The Thin Dark Line

[catalina_francisco]

First, for the ones who were wondering, I finished my game and the sequel, so I am back on the board.

There is a topic which I am not sure has been dealt with before, but I thought would be interesting to discuss, how to deal with previous relationships. IMO there has to be a balance between understanding and helping to overcome issues concerning previous relationships and having the submissive answer the needs of the Dominant.

IMHO there exists a paradox in dealing with former relationships in BDSM. On the one hand the needs of the Dominant need to be answered, and on the other hand we have the issues of former partners which will keep arising if not dealt with. Of course not every partnership has issues with previous relationships, and I am talking here out of the viewpoint of a male Dominant.

So how do we as Dominants remain strong, and at the same time open ourselves enough to be able to help our partner?

For me, in any relationship and especially in a BDSM one the involved parties have the right to have their feelings validated. Although it is not fair to expect your partner to deal with the burden of dealing with the hurt caused by previous relationships, it is a fact of life we will have to. If a cancer is left untreated the result is certain. However the willingness to help your partner deal with previous relationships is seen by some as weakness.

When and how do we cross the thin dark line between understanding and weakness?

Francisco.

 

[Kataklysm]

I'm doing this now. It is nearly impossible for me to discuss with my potential Sir. I understand his want to know and to see just how much this will effect our relationship but for me it's like running a marathon to talk about. I was told that perhaps this D/s relationship will help me better understand the previous one. I am skeptical. I think the line is crossed when the right to know becomes an interrogation and it easily could be. I don't see how wanting to help your partner as a sign of weakness, even though the truth could be painful for both. It's commendable.

 

[Kajira Callista]

First, for the ones who were wondering, I finished my game and the sequel, so I am back on the board.

There is a topic which I am not sure has been dealt with before, but I thought would be interesting to discuss, how to deal with previous relationships. IMO there has to be a balance between understanding and helping to overcome issues concerning previous relationships and having the submissive answer the needs of the Dominant.

IMHO there exists a paradox in dealing with former relationships in BDSM. On the one hand the needs of the Dominant need to be answered, and on the other hand we have the issues of former partners which will keep arising if not dealt with. Of course not every partnership has issues with previous relationships, and I am talking here out of the viewpoint of a male Dominant.

So how do we as Dominants remain strong, and at the same time open ourselves enough to be able to help our partner?

For me, in any relationship and especially in a BDSM one the involved parties have the right to have their feelings validated. Although it is not fair to expect your partner to deal with the burden of dealing with the hurt caused by previous relationships, it is a fact of life we will have to. If a cancer is left untreated the result is certain. However the willingness to help your partner deal with previous relationships is seen by some as weakness.

When and how do we cross the thin dark line between understanding and weakness?

Francisco.

I know this question was directed towards Dominants but how could it be a weakness if by helping someone over come those things you make your relationship stronger and deeper. Also you would have a better understanding of reactions to things pertaining to your relationship with the knowledge of her past, makes you better equiped to deal with things that may arise?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello Kataklysm and Kajira Callista,

Having undergone a similar process from the Dominant point of view in my previous relationship, it was seen as a weakness. My willingness to help and try to understand ended up quite a lot of times in an argument. This is where it becomes very difficult for a Dominant, it is quite easy for us to punish and correct that behaviour but by doing so we close the communication line, and in not correcting the behaviour we are allowing behaviour which is not desirable.

My reaction was not to punish but try to keep the lines open, however in the end I had to correct the behaviour because my negligence in dealing with the disrespect polluted the core of our understanding of each other. In my current relationship I have been very lucky and been able to draw on previous experience, and also as Catalina is more experienced in dealing with this kind of issue than I am, I have been drawing on her understanding and knowledge in dealing with difficult relational issues.

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Alot easier said then done. But this is an important thing. I try to do it and i know its hard, but never bring left over baggage into a new relationship. In my opinion its not fair to the other person and it makes problems on top of problems. Every one is different and it is hard to let that guard down from the last wound but i think if you can, its well worth it. Just my two cents. It happened its done move on is how i look at it

 

[navarre]

So how do we as Dominants remain strong, and at the same time open ourselves enough to be able to help our partner?

