The right to die

[WRJames]

This post is prompted by all the noise that has been generated about "Death Boards" as a part of Obama's health care reform. Of course, everyone is denying this is true. But still, Sarah Palin is saying that her disabled child would be culled, Arlan Specter was challenged whether he would be treated for cancer at his advanced age, and there is talk that the the elderly would be just "kept comfortable." Obama is being painted as a Nazi and the threat of government sponsored euthenasia is at the heart of it.

Obviously, this has touched a raw nerve, but I wonder if secretly we know, collectively, that we are maintaining a lot of lives with no quality of life, just to salve our own consciences.

I have spent a lot of time, too much time, in nursing homes. Both my parents and my mother in law suffered in the end from severe dementia. They went through years of humiliation and suffering that had no purpose that I can determine.

I'm sure that many of you have faced a life and death decision for a relative. Eventually, if we retain the mental capacity, we may face it for ourselves. So what are your thoughts? Is there a point where life is no longer worth living? Do we have the right to hasten the end of such a life?

 

[sr71plt]

Yep. My mother was kept alive for five months after she said she wanted to die and refused food and medicine until she was too confused to say no to it when it regularly showed up. From knowing her all my life, I knew she was serious and sincere in her choice--but the system took the decision out of both of our hands.

 

[sophia jane]

I'm sure that many of you have faced a life and death decision for a relative. Eventually, if we retain the mental capacity, we may face it for ourselves. So what are your thoughts? Is there a point where life is no longer worth living? Do we have the right to hasten the end of such a life?

I've had to deal with it in my own life; years ago my grandmother was suddenly ill, in the hospital, etc and at first we thought she'd recover, but it got worse and we were suddenly faced with: put her on machines or let her die. We asked them to reduce her pain and let her go. It was a hard choice, but a humane one. I've told all of my important people that I want the same done for me when/if the time comes.

 

[SeaCat]

Hmmmm two very interesting questions raised in the same post. I like it.

First off, while I have not read the details of the so called "Death Boards" I find them highly unlikely. I would like to see those chattering about them to post the actual information they are getting this idea from. (Complete quotes please.) To my way of thinking this is just another scare tactic, a highly distasteful scare tactic but a scare tactic.

As for the right to die. I feel that every single one of us should have that choice. As a matter of fact there have been actions that do help with this. One such was the creation of the Living Will. (Yes I do have one, as do my wife, my parents and my Wife's parents.) Life with dignity and Death with Dignity should be everyones right.

Cat

 

[WRJames]

I'm not sure a Catholic hospital would honor a living will, and because of mergers and closures that may be the only hospital available.

I know at one point my father was already quite far gone, he had some sort of crisis, and the nursing home put him in a Catholic hospital without our permission. We were sure he was going to wind up on life support.

 

[sr71plt]

Hmmmm two very interesting questions raised in the same post. I like it.

First off, while I have not read the details of the so called "Death Boards" I find them highly unlikely. I would like to see those chattering about them to post the actual information they are getting this idea from. (Complete quotes please.) To my way of thinking this is just another scare tactic, a highly distasteful scare tactic but a scare tactic.

As for the right to die. I feel that every single one of us should have that choice. As a matter of fact there have been actions that do help with this. One such was the creation of the Living Will. (Yes I do have one, as do my wife, my parents and my Wife's parents.) Life with dignity and Death with Dignity should be everyones right.

Cat

I haven't heard of or looked into the Death Boards issue either. But at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire today, President Obama referred to them and said the claims about them were nonsense. For what it's worth.

 

[TE999]

Having witnessed a parent, relatives young and old and friends die slowly and miserably, I'm all in favor of each person deciding when they should die while they can still communicate their wishes and being offered the means to do so. Death With Dignity if you will.

 

[Katyusha]

Here's a question that I've yet to hear a "sanctity of life" proponent answer: At what point does prolonging life become postponing death?

I think the decision should belong to each of us, and only us. I think euthanasia ought to be legal for those who wish to die quietly and peacefully before age, illness or injury destroys their quality of life. I think that the right to perform euthanasia should only go to licensed physicians, and that any physician who wishes not to perform euthanasia based on personal and/or moral grounds should not be required to, and that, if desired, euthanasia can be performed at home.

