The role of 'The Conversation' in your stories.

[TheRedChamber]

I feel like I've read a lot of stories over the years that follow the same basic pattern

- Partner A discovers, usually accidentally, that Partner B has a particular fetish, need, or sexual request.
- Partner A and Partner B sit down, have a long and frank conversation about it, and decide to do it.
- They do it. It's fun.

In real life, this is ideal. Communication, honesty, and openness are the cornerstones of a good relationship.
In erotica, I dunno...

Dramatically, this kind of set-up seems to drain the scenario of much of its potential dramatic conflict and basically tells the reader what's going to happen. The couple may set red lines, which may or may not be crossed, but even the crossing has been Chekoved.

On the other hand, you might struggle with issues of consent if your characters don't talk about things to some degree and it can also turn out like those sit-coms where the farcial situation would be instantly solved with a thirty second phone call.

I've been thinking abou this a bit recently and it's crept into my stories. We're Golden was an attempt to have an 'ordinary couple' build upto watersports not only not having 'the converstation' but having no dialogue at all (until the last couple of lines). For The Accidental Doggers, I had a long post-action conversation that got cut because it dragged the pacing down and was (arguably) a conversation for another day.

So I'm wondering, how do other AH members deal with this kind of thing in their story? How do you react as a reader to Converstion heavy stories.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

With the caveat that most of my stories don't contain anything to out of the ordinary, I've never had "the conversation".
In most cases the issue comes up more in the heat of the moment, and character B either simply says "Yes" or just goes along with it.

That more or less mirrors my real world experience, I've never had what I would consider a long frank conversation about something. My partner has asked, I've considered it and said yes or no. Once I asked a clarifying question or two, but still not particularly long and frank.
"I'd like to try sex in a public place"
"Define 'public place' please"
He did and then we did...

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Key thing about dialogue is that it has to move the story forward. My later stories rely more and more on dialogue to do exposition and give insight into the characters. Used correctly, it’s a great tool to have in your toolkit.

 

[Euphony]

So I'm wondering, how do other AH members deal with this kind of thing in their story?

Boundaries and negotiations are my jam. Not with the inbuilt of BDSM, I am motivated to explore the psychology and imperfectness of well-suited couples. (I really dislike leaning heavy on soulmates/my own and only/find the right person and put a ring on it and you're done.)

Trouble is, many readers are slavish to "it's fantasy so it should just all click. Any hint at RL is full real life and that's what I'm escaping."

I'm not your author I suppose.

How do you react as a reader to Converstion heavy stories.

Conversation is the heart of relationships so I love it more than most and likely more than I should (in an authorial sense.)

Constant struggle to not overdo it. Beats, action, cut to the bone prose, and regularly taking a bird's eye look at the white space on the page help to mitigate some of the flow damage my wordy protags do. Not a fix all, just helps get a few more into the tent while still maintaining my motivation to tell a story.

 

[CyranoJ]

So I'm wondering, how do other AH members deal with this kind of thing in their story? How do you react as a reader to Converstion heavy stories.

Conversations serve one of four purposes:

1) Exposition
2) Plot advancement
3) Character development that may also serve purposes 1 and/or 2
4) Erotic play that can also serve purposes 1-3

I think that covers the ambit of my uses of dialogue/conversation.

 

[ronde]

I feel like I've read a lot of stories over the years that follow the same basic pattern

- Partner A discovers, usually accidentally, that Partner B has a particular fetish, need, or sexual request.
- Partner A and Partner B sit down, have a long and frank conversation about it, and decide to do it.
- They do it. It's fun.

In real life, this is ideal. Communication, honesty, and openness are the cornerstones of a good relationship.
In erotica, I dunno...

Dramatically, this kind of set-up seems to drain the scenario of much of its potential dramatic conflict and basically tells the reader what's going to happen. The couple may set red lines, which may or may not be crossed, but even the crossing has been Chekoved.

On the other hand, you might struggle with issues of consent if your characters don't talk about things to some degree and it can also turn out like those sit-coms where the farcial situation would be instantly solved with a thirty second phone call.

I've been thinking abou this a bit recently and it's crept into my stories. We're Golden was an attempt to have an 'ordinary couple' build upto watersports not only not having 'the converstation' but having no dialogue at all (until the last couple of lines). For The Accidental Doggers, I had a long post-action conversation that got cut because it dragged the pacing down and was (arguably) a conversation for another day.

So I'm wondering, how do other AH members deal with this kind of thing in their story? How do you react as a reader to Converstion heavy stories.

What you're asking is if readers want to read about a fantasy or about reality and the answer is "who knows".