For me, in any relationship and especially in a BDSM one the involved parties have the right to have their feelings validated. Although it is not fair to expect your partner to deal with the burden of dealing with the hurt caused by previous relationships, it is a fact of life we will have to. If a cancer is left untreated the result is certain. However the willingness to help your partner deal with previous relationships is seen by some as weakness.

When and how do we cross the thin dark line between understanding and weakness?

Francisco.

When we show strength; strength of mind, strength of emotion, strength of soul, we then cross that thin dark line into the realm of helping our partner.

By using our strength we not only deal with past problems from previous relationships, but we strengthen our current relationship as well, as Callista has said.

I cannot in any way see how helping your partner could be seen as a sign of weakness. It is only a sign of strength.

 

[FungiUg]

So how do we as Dominants remain strong, and at the same time open ourselves enough to be able to help our partner?

When and how do we cross the thin dark line between understanding and weakness?

I can't say I have ever run into "understanding" being viewed as a weakness. One of my strengths as a Dominant is my ability to empathise and to understand. So... I'm afraid I miss the point of why this is a weakness.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Maybe I should give some examples to visualize the point, and by the way I am not saying understanding is a weakness.

Example 1:
Your partner is talking with their ex, their ex is stirring trouble in the current relationship, what do you do? Forbid your partner to talk with their ex, or try to talk it out?

Example 2:
What do you do when your partner keeps expecting you to behave in a particular way since that is what they are used to and every time you do not, it ends up in a row?

Example 3:
What if your partner has been abused in previous relationships, and because of it she can not comply to one of the rules previously agreed.

Example 4:
The previous relationship has made your partner very cautious in trusting current partners, for example the ex has stolen money?

Example 5:
In the previous relationship your partner was forced (raped) to drink or eat the semen and now they can not drink or eat yours?

Of course we need to deal with the issues of the past, but how far do we bend our own rules for it and how much leeway do you give your partner. What if because of being too understanding the relationship, slowly starts to become vanilla? What if because of it, your own needs are not being answered? It is all very good to say we need to understand and help them deal with previous problems, but what if because of it we are not getting out of the relationship what we need? How far do you take the caring before drawing the line, especially when it becomes obvious that although your submissive appreciates and wants the understanding, they also begin to feel you are weak in not being tougher on them and their behaviour?

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Maybe I should give some examples to visualize the point, and by the way I am not saying understanding is a weakness.

Example 1:
Your partner is talking with their ex, their ex is stirring trouble in the current relationship, what do you do? Forbid your partner to talk with their ex, or try to talk it out?

Example 2:
What do you do when your partner keeps expecting you to behave in a particular way since that is what they are used to and every time you do not, it ends up in a row?

Example 3:
What if your partner has been abused in previous relationships, and because of it she can not comply to one of the rules previously agreed.

Example 4:
The previous relationship has made your partner very cautious in trusting current partners, for example the ex has stolen money?

Example 5:
In the previous relationship your partner was forced (raped) to drink or eat the semen and now they can not drink or eat yours?

Of course we need to deal with the issues of the past, but how far do we bend our own rules for it and how much leeway do you give your partner. What if because of being too understanding the relationship, slowly starts to become vanilla? What if because of it, your own needs are not being answered? It is all very good to say we need to understand and help them deal with previous problems, but what if because of it we are not getting out of the relationship what we need? How far do you take the caring before drawing the line, especially when it becomes obvious that although your submissive appreciates and wants the understanding, they also begin to feel you are weak in not being tougher on them and their behaviour?

Francisco.

These seem to all be issues that the partner has...bringing unwanted baggage into the relationship.I would say that her issues would have to be addressed and she should actually have some more care and concern for her Dom. if she cant give because of things that happened in the past...is she really ready and able to be submissive to someone? From the examples ...i would say she isnt giving herself to that Dominant at all because the last one is still controlling her actions and behavior.

