The Revd: A Story of Corruption (Please Give Feedback)

[British Filth]

Hi everyone! Ok, so Literotica have approved my first submission and before I crack on with the second in what I've already planned to be a trilogy, I wanted to see if any of you fine people have any tips or suggestions. I'd value your feedback. Here's the story:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=343689

All I'd say is to remember that this is the first of three. I crafted it to introduce characters and ratchet up the tension. There are juicy moments, but the sparks will fly properly in future instalments.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[mjl2010]

I read the first line and looked at the second paragraph. Then I scrolled through the first page. I see two things that you need to work on. One, many of your paragraphs are too long.

I'll explain. Whitespace is something the eye needs in order to maintain focus on a sentence. When paragraphs get long, the eye begins to wander and the reader skims and skips along. On a monitor screen, it's even worse.

So since I already have a headache this morning, I didn't try to read it. In the future, keep those paragraphs to ten screen lines or less. Try for six to eight screen lines with an occasional ten line paragraph being ok.

Why on earth did you italicize all your dialog? Just put it in double quotes and leave it at that. Italics are hard on the eye too. Just use double quotes like this.

"Get on your knees," he shouted.

I see, just in my skimming, several things a good editor would have warned you off about. Multiple punctuation marks like !!?. Improper ellipse usage. A few other things. Nothing so glaring it would detract terribly, but get an editor and shorten those paragraphs please.

Nice to see something in the incest/TABOO section that wasn't incest although that was really TABOO! yep. ok. You've got guts for putting your first story there, I'll give ya that.

What I could see, a decent plot beginning.

Keep writing and ignore the trolls. I see you attracted one already.

ETA: Why in your title did you use 'Revd'? I didn't see a need for that. Spell everything out including all numbers.

MJL

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Let me see. Your opening paragraph...
[/quote]7:30am. His alarm clock caused his eyes to open suddenly and at once he was consumed with her. Tonight was the night...
[/quote]

Ok. 21 words and four grammatic errors. You are not off to a good start. It should be 7:30 AM and that is not a sentence. His alarm clock did NOT cause him to open his eyes. The sound of the alarm did that. You need to learn precision. Also, that is a run-on sentence. Finally the elipsis at the end is totally inappropriate. It should be a period.

Paragraph two I looked at and said to myself, "Holy Fuck!" But I dredged my way through it anyway. I came to the conclusion that the entire paragraph is useless description an you would have done well to simply delete it. It does nothing and it's a bitch to read. In order to be readable on a monitor, your paragraphs need to max out at 6 to 8 screen lines. Longer than that and the eyes go crazy.

So, finally I got to the dialoge that begins in paragraph five. Dialoge is important because it allows the characters to show me the story and not you telling it to me. I have one simple question. WHY IS IT IN ITALLICS?

Dude, you really do need an editor. You had a good idea for a story. The idea of the village preacher and his wife moving to town and boinking the congregation is perfect for Lit. The problem is, there are so many errors, ultra long paragraphs and weird formats that it's a bitch to read.

 

[British Filth]

Thanks for your comments. Perhaps I could address a couple of them.

Firstly, it was my decision to put dialogue into italics to provide some contrast. I don't think that's especially unusual, nor do I find it particularly 'hard on the eye'. It would be harder on my eye if I were to read a story in which descriptive narrative and dialogue were exactly the same. I appreciate some distinction. Is this not the norm at Literotica?

I'm sorry, but if you think that paragraph two is an 'ultra long' paragraph, you'd do well to read more, or am I supposed to be dumbing it down for people who are used to two sentence paragraphs? This is, as the title gave away, a trilogy. It is not a story in itself, and as such there are inevitably going to be expanded passages of description and contextualisation in the initial stages. It goes with the turf.

The ellipsis at the end of the first line is used deliberately, to contextualise the opening gambit. I wanted to avoid the impression that paragraph two was a continuation in real time. In the sense that I was ommiting from the opening line information that would otherwise have made sense of it, I don't see that my usage of the ellipsis was inappropriate.

Your other points I do take on board. I hope this resposne doesn't come across as arrogant and I certainly don't mean it to be, but similarly, I'm not of the school that all feedback is necessarily correct and should go unchallenged.

PS Yes, I see the comments about incest, and there are so many incest stories in that section that one would be forgiven for thinking that other subject matter doesn't apply, but of course it does.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks for your comments. Perhaps I could address a couple of them.

Firstly, it was my decision to put dialogue into italics to provide some contrast. I don't think that's especially unusual, nor do I find it particularly 'hard on the eye'. It would be harder on my eye if I were to read a story in which descriptive narrative and dialogue were exactly the same. I appreciate some distinction. Is this not the norm at Literotica?