There will be those who'll always hold the sanctity of life over the quality of life, however, only in special cases should this kind of a decision be left to someone else. Those cases would be when the patient has never, at any time in their adult life, had the ability to make said decision for themselves. I think living wills should be a legal requirement of all of us, with the provision that we be allowed to alter them as often as we feel we need to.

Nobody, not family, not friends, and certainly not the government, should be the ones to decide what happens to us. I don't think anybody should ever have the right to postpone my death or euthanize me but me.

SR71, my grandmother was also kept alive for several months after she wanted to die, and refused food and medication until she was too confused to know what was going on. I hated knowing that there was nothing we could do to end her suffering when *she* wanted it to end. If someone doesn't want to fight anymore, doesn't want to live anymore, doesn't want to be a burden on their family anymore (whether the family considers them a burden or not), why do we force them to?

 

[DG Hear]

Having witnessed a parent, relatives young and old and friends die slowly and miserably, I'm all in favor of each person deciding when they should die while they can still communicate their wishes and being offered the means to do so. Death With Dignity if you will.

I totally agree, it should be the decision of the patient or the family if the patient is unable to speak or write his/her wishes.

The decision should not be made by any government, or insurance company for that matter.

 

[Katyusha]

I totally agree, it should be the decision of the patient or the family if the patient is unable to speak or write his/her wishes.

The decision should not be made by any government, or insurance company for that matter.

Yes...I forgot to put insurance companies in my list of people and entities who should not have any right whatsoever to make that decision.

 

[Liar]

About two years ago, my grandfather died, and someone else moved into my grandfather's body. He has none of my grandfather's memories, no knowledge of his wife and family, someone else's voice, a twenty word vocabulary, someone else's temperament, an emotional registry pending from apathy to confusion, vacant eyes and lifeless, limp hands.

It's the strangest thing. This is of course not a question of end-of-life measures. This new person in my dead grandfather's body has every right to life. I just don't knwo if he has the right to our lives.

As it is now, we lost a family member two years ago, we'll have to wait, maybe for years, until we're allowed to mourn and move on.

What he, the new guy, deserves, is a life of his own, away from us strangers who don't know how to deal with him, and who can't look at him with anything but sadness. And that makes him sad, because he don't understand why.

We're going through the motions to set that up right now. A permanent final years residence where he'll be looked after by professionals. All covered and not even considered to be rationed in any way, shape or form, by this socialist government single payer health care buerocracy I live in.

But what I fear about that is, when when his time comes, we will be the ones asked to make the call to keep him alive or not. Because we knew the man that one had that name?

This is why I have now set up my living will and white letter. For that and other scenarios I don't want to think about.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Both my parents had living wills. I think they're great. When Dad was his final decline from Alzheimer's, they just made him comfortable until he slipped away. But I suspect that these hysteria-crats are the same ones who wanted to keep that poor woman in Florida alive even though her husband had given permission to stop her water and food tube. I mean, if you really expect to join with the Infinite Light when you die, why put it off?

 

[Liar]

I haven't heard of or looked into the Death Boards issue either. But at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire today, President Obama referred to them and said the claims about them were nonsense. For what it's worth.

It seems to be a distortion of a passage saying that voluntary end-of-life consultiation with a medical professional will be covered (by Medicare and that public option thing, I suppose), which is isn't in the current system.

And fun fact of the day: it's introduced by a republican. O my.

 

[john-the-author]

Hmmmm two very interesting questions raised in the same post. I like it.

First off, while I have not read the details of the so called "Death Boards" I find them highly unlikely. I would like to see those chattering about them to post the actual information they are getting this idea from. (Complete quotes please.) To my way of thinking this is just another scare tactic, a highly distasteful scare tactic but a scare tactic.

As for the right to die. I feel that every single one of us should have that choice. As a matter of fact there have been actions that do help with this. One such was the creation of the Living Will. (Yes I do have one, as do my wife, my parents and my Wife's parents.) Life with dignity and Death with Dignity should be everyones right.