 

[Princessintrng]

Strength or Weakness

I could almost be the submissive you speak about in your post. In all the relationships I have been in, my kindness, loving and giving nature were considered a weakness and were taken advantage of. What I had to do was accept that there were people in this world who did not have the strength of character to accept all I gave and not take advantage. Does this mean that all prospective partners will be the same? No, but I did have to make changes in myself and fix issues with me so that I was in a position to see and understand the qualities I was looking for in a partner. If you are willing to help her work through the issues of her past and most importantly she is willing to let you help her, I believe it will create an even stronger bond between you two. But she has to be willing to accept your help and certainly she has to be ready to let go and start healing. Just my humble opinion.

 

[catalina_francisco]

In my current relationship I have been very lucky and been able to draw on previous experience, and also as Catalina is more experienced in dealing with this kind of issue than I am, I have been drawing on her understanding and knowledge in dealing with difficult relational issues.

Francisco.

I thank my darling Master for crediting me with more experience in relationship issues, but he is as usual ever humble and underestimating his own special abilities which lend much to our relationship and life in many ways. I may have professional experience, but as most professionals will tell you, dealiong with your own issues are just not the same because of your closeness and emotional connection to the problem.

We are fortunate we have learned many things from previous relationships and life, and though we do not have the issues mentioned in this thread, we have our own ups and downs which he never ceases to amaze me with his caring, insightful responses to. IMHO every relationship will have it's difficulties, and a choice of responses which may be applied...knowing what the best response is remains the difficult part. One of the most common areas of difficulty, and the appropriate choices most likely to succeed, are around boundaries, knowing what to leave behind from the past relationship, and what to bring to the present one, knowing where one ends and the other begins. The lines become so easily blurred.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

If she as at A, and you want her at Z, that leaves a lot of room in the middle. I would be patient, and go for small victories with a lot of positive reinforcement. If she hits a wall because of past abuse, professional counseling would be an option.

 

[s'lara]

Welcome back Francisco Sir.

Tough ... tough topic.

It is incredibly easy to say that any past damage done will/should not travel to a new relationship. If the previous relationship was devoid of any such damage then yes ... it will be easy to move forward with little or no painful emotional remnants to take into the new relationship.

However, if the the previous relationship was one where the parties involved formed a deep bond which slowly disintegrated over time and ended badly, causing harm (emotional/mental) to the sub and Dominant, the transition into a new relationship will not be easy ... period. The difficulty lies in how to deal with a) the submissive who was scarred, b) how to effectively heal any such wounds without losing a position of strength, but also allowing the submissive the time and space to overcome his/her past issues and c) bringing the submissive to point of strength in the current relationship with a firm and gentle hand.

Communication is key as has been stated. i also believe maintaining a stance as Dominant (primary) and confidante is very important. i believe it must be tough to mix the two successfully as it would require a certain amount of impartiality that is not always achievable with someone you love.

Flexibilty is always helpful. If the Dominant is patient and creative, some of the more difficult tasks expected from the submissive can be obtained with some time and unconventional methods.

Bottom line, while it is necessary to offer understanding and assistance to a submissive who has been hurt from a previous relationship, there should also be a steady showing of strength and consistency in the Dominant's actions which will help anchor the submissive when he/she begins to spin from past wounds.

Finally, any severe mental or emotional damage should be handled by a professional. There are many kink-aware professionals to whom the Dominant can bring His/Her submissive and with the help of the professional, it is possible the submissive's recovery will be a safe and healthy one.

lara

 

[sweetbea]

Originally posted by WriterDom
If she as at A, and you want her at Z, that leaves a lot of room in the middle. I would be patient, and go for small victories with a lot of positive reinforcement. If she hits a wall because of past abuse, professional counseling would be an option.

I agree with WD here. There is quite a difference between helping someone overcome their issues and just letting them off the hook.

Lets use your example here...

Example 5:
In the previous relationship your partner was forced (raped) to drink or eat the semen and now they can not drink or eat yours?

