The Trouble with Labels...

[sincerely_helene]

... I think it causes more damage than good, the endless hours we spend trying to define who and what we are.

I constantly see various titles such as: Dominant, Submissive, Top, Bottom, D/s, BDSM, Vanilla, Kinky, Gorean, M/s etc, etc being hurled about frivilously in an attempt to categorize where we might fit into the whole scheme of things, and all that seems accomplish is absolute confusion and isolation.

Who really cares what label we fit under? Why do we give a rat's arse who chooses to declare that we are not genuine simply because our opinion strays from their own? What is with the importance of classification that seems to consume more of our daily lives than actually fullfilling those desires?

 

[bytor2112]

... I think it causes more damage than good, the endless hours we spend trying to define who and what we are.

I constantly see various titles such as: Dominant, Submissive, Top, Bottom, D/s, BDSM, Vanilla, Kinky, Gorean, M/s etc, etc being hurled about frivilously in an attempt to categorize where we might fit into the whole scheme of things, and all that seems accomplish is absolute confusion and isolation.

Who really cares what label we fit under? Why do we give a rat's arse who chooses to declare that we are not genuine simply because our opinion strays from their own? What is with the importance of classification that seems to consume more of our daily lives than actually fullfilling those desires?

labeling make sit easier to know who the assholes are...duh...

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: The Trouble with Labels...

labeling make sit easier to know who the assholes are...duh...

so a bytor is an asshole. Ok, everyone, from now on no calling people assholes, the PC for asshole is 'a bytor'.

On the subject, I agree. I call myself a sub, but I'm sure that others might disagree. I don't care. I'll call myself whatever I want.

 

[catalina_francisco]

There is a purpose for labels, but whether people see it as negative or not, and the meanings they attach to that label, is in their own head usually. I for one needed to use and understand labels in my search for the Master who would own me....sure some did not fit with what I was looking for, but I definately did not get some people confused to the point of haviung subs reply to me hoping I was Dominant, simply because the labels defined a basic idea of who I was and who I was looking for. It also is worth noting as has been saud before, even those who protest labels are bad and should not be used, use labels every day in their life..it is unavoidable....simply saying you have a friend is applying a label....that you are male or female is a label...they serve their purpose, what people choose to make of that is then their option and needn't bring down the whole communication and english language. Of course, to not supposedly use labels then makes one a non-label user..another label.

Catalina

 

[TaintedB]

bytor's right, in the sense that what people call themselves and what they call others can frequently tell you most of you need to know about them, particularly when they use these labels with other "telling" terminology.

There are enormous gaps in peoples' philosophies, outlooks, and attitudes towards life and sexuality. Labels or descriptive words give us shortcuts--sterotypical, true, but that always happens when you use one or two words to condense an enormously complex orientation down into a form that's easily and quickly described--for describing these differences in what we enjoy and do not enjoy doing, and as such they are extremely useful. We're not all the same, not at all, and we use "labels" to help us communicate these differences to each other.

Would you go so far as to say, "Gay, straight, what does it matter, we're all people, and these labels just get in the way of pursing our desires?" If you're hetero and you pursue somebody who is completely gay because sexual labels do not matter, you might be setting yourself up for a lot of frustration and wasted time.

What I dislike about so many labels tossed around by people with sadomasochistic desires is that there are often no clear and agreed-upon meanings to these self-descriptions, and so they increase confusion rather than reducing it. I mean, if I am pursing someone of the opposite sex and they tell me, "Go away, I'm gay," the implication of the label is pretty unambigious. But when people tell me they are dominant, I cannot just take it at face value, because people define dominance in so many different ways. I have to dig much deeper to see if their definition of dominance is anything like my own. All I can tell initially when somebody says, "I'm dominant" is that they like some sort of kinky sex in some fashion. A vast ground. On the other hand, some labels used in the bdsm scene are much clearer. When someone says, "I am a sadist" or even "I am a gorean," I pretty much know, just as with "I am gay," what they're talking about, unless, of course, they are blatently lying. And that is very useful, depending upon what I am or am not looking for in a potential friend or lover.

Ah, lying! A whole other can of worms. All I want to say about that now is that people, especially when online where it's easiest to get away with it, will ascribe to themselves any label or quality no matter how far it is from their actual true selves if doing so will get them the kind of interest or attention that they crave. But I'm stating the obvious, aren't I?

Taint

 

[graceanne]

Cat - your making me dizzy! But I agree, I wasn't saying I don't use labels, because of course I do, what I was saying is that I don't care if my definition fits another persons definition. And as to other people, they can call themselves what they want, even if their definition doesn't fit mine. Because as long as they're happy, who cares?

 

[bytor2112]

Re: Re: Re: The Trouble with Labels...

so a bytor is an asshole. Ok, everyone, from now on no calling people assholes, the PC for asshole is 'a bytor'.

On the subject, I agree. I call myself a sub, but I'm sure that others might disagree. I don't care. I'll call myself whatever I want.

that wouldn't be PC...geez are you what people might label "retarded"?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Cat - your making me dizzy! But I agree, I wasn't saying I don't use labels, because of course I do, what I was saying is that I don't care if my definition fits another persons definition. And as to other people, they can call themselves what they want, even if their definition doesn't fit mine. Because as long as they're happy, who cares?