I'm sorry, but if you think that paragraph two is an 'ultra long' paragraph, you'd do well to read more, or am I supposed to be dumbing it down for people who are used to two sentence paragraphs? This is, as the title gave away, a trilogy. It is not a story in itself, and as such there are inevitably going to be expanded passages of description and contextualisation in the initial stages. It goes with the turf.

The ellipsis at the end of the first line is used deliberately, to contextualise the opening gambit. I wanted to avoid the impression that paragraph two was a continuation in real time. In the sense that I was ommiting from the opening line information that would otherwise have made sense of it, I don't see that my usage of the ellipsis was inappropriate.

Your other points I do take on board. I hope this resposne doesn't come across as arrogant and I certainly don't mean it to be, but similarly, I'm not of the school that all feedback is necessarily correct and should go unchallenged.

PS Yes, I see the comments about incest, and there are so many incest stories in that section that one would be forgiven for thinking that other subject matter doesn't apply, but of course it does.

Yes, it is unusual and off putting to put dialogue in italics. You'd be hardpressed to find a publisher today who would let you do that. Italics is considered to be hard to read, and publishers care more about the needs of readers than they do about authors (the former provide the money; the latter can be easily replaced). You can choose to use that device--at least on this Web site--but doing so means you don't really care if readers have to struggle with the unusual and detracting unnecessarily to read your work.

I don't have a problem with the nonsentence opening. The technique of dropping the reader into the middle of action at the start is a currently popular--and accepted--technique (I won a statewide competition recently by dropping the reader into the middle of a sentence and leaving them in the middle of another). Also, full sentences aren't required for fiction, and incomplete sentences can often be used to good effect--if sparingly. It seems fine here. (Both AM and a.m. are proper, incidentally--just don't mix them in the same work. But not run onto the time.)

The images of the alarm clock opening the protag's eyes and the protag waking up to chewing on "her," however, are awkward and offputting. They signal clumsy use of words and will weed out a large number of readers right there and then.

The ellipses at the end of the paragraph aren't supportable by any of the definitions of the use of ellipses that I know of, but it is done in fiction, and readers survive it, so you aren't alone if you want to use them there.

The second paragraph is too long, but, more important, it is densedensedense and is a data dump that will send some of those who survived your first paragraph screaming off the set. It starts off with a non sequitur (there may be more to follow, but I truly found the second paragraph too dense to bring myself to read to the point of comprehension).

You write, "Now 42 years old and in peak health with a moderately athletic body and a full head of dusty brown hair, he'd witnessed his congregation swell under his leadership, thanks largely to the community initiatives he'd pioneered." The concept of a full head of dusty brown hair causing his congregation to swell will cause a good deal of reader laughter you probably don't really intend or welcome.

Primarily, on the content of this paragraph, it's considered weak writing to dump so much background at the top of the story. Better writing sneaks in background along the route--right when it's needed. The initial paragraphs are for drawing the reader into what's happening in that story, not what happened to the protag in 1952 or why he has a cute mole on his rump that won't be used to any effect until the sex scene on page 3.

Like the others who have posted here, I didn't feel compelled to read farther.

Your response to Jenny doesn't come across as arrogant as significantly as it comes across as an attitude of "it's up to the reader to catch up to me and to adjust to my quirks." Sorry, you aren't nearly as important in the process as your reader is--the quicker you absorb that, the greater the volume of your readership will be.

Great that you're writing, though. Best of luck with it.

 

[British Filth]

Ok, well that's all really helpful so thanks.

I'd like to think at least somebody ventured further then the second paragraph. Funny you should suggest inserting background as it's needed. A lot of paragraph two was placed throughout the story before a re-draft, in which I decided that setting up the scene is a matter for the first act, not any other. Thanks for that tip though, I'll definitely use that.

 

[starrkers]

I left you a comment on the story.
But I'll elaborate on the paragraph length. A large slab of text that almost fills the screen is daunting. It is much easier to read in print than on a monitor, and that is why you need to think about breaking those pars up.
It has nothing to do with "dumbing it down" and everything to do with knowing your medium.
People are happier reading shorter paragraphs, long pars lead to people abandoning the story, as most previous commenters have here.
Presumably you want people to keep reading. So, make it easy for them.

eta: that few of the people here made it past your second par, should be a serious red flag to you. The group here tend to read further than the average reader, because you have asked for feedback. So they keep reading, even though it is difficult or not inspiring.
The average reader won't.

 

[mjl2010]

Thanks for your comments. Perhaps I could address a couple of them.

Firstly, it was my decision to put dialogue into italics to provide some contrast. I don't think that's especially unusual, nor do I find it particularly 'hard on the eye'. It would be harder on my eye if I were to read a story in which descriptive narrative and dialogue were exactly the same. I appreciate some distinction. Is this not the norm at Literotica?