When a traumatic experience occurs, a person will likely shy away from any activity that reminds them of the trauma. This sub is afraid to swallow your cum. Fine. Don't force her. If someone tries to force me to do something that I am afraid of, I will become even more adamant about avoiding it. I think that a situation like this requires a lot of figurative hand holding. Start slowly. Talk about the situation. Explain to her that this will eventually be something that you will want her to do. But assure her that you won't have her do it immediately, or before you think she is ready. Maybe try to lay out some timelines. Say "within the next 6 months, I want you to be able to do this." (or whatever time period you feel necessary). Have her perform oral sex with your assurance that you will NOT cum in her mouth. When she is comfortable with this for awhile, move on. Possibly to tasting your cum after the fact. Taste it from your finger. Clean you up after sex. But nothing too intense. Use lots of praise. Let her know how much you appreciate her crossing a barrier. It will make her feel good to know how much she's pleased you and she will want to do it again. Slowly build up to more and more tasting. Then gradually move into cumming in her mouth. But always use positive reinforcement and reassurance. Everyone will be happy in the long run. You weren't weak, you got what you wanted, but while still being understanding of her issues.

 

[cellis]

A very good topic, Francisco.

It is my personal belief that we are the sum total of all that we have experienced, but Dominants and submissives. I think we look for those which will compliment that part of us. If there is trauma or abuse then we will sometimes seek those that will perpetuate those things. Or we seek to find those that will help us health.

I was in the mental health field for many years and I never met anyone who was without their own baggage... The difference being some of us carry overnight bags and some of us carry garbage bags...

 

[SierraMoon]

If i'm reading all this correctly, then i am opposite what you are speaking of.... i'm a submissive who had a bad BDSM relationship in the past. i thought i had to accept whatever he did to me, and let him continue to do bad things to me.

With my present Dom, i don't ask for understanding, but to help me replace the memories of the past with new, better memories.

Let me state an example: With ex Dom, he used to beat me with his belt. i'm not talking about any kind of sensual taps. i mean really hit me, all over my body. This last time i was with my present Dom, he used his belt on me (something that i had asked for a long time ago, to help show me that it doesn't have to be a bad experience. ). i absolutely loved it! He was careful, but not easy. He did use it as if he meant it, but i believe the difference was that i knew that he cared for me, and it made it ok.

Maybe that is the secret? The Dominant showing that they care, not just understand?

 

[Kajira Callista]

If i'm reading all this correctly, then i am opposite what you are speaking of.... i'm a submissive who had a bad BDSM relationship in the past. i thought i had to accept whatever he did to me, and let him continue to do bad things to me.

With my present Dom, i don't ask for understanding, but to help me replace the memories of the past with new, better memories.

Let me state an example: With ex Dom, he used to beat me with his belt. i'm not talking about any kind of sensual taps. i mean really hit me, all over my body. This last time i was with my present Dom, he used his belt on me (something that i had asked for a long time ago, to help show me that it doesn't have to be a bad experience. ). i absolutely loved it! He was careful, but not easy. He did use it as if he meant it, but i believe the difference was that i knew that he cared for me, and it made it ok.

Maybe that is the secret? The Dominant showing that they care, not just understand?

I agree Sierra, helping her regain that trust she lost would be helping her grow. A Dominants responsiblity(in my opinion only), not a weakness at all.

 

[ethereal~minx]

I had trust issues and also lingering reactions to previous physical abuse.... to overcome such issues, I was nurtured like a child~ with patience and unconditional love--- even at my outbursts of emotion that even I didn't understand~~~ there was soo much fear shrouding my reality that it took a long time to get down to the truth of the matter. This took years. (it was a vanilla relationship)

a person with such deep issues because of a prev relationship or relationships~needs nurturing to be healed...

I don't think my question would be ~is continued 'help' is weak but rather, do I want this type of relationship~~~ do I want to be this persons rock, their unconditional loving parental figure or do I want a different type of relationship.. a relationship with someone that knows their value, their worth, with a person that owns their own power...

 

[ethereal~minx]

this happened to me~ my boyfriend was continually 'keeping the peace' with his ex... so much so that it was making me feel she was more important than me~~ his continued 'giving in' at his expense and ours~ his passive-aggressive behavior was not only damaging our current relationship but also causing him to live ~out of his integrity~ he desperately wanted things to change, he didn't want to continue being her crutch but he didn't have the awareness that there was another way. What helped the situation in our relationship was that I expressed my feelings ...I explained my perspective of the dynamic they shared and because of our mutual respect for eachother~~rather than me telling him 'NO MORE' as if forbidding him... we were able to overcome that issue or at least lessen it's impact on us and grow individually and together through the experience at the same time...

