The Trouble With Boys

[elsol]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

It's interesting because there was an article a few years ago that pretty much said the same thing but was not taken seriously.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[3113]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

It's interesting because there was an article a few years ago that pretty much said the same thing but was not taken seriously.

Hey, I take it seriously, but the first thing that struck me was part about the teacher struggling with 40 students. Whatever special needs any student has, including boys at that age, is never going to be met and addressed by a teacher with 40 students. Knock it down to 15 for every teacher and a good deal of the problem is solved.

As it is now, giving the teacher info on how to help boys ain't going to change anything. Teachers are too exhausted, too taken for granted, and too underpaid. Teachers need significantly less students, more respect in the classroom, support from parents and more money.

 

[Guest]

Hey, I take it seriously, but the first thing that struck me was part about the teacher struggling with 40 students. Whatever special needs any student has, including boys at that age, is never going to be met and addressed by a teacher with 40 students. Knock it down to 15 for every teacher and a good deal of the problem is solved.

As it is now, giving the teacher info on how to help boys ain't going to change anything. Teachers are too exhausted, too taken for granted, and too underpaid. Teachers need significantly less students, more respect in the classroom, support from parents and more money.

*Gasp!*

Don't let amicus hear you say that!


But yes - I completely agree. With your entire post. Well said.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Amen to 3113. Whether the issue is gender, emotional issues, intellectual level, learning disability, or other problems, no student can receive the specialized attention s/he needs in a class of forty with one teacher.

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

40:1 is an obscene student:teacher ratio with or without "special needs."

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Boys are biologically, developmentally and psychologically different from girls—

a-freaking-men!!!! (all puns intended!)

and I agree with you about teachers not being able to address the problem... but my solution would be different... (see education reform thread lol)...

I can tell you from personal experience that boys are kinesthetic learners as a general rule, they thrive with a hands-on approach, they are problem-solvers and LOVE a challenge...

 

[Norajane]

This caught my attention:

One of the most reliable predictors of whether a boy will succeed or fail in high school rests on a single question: does he have a man in his life to look up to? Too often, the answer is no. High rates of divorce and single motherhood have created a generation of fatherless boys. In every kind of neighborhood, rich or poor, an increasing number of boys—now a startling 40 percent—are being raised without their biological dads.

Psychologists say that grandfathers and uncles can help, but emphasize that an adolescent boy without a father figure is like an explorer without a map.

Does divorce automatically equal a lack of a father in a kid's life? Where do the dads go?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Does divorce automatically equal a lack of a father in a kid's life? Where do the dads go?

Out of the house. That cuts several hours a day of interaction time immediately. Yes, there are weekend visits and shared days, but it's just not possible to get as many hours with both parents in when they are not living in the same home.

It's rather like the question of "where does the money go?" - i.e., why is divorce so commonly a fast-track to lower socio-economic status? For starters, the same amount of money is now paying for rent on two seperate dwellings. That's a huge bite out of any budget.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Does divorce automatically equal a lack of a father in a kid's life? Where do the dads go?

this highlights the importance of community....
and of course brings up things like rites of passage and initiations...
boys need all of this to become men... and they aren't getting it...

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

To some limited extent, however, we are not a primitive, superstitious society that needs some formal ritual. Instead, what we need is mandatory militia duty. That will give youths a sense of community, civic duty, and manhood. It worked for the Romans and Greeks, and the former had a LOT of divorces. I would suggest 1 year between high school and college, plus paramilitary training as a part of high school. There should be a heavy emphasis on Physical Training, including challenging sports like repelling.

 

[Norajane]

To some limited extent, however, we are not a primitive, superstitious society that needs some formal ritual. Instead, what we need is mandatory militia duty. That will give youths a sense of community, civic duty, and manhood. It worked for the Romans and Greeks, and the former had a LOT of divorces. I would suggest 1 year between high school and college, plus paramilitary training as a part of high school. There should be a heavy emphasis on Physical Training, including challenging sports like repelling.