There seem to be plenty of readers who like to read about a fantasy world where the men are all super studs and the women are begging those super studs for anything and everything and as many times as possible before they pass out. Often the characters don't talk much. It's just as if they read each other's minds.

There are also plenty of readers who like to read about real people doing real things and having real thoughts that may or may not lead to sex. They talk about things, and those conversations are a way for the writer to introduce the characters without the boiler plate, "She had brown hair down to her shoulders, heavy breasts, and a tight but", or "He would have been handsome to most women". Dialogue is also a way to show the reader how a character thinks by writing his or her dialogue to reflect those thoughts. For instance, I could write that Cheryl was raised in a very conservative, religious home and her mother had cautioned her many times about doing anything her mother considered to be abnormal, like...(fill in your favorite fetish here), or I could write, Cheryl gasped, "Mom would kill me if she thought I'd do something like that".

I use dialogue extensively in my stories because I believe it goes a long way to making a character a real person.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I feel like I've read a lot of stories over the years that follow the same basic pattern

- Partner A discovers, usually accidentally, that Partner B has a particular fetish, need, or sexual request.
- Partner A and Partner B sit down, have a long and frank conversation about it, and decide to do it.
- They do it. It's fun.

In real life, this is ideal. Communication, honesty, and openness are the cornerstones of a good relationship.
In erotica, I dunno...

Dramatically, this kind of set-up seems to drain the scenario of much of its potential dramatic conflict and basically tells the reader what's going to happen.

Depends on what the author sees as the meat of the story.

If one's interest is primarily in writing a fetish scene, then the preliminary conversation probably isn't important. If the author wants to establish that it's consensual, that's best handled by mentioning the conversation rather than showing it in detail. That also leaves room for the author to surprise the reader later, if they haven't spelled out exactly what people agreed on.

OTOH, sometimes the conversation is of interest in itself, not just as a way of setting up a sex scene. I sometimes enjoy playing with the contrast between "in-scene" (where one person might be hurting and dominating another) and "out of scene" where they're treating one another as equals and friends, and a negotiation scene can be useful for that.

In a longer story, that conversation might be an ongoing process. In "Red Scarf" the two main characters negotiate their arrangement early on, but then a year later they renegotiate it. The point of that renegotiation is partly to set up for a few scenes where they explore new things, but also to show how Anjali is getting more confident in asking for things she wants, which is part of her arc through the story.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I like writing dialogue. I see conversation as part of the buildup and as erotic (if not more) than the final putting X into Y or whatever. Talking about sex is sexy to read, IMO. I have a few followers who love that approach, but not that many followers for the amount I've written, suggesting most readers prefer different things (it could also be many other things putting them off - writing similar amounts of lesbian, gay and het content and often mentioning one in stories about another, seems to deter lots of readers).

 

[yowser]

As usual, a lot depends on the nature of the story at hand. If the goal is extending tension, creating dramatic effect, then breaking up the 'long conversation' makes total sense, and as Bramble said above, the reader gets to see the characters thoughts alter over time.

In real life, the 'long conversation' is almost never done in one bit. Someone introduces a new idea. The two of them talk. They stop talking and go on with life, but each ruminates a bit and they come back and re-discuss. Extending this in the story lets the reader get an idea of how the thoughts are evolving in a character.

With the exception of sudden, explosive lust-driven mental processes, lots of erotic interest comes from inner thoughts that develop and grow over time. Extending dialogue is an excellent way to heighten and highlight this growing tension.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree that you don't want to use dialogue to completely map out what's going to happen, because it deprives the story of the element of surprise and excitement. But dialogue can be a wonderful tool for teasing, or hinting at what's to come, or partially revealing otherwise hidden desires or fetishes. Dialogue can be used as a tool of seduction, and of convincing a character to do something the character might not otherwise do. Dialogue can create dramatic tension if one or more characters use it to express reluctance and resistance.

If the conversation is handled well, I greatly enjoy conversation-heavy stories. I find it to be very erotic when characters' minds are fully engaged in the erotic things they are doing, and dialogue is a way of capturing that.

 

[MillieDynamite]

To reveal the speaker's character or the person they are talking about. To move the story forward. To elicit emotional responses in the reader. However, sometimes, the characters have the conversation they want to have. After all, they live my head, they have their own lives, if the don't want to reveal anything, that's up to them.

 

[NotWise]

I've rarely written "the conversation." If couples explore their boundaries, then when the situation arises they read each other's limits to tell where to go and what to do. One case where I did use it was a brother/sister Halloween story in which they couldn't go far in the conversation without getting a clear "no." That builds the tension, which is eventually released when a situation gives them no choice.