LOL, I didn't mean to aim it at anyone, but we go down this track so many times here...(I made a thread about it once before out of frustration ...https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244249)...and it is such a silly argument IMO. We use labels everyday..it is a necessity unless we want to all go around talking like we don't know anything and confusing the heck out of anyone we try to talk to. What people make of those labels is as you say, there business...we know who we are, and if anyone is looking for a relationship it sure cuts out a lot of messing about if they can vaguely label themselves and the type partner they want, not to mention what type of relationship and with which sexuality group (then I was on a mission and didn't want to waste too much time if possible ...and my desires are fulfilled daily and then some). It doesn't have to be negative or derogatory, just practical.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Trouble with Labels...

that wouldn't be PC...geez are you what people might label "retarded"?

LOL No, i'm 'special'.

 

[Netzach]

I agree with the poster in some regards though...I really think that we're turning into a community of navel-gazers, a lot of us spend more time pondering than actually doing anything...and feel like if we haven't figured out the semiotic weight of every spanking we'd better not even get spanked, or that a simple spanking that feels good should rock the foundation or our entire self-definition.

I'm not rabidly anti label, I just prefer to think of myself as a person who does
X Y Z than a person who *is* X Y Z.

 

[TaintedB]

Does XYZ and Is XYZ are bdsm labels, too. And useful ones, at least to me. I'm an Is'er. Always have been, suspect I always will, can't get away from it, no matter how much I hate identifying it with me at times. Luckily, a good part of the time I can more than tolerate it.

 

[sincerely_helene]

I think some misunderstood my posting, and that is my fault for not being more specific.

I wasn't saying "never use labels." I, of course, use them whenever necessary in my daily life. When I started this thread, my mindset was reflecting on my own past experiances and mistakes with regards to placing too much importance on who and what I was. For example, I recall coming across a post on another board titled "Am I a Submissive?" I have not yet read it, but I already have some clue that it is filled with varying ideas and definitions of what constitutes being such. Now, the person who asked the question is starting to doubt themselves because so-and-so has told them "you are only genuine if you do things MY way... otherwise you are just a <insert label here.>"

I constantly hear people shout from the highest mountain-tops "This person is not a true Master, he is just a Dom," and hear of females actually in tears because someone she doesn't know from Adam told her that she was not a slave, but in fact a 'bratty submissive'. To me, the whole scenario just sounds so ridiculous on many levels. In the grand scheme of things, is any of it really relevant to our happiness? As long as we meet that special someone who is of similar mind-set, does it really matter if other people call it the Hokey-Pokey?

Anyway, before I ramble further, I'm going to stop myself and just say a heartfelt thank you to those who replied.

 

[shy slave]

I like AA's PYL & pyl terms as this seems to cover every label apart from Bytors very special label....which comes in a variety of letters lol

 

[Betticus]

There is a purpose for labels, but whether people see it as negative or not, and the meanings they attach to that label, is in their own head usually. I for one needed to use and understand labels in my search for the Master who would own me....sure some did not fit with what I was looking for, but I definately did not get some people confused to the point of haviung subs reply to me hoping I was Dominant, simply because the labels defined a basic idea of who I was and who I was looking for. It also is worth noting as has been saud before, even those who protest labels are bad and should not be used, use labels every day in their life..it is unavoidable....simply saying you have a friend is applying a label....that you are male or female is a label...they serve their purpose, what people choose to make of that is then their option and needn't bring down the whole communication and english language. Of course, to not supposedly use labels then makes one a non-label user..another label.

Catalina

I don't care what you call yourself. I still have a desire to lick you right on your naughty bits!

And to go to the Rijksmuseum.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Yea !!! I'm with Netzach. Some of the posts recently have been serious navel gazing material & I've mentioned before that we should take a leaf out of the Gay Board & talk about what we do, not endlessly why we wish to do it. I don't really care why I'm the way I am, I just enjoy it.

 

[sincerely_helene]

(Sigh) Ok. Forget I brought it up. Take care all.

 

[shy slave]

Actually I like navel gazing, sometimes I even dig the fluff out, so keep asking Helene x

 

[MissTaken]

Depending on the purpose of the label...

A label gives someone a bit of information about you, without you having to go into great depth. I.e. I am a single mother, social worker, moderately decent writer, a hockey mom, a fisherwoman, an educator and scooter's best friend, lover, companion and Mistress.

Now, that tells you a small bit about WHAT I am, in terms of roles. WHO am will involve more discussion concerning how I translate these things into my real life. What is most important? Does single parenting mean I have two nannies and a housekeeper? Or not? What sort of social work do I do? In what context and environment? What sort of teaching do I do?

I made the mistake earlier on in my journey into BDSM of trying to fit myself into a label. After a couple of years of frustration, hurt and several attempts to leave the lifestyle, I chose to live the lifestyle in my own way, without labels, using them only to briefly describe to strangers what I hoped to learn or experience in personal ads.