Cat

The "Death Boards" are indeed a paranoid fantasy of Sarah Palin et al. If you read the bill, you see that end-of-life counselling is covered in this, where it wasn't before (which you don't know just reading the bill). It is just another scare tactic.

Everyone should have the right to choose to die as painlessly as possible.

My maternal g'mother, an amazing woman, was 91-1/2 when she went in for surgery for a collapsed esophagus. They decided to put in a stomach tube and she was FURIOUS! "You should've let me die on the table!" she said. She fumed about this for a couple months and finally said "I can't eat, I can't drink, I can't garden, I can't swim, I can't travel [she used to travel everywhere all the time], I can't do anything that I enjoy. This isn't the life I signed up for. I quit!" And shortly thereafter, she arranged to have her feeding tube turned off and she died a week later. I miss her terribly, but she was a brilliant, articulate, lucid woman and if she felt her life was over, then I had no call to say that she should stick around.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Indeed. Just let them go Home.

 

[R. Richard]

The right to die should be as much a right, as the right to live, PROVIDED that the wish to die is that of the person whose life is to end.

I have know people who have had a loved one struck down by accident or Alzheimers, until they were no more than technically alive. The unfortunates were kept alive by bureaucrats, who wouldn't allow a legal coup de grâce.

 

[_Lynn_]

My mom had a living will. We followed her wishes and let her go.

 

[3113]

First off, while I have not read the details of the so called "Death Boards" I find them highly unlikely. I would like to see those chattering about them to post the actual information they are getting this idea from. (Complete quotes please.) To my way of thinking this is just another scare tactic, a highly distasteful scare tactic but a scare tactic.

Quite right. It's a deliberate smear/distortion of the part of the bill that talks about living wills. Exactly what you point out that people should have.

But they're using this to get the AARP folk riled up and scared. They're being told that they'll lose their medicare and that they'll be euthanized.

And my opinion is that life and death decisions belong in the hands of the person and that living wills should be encouraged so that the decision of the person can be honored. I'd like to see a lot more hospices and less fear of letting people die as they'd like, in as much comfort as possible rather than extending their misery to the point where every day they remain alive is torture.

This is one of those things I feel very strongly about.

 

[sadangel]

I was actually afraid to post my thoughts when the thread first went up. I figured I'd be in the minority with this topic. Seems I'm in the majority.

I have a living will and any other documents that state clearly under what terms I am to be allowed to be let go and expect it to be honored. I guess I'm crazy that way, but it is important to me. If there is no chance of a reasonable life similar to what I had, or my condition is terminal, then please let me go, with pain meds and diginity.

 

[sr71plt]

My mom had a living will. We followed her wishes and let her go.

My mother had a living will and all of those with her power of attorney (my sister and me) in the room when she signaled (not being able to speak, because she had stroked out) that she wanted to go and would refuse food and medicine--and additionally (in the room), her doctor, the hospital's chaplain (who also was her daughter), a doctor who was a member of the hospital's board (who also was her son-in-law). All of these folks agreed to her expressed wishes. The hospital lawyers decided otherwise. So, for five months, when she became so weak and confused she no longer could signal (being stroked out and not being able to talk) no to the food and medicine that came in three times a day, the hospital kept her (barely) alive. At the end, she weighed little over 60 pounds.

Because of her (aforementioned) connections (and the hospital lawyers fighting the chaplain and a member of their board--who were tainted because they were related to the patient), she had a full time nurse assigned to her around the clock--who were the ones feeding and medicating her. Those of us who wanted for her what she clearly wanted finally put our resources together and fixed the nursing schedule so that all of her nurses thought someone else was on duty one night--and, with no nurse there, my mother went during the night. Alone, because none of us could bring attention to the absence of a nurse in her room.

So, don't feel all that protected by either a living will or relatives clued into your stated preferences.