I win/you lose only works to a certain extent then the bottom falls out~~ 'no lose' is about cooperation & mutual respect & care for the other person~~~~~~~ it has longer lasting affects, building deepened trust and intimacy etc...

 

[catalina_francisco]

All very good postings and all very interesting, I agree with most, if not all which has been said. I see how much I have missed the intelligent intercourse we all can have on Lit.

To me the difficulty lies in how far you should go with the understanding. Let me clarify, to me D/s is a symbiotic relationship where both parties get out of it what they need. Of course it is all a matter of giving and taking but again to me it is the submissive that is supposed to give the most, adjust her lifestyle to please the Dominant. It is quite normal for the Dominant to help the submissive overcome problems and guide the sub into becoming what the Dominant wants. And I know lots of you out there disagree with me on this.

I also found a lot of wisdom and careful thoughts in s'lara’s posts, and also something I fully agree with. I do feel it is important for the Dominant to radiate confidence, strength and consistency and have found in the past that being too helpful, too understanding has diluted that radiance, the more confidence a sub has in the Dom the easier it is for the sub to conform and please the Dom. (again only my opinion). Have you ever heard that nagging voice in your head, ‘Is he doing this out of understanding or because he is weak’?

Coming back now to sweetbea’s, and to a degree also SierraMoon’s postings, this is more what I expect from a Dominant, yes the sub might have problems and issues with something, but that is not a reason not to perform that act. It is just a matter of carefully guiding and allowing the sub to grow slowly into the ability of doing it.

If I may ‘misquote’ ethereal~minx, the situation described in em's posting is exactly what I find difficult. An understanding Dom might allow the sub to communicate with the ex, even if this is extremely difficult and painful to the Dom. In the past and even with Catalina I have forbidden my subs to talk or communicate with their ex, call it jealousy call it insecurity; call it whatever you want, but I find that it makes life a lot easier. Of course I explain to them my reasons but it comes down to this, I am the Dom and I make my rules.

Cellis I could not agree more with you, we all carry our own baggage and sometimes we need someone to help us carry the heavy load or help us unpack some of the less pleasant souvenirs we have pick up during our travels.

Francisco.

 

[ethereal~minx]

...If I may ‘misquote’ ethereal~minx, the situation described in em's posting is exactly what I find difficult. An understanding Dom might allow the sub to communicate with the ex, even if this is extremely difficult and painful to the Dom. In the past and even with Catalina I have forbidden my subs to talk or communicate with their ex, call it jealousy call it insecurity; call it whatever you want, but I find that it makes life a lot easier. Of course I explain to them my reasons but it comes down to this, I am the Dom and I make my rules. ...
Francisco. [/B]

I didn't mean to imply a Dom that asserts his "I am the Dom and I make my rules" is any less understanding than one that allows the sub to continue doing something that affects him emotionally. I would think that the Dom would have given the situation enough objective consideration (and expressed such) so that when that fact is stated, it is heard and respected~ I wouldn't think the Dom was asserting this power at the sub's expense, loss, or just to do so but rather because it was in the best interests of the sub and therefore the relationship... that's where trust is crucial.

I believe in a d/s relationship~ both the dominant and the submissive recognize and acknowledge that one cannot exist without the other~~~~ and therefore value eachother's perspective. My addition to this thread was based on this belief.

 

[FungiUg]

Example 1:
Your partner is talking with their ex, their ex is stirring trouble in the current relationship, what do you do? Forbid your partner to talk with their ex, or try to talk it out?

It would pay to be understanding for this one -- and yes, it has happened in my current relationship. Basically you need to balance the need for clear thinking about the relationship, and at the same time the biased viewpoints of ex's and friends. So patience, honesty and clarity -- communication.

I think were you to forbid the communication, it could be viewed as the thin edge of the wedge... a relationship should be based on the partners positively wanting to be together, and not on restrictions. The better approach is to open the communication, and let your partner see what his or her ex is doing.