Are you recommending this just for boys, or all youth, girls included?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Are you recommending this just for boys, or all youth, girls included?

Primarily with boys in mind, but it wouldn't hurt girls, either. After all, you have equal rights, so equal responsibilities should follow logically.

 

[entitled]

Primarily with boys in mind, but it wouldn't hurt girls, either. After all, you have equal rights, so equal responsibilities should follow logically.

On that same note, why not require at least a year of individual household duties? Either learn to cook and clean yourself or starve to death/die of disease caused by your own grime/whatever.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

In case you weren't aware, most military duty involves KP at some point, so that would already be covered.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

To some limited extent, however, we are not a primitive, superstitious society that needs some formal ritual. Instead, what we need is mandatory militia duty.

It couldn't hurt.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Personally, I'd rather see more focus on recognizing that there are many types of learners - visual, auditory, kinesthetic, etc. - and less on which gender they're likely to be. Yes, boys are more highly correlated with kinesthetic, but that's not going to be much comfort to those boys who are more visual learners if we lump them all into one group.

I think it would be intriguing to have some sort of testing at different ages to help students and teachers recognize how each student learns best. I wonder what the results would be of grouping students by learning type rather than by level of academic achievement. Might be interesting. Of course, that would take us back to the same issue, though - the need for considerably smaller classes.

 

[BlackShanglan]

To some limited extent, however, we are not a primitive, superstitious society that needs some formal ritual. Instead, what we need is mandatory militia duty. That will give youths a sense of community, civic duty, and manhood. It worked for the Romans and Greeks, and the former had a LOT of divorces. I would suggest 1 year between high school and college, plus paramilitary training as a part of high school. There should be a heavy emphasis on Physical Training, including challenging sports like repelling.

I'm curious to know what this would accomplish that the PE classes and high school ROTC doesn't?

 

[entitled]

In case you weren't aware, most military duty involves KP at some point, so that would already be covered.

In case you weren't aware, KP is specialized in cooking/cleanup for masses of people, not individuals. It also doesn't prepare a person for things such as parenthood, doesn't teach them how to get along in society outside of the military, or a number of other things.

i'm not discrediting your idea, though as a conscientious objector i would not allow it to happen with my children, i'm just saying that if everybody should be required to do something seen as a 'manly' occupation for a year, the same should be done with a 'womanly' occupation.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I think it would be intriguing to have some sort of testing at different ages to help students and teachers recognize how each student learns best. I wonder what the results would be of grouping students by learning type rather than by level of academic achievement. Might be interesting. Of course, that would take us back to the same issue, though - the need for considerably smaller classes.

I worked in a high school... all the kids took a "learning style" test... teachers were supposed to do something with them... of course, they couldn't... too many kids... so it was just another useless expense (they had to order the tests and send them out to be scored) in order for schools to look like they're actually addressing a problem...

I agree with you about gender as well... not ALL boys are kinesthetic learners... some girls ARE... individual instruction would cut that corner entirely... *shrug*

 

[BlackShanglan]

I worked in a high school... all the kids took a "learning style" test... teachers were supposed to do something with them... of course, they couldn't... too many kids... so it was just another useless expense (they had to order the tests and send them out to be scored) in order for schools to look like they're actually addressing a problem...

I agree with you about gender as well... not ALL boys are kinesthetic learners... some girls ARE... individual instruction would cut that corner entirely... *shrug*

*nod* Agreed. All the testing in the world doesn't help if there's no time in which to apply the results.

I don't think we're really all that far apart on education. I agree that more individualized attention and smaller classes are key; I just don't think that home schooling is economically viable for enough people to replace public education.

Hmmm. I wonder ... what if a voucher-based system was more flexible? What if you could use an educational voucher for just some classes if you liked - if, for example, it had been some years since you did calculus - and the rest of it (or all of it, if no classes) for child care or at-home learning materials?