 

[_Lynn_]

My mother had a living will and all of those with her power of attorney (my sister and me) in the room when she signaled (not being able to speak, because she had stroked out) that she wanted to go and would refuse food and medicine--and additionally (in the room), her doctor, the hospital's chaplain (who also was her daughter), a doctor who was a member of the hospital's board (who also was her son-in-law). All of these folks agreed to her expressed wishes. The hospital lawyers decided otherwise. So, for five months, when she became so weak and confused she no longer could signal (being stroked out and not being able to talk) no to the food and medicine that came in three times a day, the hospital kept her (barely) alive. At the end, she weighed little over 60 pounds.

Because of her (aforementioned) connections (and the hospital lawyers fighting the chaplain and a member of their board--who were tainted because they were related to the patient), she had a full time nurse assigned to her around the clock--who were the ones feeding and medicating her. Those of us who wanted for her what she clearly wanted finally put our resources together and fixed the nursing schedule so that all of her nurses thought someone else was on duty one night--and, with no nurse there, my mother went during the night. Alone, because none of us could bring attention to the absence of a nurse in her room.

So, don't feel all that protected by either a living will or relatives clued into your stated preferences.

My mom had colon cancer, terminal. But she had a stroke at my house on a Saturday. The moment I saw her, I knew she was 'gone'. However, she continued to have seizures so bad I had to hold her to keep her from falling out of bed. I called 911, and then my sister. The first thing my sister did was haul out her copy of mom's living will. They gave her medication to slow the seizures and a small amount of oxygen.

Once we were all at the hospital, we talked to doctors there. They would put her on life-support if we chose. We said no. Her one wish was that she have her own doctor there to 'turn off' anything. He was out of town for the weekend. So we kept the small amounts of medication going to stop the seizures and enough oxygen to help her breathe.

We talked to him on Monday, late morning. About three that afternoon he took off the oxygen and stopped the IV of meds. She was gone a short time later. Peaceful, as she wanted. We never had the hospital lawyer there, or any doctor try to persuade us not to follow her wishes. But I do know that isn't always the way it goes.

 

[sr71plt]

A real Catch-22 with us. Once my mom, in a state of delirium, accepted proffered food and medicine again (ergo didn't signal "no"), that negated her declarations while lucid.

The irony was that she didn't stroke out at home. We all (including her) knew that was coming, and our instructions, if she did, was not to call anyone until she was gone. Unfortunately, she fell and broke her hip and she stroked out right after a successful hip replacement and while she was in the hospital. Big mistake that.

For five months, I could see in her eyes nonstop cussing out of fate.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Palin, the insurance companies, the 'conservatives', et al, are inciting fear and loathing in the masses. These are the same whack jobs participating in the tea-bag parties and who just can't get it through their racist heads that a mixed race man is President of the United States of America....they need to get the fuck over it.....but they won't.....

 

[DG Hear]

Palin, the insurance companies, the 'conservatives', et al, are inciting fear and loathing in the masses. These are the same whack jobs participating in the tea-bag parties and who just can't get it through their racist heads that a mixed race man is President of the United States of America....they need to get the fuck over it.....but they won't.....

I took this off another thread, this was sent to me. How do you understand it to read. Government choice or people choice?

• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-o f-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

If these pages aren't correct, then please post the correct ones. I don't want the government interfearing with my wills, or final decisions

 

[_Lynn_]

A real Catch-22 with us. Once my mom, in a state of delirium, accepted proffered food and medicine again (ergo didn't signal "no"), that negated her declarations while lucid.

The irony was that she didn't stroke out at home. We all (including her) knew that was coming, and our instructions, if she did, was not to call anyone until she was gone. Unfortunately, she fell and broke her hip and she stroked out right after a successful hip replacement and while she was in the hospital. Big mistake that.

For five months, I could see in her eyes nonstop cussing out of fate.

After my mom's surgery for colon cancer, she came to live with me. Her wound needed care, and I could do that. She left the hospital on Tuesday. I knew she was ready to die though. I could see it in her. She didn't even want the surgery for her cancer. Friday evening one of her friends stopped in. I went to my mom's room to tell her. She reluctantly got up, and made her way to the living room.

When her friend left, my mom looked at me and said 'I'm so tired. Please don't make me get up ever again.' She had this pleading look in her eyes. The next morning she had her stroke.