I love writing dialogue. It's how I tell my stories. But, it seems to me like "the conversation" goes beyond foreshadowing to pre-determination. You've lost an opportunity to build conflict and sexual tension.

 

[MrPixel]

I enjoy using "the conversation" as morning-after retrospection, including "I don't think we want to go there again" situations. Coincident to this thread, I have a "conversation" going right now among swinger friends accusing the group's de facto leader of assembling a harem. It's going to be interesting to see where this goes; it's one of those "writing itself" situations.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I don't think I've really written the conversation. Characters have had conversations about their relationships, but as far as about a kink or fetish; none I can recall.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Okay, lots of good ideas. I'd added about seven people to the quote button, but if I try to go through and answer everyone one-by-one this'll be a mess, so let's just talk generally.

First of all, let's be clear that I'm not just talking about dialogue - that certainly has all kinds of uses. It's the specific conversations about a fetish - the couple is somewhere private - in bed, in the car - and they are discussing what to do, how they feel about it, how to arrange it. Theoretically you could have a short 'the conversation' in the middle of sex/foreplay or (easier) in the middle of a BDSM scene. Typically they're just static though - two people talking for 500 words about the next 1000 words of plot.

As @SimonDoom says, it is possible to make the conversation erotic and I suppose there's an essential eroticism about talking about your fetish - especially for the first time. I also agree that it might work as @Bramblethorn suggests to highlight differences between people when they're playing Dom/Sub roles and when they're not - the issue with that is if you lead with 'the conversation', you're probably giving the reader the more boring of the roles first. It more interesting (IMHO) to start with the fantasy session and then have the masks fall and realize the peope are normal. (As always 'Depends on the Story')

 

[pink_silk_glove]

- Partner A discovers, usually accidentally, that Partner B has a particular fetish, need, or sexual request.
- Partner A and Partner B sit down, have a long and frank conversation about it, and decide to do it.
- They do it. It's fun.

This is extremely common because so many authors (and so many readers) aren't interested in plot, only a fantasy. This template that you show is plotless. It is the simplest template of the fantasy. I want my certain little kink. What if I could just magically get it somehow? Maybe if I just have the character mention it or ask about it, it will turn out that the partner will actually be into it. It's a popular template because it is literally the quickest line from A to B to achieve the fantasy.

It's just like when Jerry said "She's into it," and George said "This is like discovering plutonium ... BY ACCIDENT!!"

That's the entire story. Getting laid (or having your kink satisfied) by accident. It's also a dead giveaway for an amateur writer. No plot, no twists, no depth, no development. You want fisting? I'll write someone who just luckily happens to be into it. Done.

 

[StillStunned]

That's the entire story. Getting laid (or having your kink satisfied) by accident. It's also a dead giveaway for an amateur writer. No plot, no twists, no depth, no development. You want fisting? I'll write someone who just luckily happens to be into it. Done.

Why do some people always insist that plot and development are the be-all and end-all of writing? Stories can have plenty of different purposes.

Have you ever read any PG Wodehouse? A critic once complained that one of his books was just the same plot but with different characters. So in the foreword to his next book, he explained that he'd done things differently: it was the same plot, with the same characters. People rarely call Wodehouse an amateur.

Sometimes a story is about plot. Sometimes it's about character development. And sometimes, particularly in erotica, it's about a scene.

I recently read a book about self-editing in fiction. One of the author's key points was that scenes become meaningful if the characters undergo a shift in situation or in attitude between when the scene opens and when it closes. Say the scene involves getting your kink satisfied by accident, like you suggest in your post. Then surely, once the sex is over, the character has experienced that shift. They've had the experience. How do they react: do they want more, or is that particular itch scratched for now? Did they find out they didn't actually like it, and want to go back to when it was just a fantasy? Or perhaps the sex brings a change in their situation. The character cheated on their spouse, and now their marriage might be ruined. And so on.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Why do some people always insist that plot and development are the be-all and end-all of writing? Stories can have plenty of different purposes.

Have you ever read any PG Wodehouse? A critic once complained that one of his books was just the same plot but with different characters. So in the foreword to his next book, he explained that he'd done things differently: it was the same plot, with the same characters. People rarely call Wodehouse an amateur.

Sometimes a story is about plot. Sometimes it's about character development. And sometimes, particularly in erotica, it's about a scene.

I recently read a book about self-editing in fiction. One of the author's key points was that scenes become meaningful if the characters undergo a shift in situation or in attitude between when the scene opens and when it closes. Say the scene involves getting your kink satisfied by accident, like you suggest in your post. Then surely, once the sex is over, the character has experienced that shift. They've had the experience. How do they react: do they want more, or is that particular itch scratched for now? Did they find out they didn't actually like it, and want to go back to when it was just a fantasy? Or perhaps the sex brings a change in their situation. The character cheated on their spouse, and now their marriage might be ruined. And so on.