*ponders*

I forsee a bureaucratic nightmare in attempting to keep that from becoming "boost your income by not educating your children!" But hmmm ... is there a way to oversee such a program as to make it workable? Let home-schooling parents invest some of the money that the state was going to spend on their children anyway?

 

[elsol]

To some limited extent, however, we are not a primitive, superstitious society that needs some formal ritual. Instead, what we need is mandatory militia duty. That will give youths a sense of community, civic duty, and manhood. It worked for the Romans and Greeks, and the former had a LOT of divorces. I would suggest 1 year between high school and college, plus paramilitary training as a part of high school. There should be a heavy emphasis on Physical Training, including challenging sports like repelling.

*burp*

So you want to draft 5 year old boys...

Last time, I checked you needed to be 18 to enlist... at that point, you're trying to fix the problem, not prevent it.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I forsee a bureaucratic nightmare in attempting to keep that from becoming "boost your income by not educating your children!" But hmmm ... is there a way to oversee such a program as to make it workable? Let home-schooling parents invest some of the money that the state was going to spend on their children anyway?

*nodding*
yep....

it's the nightmare of public schools... but I can forsee it happening... and not just homeschooling, but homeschooling co-ops (which I am a part of)... they can band together and become "schools" in their own right... serving a local community...

the issue I have with the prevention of the "boost your income by not educating your children!" problem is governmental control and regulation... that opens a whole other pandora's box... and puts back into my lap all the things I took my kids out of schools for in the first place...

on that point, I probably lean closer to Amicus...

 

[rgraham666]

Don't bet that having a father around will help.

Mine sure didn't. I tried for years to meet the goals he set for me. I was an adult before I realised there was no way I could. The few times I met a goal, he changed it or his attitude was, "Ask me if I fucking care?"

Perhaps the single most important thing a child needs, any child, is a sense of hope. Without hope, they're not going to bother to try and who can blame them.

 

[BlackShanglan]

*nodding*
yep....

it's the nightmare of public schools... but I can forsee it happening... and not just homeschooling, but homeschooling co-ops (which I am a part of)... they can band together and become "schools" in their own right... serving a local community...

the issue I have with the prevention of the "boost your income by not educating your children!" problem is governmental control and regulation... that opens a whole other pandora's box... and puts back into my lap all the things I took my kids out of schools for in the first place...

on that point, I probably lean closer to Amicus...

*nods* Well, that's the devil's bargain. One can generally either have no money from anyone else and no interference, or funding from an outside source who gets a say in how it's spent. Personally, I think it's fine for people to opt out of getting the money themselves; I just don't think it's possible for enough people to do that to make dismantling public education a good goal.

As for government oversight ... hmmm. I saw back and forth on that issue. True, raising and educating one's children is a very personal thing. But it would be odd if, given the vast range of competencies that humans display at all other tasks, this was the one thing that every parent could inherently do right. I suspect it's not. I suspect that, like other tasks, education is a task that people perform at a variety of skill levels, and that some education about education and some training in it are useful to developing a good educational program.

I do believe that home schooling offers other advantages that should be weighed against that; the individual focus, hands-on applications, and emotional bond with the instructor are very good things. However, I think it's reasonable to consider whether a home-schooling program will inevitably teach a student what s/he needs to move on to higher education (if desired) or a trade substantially different to the instructor's. Most people are fairly good at teaching what they know, but one worries about fields with which the instructor is less familiar.

I suppose that that is where I wonder if governmental standards have some place - in helping to ensure that students get a broad education that doesn't limit itself too closely to the tastes and talents of the instuctor. I think co-ops a good answer to that as well, though, if they've got some good thought behind them; pooling knowledge, resources, and social contacts seems like a good way to function.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Well, that's the devil's bargain.

yep... it's the reason I won't bill insurance as a psychologist and insist on out of out-of-pocket payment... and the reason, as a doula, I don't want insurance companies to start paying for our services...