In the beginning, I read and talked with many people. Being submissive seemed to be what drew me and appeared to have what I needed to be happy. I was wrong. Very wrong.

I switched for a while and now am in a space wherein I can tell you, if you really want the tip of the iceburg, I am a bisexual
Dominant female who enjoys a bit of maso activity, once in a while. Taking this statement at face value, what do you really know about me? Not a lot, but enough to start a conversation.

Done with my rambling now. Who put on the coffee?

 

[MissTaken]

(Sigh) Ok. Forget I brought it up. Take care all.

Gee, I hope she comes back.

I feel like getting into this discussion.

I have discussed my views on labels before, but as I grow and as my experiences give my mind added stimuli, I find my views here at lit and in life, do change.

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by sincerely_helene
(Sigh) Ok. Forget I brought it up. Take care all.

Hey, don't take it personally! There are always people in any discussion forum who are strongly opposed to self-examination. And it can make them uncomfortable when others of us engage in "navel gazing." They have their reasons for it, good and bad, no doubt. But there's also always a contingent of people who enjoy self- and other observation, who love speculating on the whys of behavior, thought and speech. We'll talk your ear off about such stuff, so don't let the members in the opposite camp get you down.

Let me go a bit further and say that i f someone doesn't like to "navel gaze" (snort!) they have no business being in a "navel-gazing" thread telling the rest of us that self-inquiry is stupid. It's just plain rude, as the assumption behind such comments is totally anal and socially sheeplike idea that there are "proper" and kewl topics of discussion (what we do) and "improper" unknewl ones (why we do it). I call beeelshit.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Lighten up people, it was a generic comment, not directed at anyone in particular, but in agreement with another poster. I doubt very much if Netzach is uncomfortable with self examination, any more than I am.

As to labels, they are descriptive words, nothing more. I find the words to fit who & what I am, I don't try to bend myself to fit various words and don't understand those who cause themselves suffering & angst trying to do so.

Understanding the journey that brought you to the place you are & formed the person that you are is great, but it should be the key to self acceptance, not continual worry & grief as so often expressed.

Stop worrying about it all & start to enjoy who you are. Don't beat yourselves up when there are many who will be happy to do it for you & make it pleasurable too.

 

[sincerely_helene]

You are all very correct, and I am not certain why I got so defensive. I suppose I am just frusterated in general, because I sometimes look back at posts I have composed, and conversations I have tried to have with people, and I think I am far too intense for this world. No one seems to understand why I have this need to anal-ize things to death.

I love boards like this, because it offers me a chance to learn about the physical attributes of BDSM/kink, and I sincerely do appeciate threads about intricate rope bondage and the latest popular toy, but I also have to admit that my personal interests are driven more towards the psychological aspects.

My gratitude once again to all who have taken the time to indulge me with their replies, even despite the somewhat mundane nature of the query.

Miss Taken, you run a fine board. My comment may have simply been PMS derived.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Hi Helene. I think the psychological aspects of our kink are the best thing, probably more important to us than the actual physical acts as I can't enjoy them without the right mindset and I'd guess that this is quite common amongst us.

I just no longer feel the need to analize & verbalize all the little incidents during my life which may or may not have led to my being a submissive. What is important is that I happily accept that I am and that I enjoy it without guilt or trying to pin the blame on anyone or anything in the past.

What we sometimes forget is that we are just people in relationships, no more, no less. We are not immune to normal emotions & the pain, fear & suffering that any relationship may cause at any given time. Nor should we deny ourselves the joy, pleasure & satisfaction we may find. Over dramatising every little incident to find the reason "why" suggests that deep down there is still a feeling, even amongst our own kind, that it must be wrong to enjoy this life. Our kink in itself doesn't cause any additional problems for us. We may or may not choose the right life partner no matter who or what we are, but it must be even more difficult if there is little self acceptance in the first place.

 

[Netzach]

Hey, don't take it personally! There are always people in any discussion forum who are strongly opposed to self-examination. And it can make them uncomfortable when others of us engage in "navel gazing." They have their reasons for it, good and bad, no doubt. But there's also always a contingent of people who enjoy self- and other observation, who love speculating on the whys of behavior, thought and speech. We'll talk your ear off about such stuff, so don't let the members in the opposite camp get you down.

Let me go a bit further and say that i f someone doesn't like to "navel gaze" (snort!) they have no business being in a "navel-gazing" thread telling the rest of us that self-inquiry is stupid. It's just plain rude, as the assumption behind such comments is totally anal and socially sheeplike idea that there are "proper" and kewl topics of discussion (what we do) and "improper" unknewl ones (why we do it). I call beeelshit.

Christ.

To make me sound like some unreflective "let's just fuck" dolt is really quite the irony, considering that I tend to be incredibly analytical, to a fault.

I just think that there's an overriding tendency to never get past asking why, I find it really sad when someone can't allow themself to experiment for fear of having to re-define themself for every experimentation or for every minor limit they may realize on the journey.

I'm sick of people being told they aren't really submissive or they aren't really Dominant like the teller has found the magic key of authenticity that lets them decide.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Amen.