Good point, and it also assumes that the sex or kink is part of the plot in the first place.
It would strike me as far more amateurish to have a story where the whole "plot" is character A trying to convince character B to try watersports. It smacks of wish fulfillment. "I wish I could talk my SO into this, here let me talk this character into it".
It's more interesting to have characters decide one way or another then get on with an actual story.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

you might struggle with issues of consent if your characters don't talk about things to some degree

I am currently crafting a story that is about avoiding "the conversation" while describing the journey of a couple into bdsm from the doms point of view. So lack of explicit consent is a major issue in the story, but I hope it also an aspect that makes it interesting. I do use dialogue in the situations like him giving orders and then observing how she reacts or argues. I find it challenging, but fun. The moment when he brings out the cuffs and whip are still a bit of a headache.

 

[SimonDoom]

Okay, lots of good ideas. I'd added about seven people to the quote button, but if I try to go through and answer everyone one-by-one this'll be a mess, so let's just talk generally.

First of all, let's be clear that I'm not just talking about dialogue - that certainly has all kinds of uses. It's the specific conversations about a fetish - the couple is somewhere private - in bed, in the car - and they are discussing what to do, how they feel about it, how to arrange it. Theoretically you could have a short 'the conversation' in the middle of sex/foreplay or (easier) in the middle of a BDSM scene. Typically they're just static though - two people talking for 500 words about the next 1000 words of plot.

As @SimonDoom says, it is possible to make the conversation erotic and I suppose there's an essential eroticism about talking about your fetish - especially for the first time. I also agree that it might work as @Bramblethorn suggests to highlight differences between people when they're playing Dom/Sub roles and when they're not - the issue with that is if you lead with 'the conversation', you're probably giving the reader the more boring of the roles first. It more interesting (IMHO) to start with the fantasy session and then have the masks fall and realize the peope are normal. (As always 'Depends on the Story')

Obviously, you don't want to describe two people simply mapping out exactly what they are going to do, and then doing it. That would be dull. The conversation should hint and tease and suggest. There should be playfulness, perhaps an element of seduction, with one partner more eager than the other, having to persuade the other. There shouldn't be too much discussion about exactly what will happen, so there's an element of surprise when it really does happen.

Suppose, for example, it's a BDSM story. John is introducing Maria to her first BDSM experience. Maria is nervous, and expresses a combination of eagerness to try something new, but also some fear and uncertainty. That heightens erotic tension. John wants to reassure her, but he wants to excite her, too, and he doesn't want to tell her too much. They go over the basics of the use of a safe word, and he gives her rough clues about what to expect, but he doesn't tell her too much about what's going to happen, because that would make it less exciting (for her and for the reader). So then the encounter occurs (presumably from her point of view, because she doesn't know what's going to happen) and she encounters surprise after surprise in terms of activities and sensations. The conversation sets up the erotic event, but it doesn't preview everything that's going to happen. If done right, the conversation whets the reader's appetite for what is to come.

 

[KeithD]

I like to include conversation in my stories. But what I like to do with the conversations is to have them so bald and blunt about sex and what one character wants from the other that it evokes an "Oh, my" from the reader.

 

[KachinaDoll]

Conversations in stories are to reveal information or develop the characters. ie... move the story along. They should add to the story, not be used as fillers. If characters simply discuss the weather or what to have dinner, readers will skip over.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Conversations in stories are to reveal information or develop the characters. ie... move the story along. They should add to the story, not be used as fillers. If characters simply discuss the weather or what to have dinner, readers will skip over.

Excellent point, if my characters are in an environment where they would talking but nothing important will be said I throw in a "they discussed xyz over dinner..." Then move on. No one wants to hear the conversation if xyz isn't relevant to advancing the plot.

 

[djrip]

I like to include conversation in my stories. But what I like to do with the conversations is to have them so bald and blunt about sex and what one character wants from the other that it evokes an "Oh, my" from the reader.

And I can only hear that in one voice!

 

[Cagivagurl]

From a purely personal perspective.
I find narrative boring. Dialogue is what I love.
When I open a story, and it starts with only narrative, and an info dump. I pretty much hit back....

I want the story to be carried in dialogue. Rich conversations explaining people and events.
Let the characters carry the story. Let them be the narrators within their speech.
As I said at the start. That is my preference.
It neither makes it right or wrong.
We all write differently, tell stories with individual style. That's what's so great about writing.

Two writers telling the same story will read completely differently.

Cagivagurl