When you think about it, an ex isn't really competition -- since they are already past, whereas you are present. So it's just a matter of communicating to keep perspective.

Example 2:
What do you do when your partner keeps expecting you to behave in a particular way since that is what they are used to and every time you do not, it ends up in a row?

Expectations. Again, met by understanding and communicating. If you are repeatedly fighting over one issue, then there's something there that needs to be sorted out, and perhaps addressed through a mediator or after "time out" so that you're not dealing with it in the heat of the moment.

Example 3:
What if your partner has been abused in previous relationships, and because of it she can not comply to one of the rules previously agreed.

Expectations the other way. Once again, understanding and communication to the fore. An example that springs to mind would be "play rape" scening with someone who has been raped in reality. Anyway, this is a modification of limits, limits are (after all) dynamic, and once the dominant knows there is an issue here, they can usually work towards what they want. So understanding the issue is the key towards getting the desired outcome.

Example 4:
The previous relationship has made your partner very cautious in trusting current partners, for example the ex has stolen money?

I think this is just another example of the last one. That's a form of abuse -- in this case, an abuse of trust. Money issues are always something that have to be sorted out for each unique relationship anyway.

Example 5:
In the previous relationship your partner was forced (raped) to drink or eat the semen and now they can not drink or eat yours?

We're back to another example of #3.

Of course we need to deal with the issues of the past, but how far do we bend our own rules for it and how much leeway do you give your partner. What if because of being too understanding the relationship, slowly starts to become vanilla? What if because of it, your own needs are not being answered? It is all very good to say we need to understand and help them deal with previous problems, but what if because of it we are not getting out of the relationship what we need? How far do you take the caring before drawing the line, especially when it becomes obvious that although your submissive appreciates and wants the understanding, they also begin to feel you are weak in not being tougher on them and their behaviour?

Well... there's no real answer to this. How far are you as an individual prepared to bend your own rules? How flexible are you? How important is this relationship to you?

Your own needs not being answered is rather critical -- if they are not, you at least need to know you are working towards them. For example, my lover is not submissive, but I know we are working towards finding another submissive we can share. So I can cope with that. On the other hand, were she not prepared to share a submissive with me or allow me to own/play with a submissive by myself, then that would be time to seriously re-evaluate staying in the relationship.

I think while you do need to understand and care and communicate with your partner, there is no guarantee that you won't meet issues/differences that can't be resolved to mutual satisfaction. Then it comes down to a judgement call over how important that issue truly is.

So in all of this, I see understanding and empathy to enabling the growth in a relationship -- rather than someone who is rigid and unprepared to change, so a relationship would shatter the first time something doesn't work. Again, I come back to that understanding being a strength, far from a weakness.

 

[Netzach]

I haven't run into this all that much. Mine is the first serious and continuing relationship of M's that involves SM.

Periodically he'll revert to thinking about a certain activity in a certain light, and I'll have to remind him I'm not the guy he tried it with before. I think when confronted with something he didn't enjoy one time he often has trouble realizing that the same activity with your roomate forever more, is different than with some guy you kinda hung with sometimes and didn't really get that into.

 

[Netzach]

I get really annoyed with the mindset that every trauma is something to be gotten past or over, every disinclination is just a little hurdle on the path to no-limit bliss.

M is queasy and miserable if humiliation and verbal abuse become part of the scene. That's him, it's who he is, it's not a limit purely there to stymie me or piss me off. Some things are not about me, isn't that astounding?

So, as I see it, that's what other bottoms are for.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Some people are more ego orientated than you N. Like me for example, I like to think that being the Dominant in a D/s BDSM relationship means that the relationship is centered around the Dominant. If I want my partner to perform certain acts and they cannot because of something in the past I see it as a limitation, a hurdle to take together. For me it is not about not having limits but about my limits and my way. The world is not centred around me (although some of my co-workers say that I think it does ), but in my world it is.

Of course I am also open minded to realize that there are others that do not think alike. This is why I always say that everyone has to make their own path in the lifestyle.

Francisco.