I'm sorry, but if you think that paragraph two is an 'ultra long' paragraph, you'd do well to read more, or am I supposed to be dumbing it down for people who are used to two sentence paragraphs? This is, as the title gave away, a trilogy. It is not a story in itself, and as such there are inevitably going to be expanded passages of description and contextualisation in the initial stages. It goes with the turf.

No, it is not the norm at Literotica to put dialog in italics. It is the norm to put the dialog directly into double quotes.

Paragraph two is indeed too long. I don't see where anyone including myself said anything about dumbing it down, we said to break it up into shorter paragraphs. Perhaps you need to read the feedback you asked for more carefully. OR we could dumb it down for you. Or you could just ignore the valuable advice you asked for, keep writing the way you are and then wonder why you get so many views and so few votes. Perhaps later rather than sooner you'll figure out why people begin clicking that back button before they finish reading the story.

I'd give a thought on the proper grammatical use of the ellipse but I doubt its worth the space. You already know and we're wrong.

I suggest you read this page and further go and take a look at Strunk and White which is the style guide recommended for publishing on Literotica. A link is posted on the page I pointed you to. Further, there is a guide to writing amateur erotica listed and another that will help you learn the basic rules for punctuation and usage of the English Language.

MJL

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I hope this resposne doesn't come across as arrogant and I certainly don't mean it to be, but similarly, I'm not of the school that all feedback is necessarily correct and should go unchallenged.

Umm...let me think. Yes, it does come across as arrogant, and you can challenge all you want and continue to write crap for all I care.

 

[mjl2010]

Umm...let me think. Yes, it does come across as arrogant, and you can challenge all you want and continue to write crap for all I care.

Did I forget to mention that? Yes I did.

MJL

 

[British Filth]

Umm...let me think. Yes, it does come across as arrogant, and you can challenge all you want and continue to write crap for all I care.

You see, that's the kind of infantile abuse that immediately invalidates any of your so called 'helpful advise'. I asked for feedback, but that doesn't mean I can't question it's legitimacy. Quite frankly, some of the feedback may well be wrong and at the very least it isn't beyond questioning. Anyone can register to a forum and become a self-appointed 'feedback giver' but feedback isn't automatically correct just because it's given, and any contributor would be foolish to treat it as such.

My story isn't in the least bit 'crap', and such crass dismissal is only a poor reflection on your questionable ability to critique a story ("I don't like long paragraphs" when the passage in question is 19 lines, and even that is condensed to half a page, is a laughable reflection of your own inability to concentrate).

I'm sorry to those of you are are able to offer some intelligent feedback, but I shaln't be back to garner more criticism of this callibre.

 

[sr71plt]

You see, that's the kind of infantile abuse that immediately invalidates any of your so called 'helpful advise'. I asked for feedback, but that doesn't mean I can't question it's legitimacy. Quite frankly, some of the feedback may well be wrong and at the very least it isn't beyond questioning. Anyone can register to a forum and become a self-appointed 'feedback giver' but feedback isn't automatically correct just because it's given, and any contributor would be foolish to treat it as such.

My story isn't in the least bit 'crap', and such crass dismissal is only a poor reflection on your questionable ability to critique a story ("I don't like long paragraphs" when the passage in question is 19 lines, and even that is condensed to half a page, is a laughable reflection of your own inability to concentrate).

I'm sorry to those of you are are able to offer some intelligent feedback, but I shaln't be back to garner more criticism of this callibre.

Fair enough. And if someone is nasty to you in giving feedback--or down the line from there--it's fair for you to snap right back at them. Much of the feedback given on the forum is challengable, because the expertise behind those who give advice on the Internet varies widely--and some of the feedback given you to on this thread is challengable. I challenged some of it myself in the feedback I gave.

I can't resist, though, saying that when you ask for advice openingly on the Internet on issues that you could get more authoritative information on by researching yourself in competent authorities, you can't expect much sympathy for kicking about getting bum advice. Internet chat boards are the Valhalla of bum advice. (As posted earlier here, you can consult Strunk and White, which is the chosen authority for this site. But you won't find the answers to most of what was dealt with on your story, which are more subtle publishing issues than S&W covers. I suggest consulting the Chicago Manual of Style.)

In most cases, it's more constructive for you to weigh the various advice given and just decide what you think is best from that--or from the research you did yourself based on that--than to argue with those who have given the advice. Chances aren't good they are going to back down from the advice whether it's based on knowledge of authoritative sources or channeling of an old plumber grandfather. I've waved specific source citations under the noses of some of the folks giving bum writing advice on this forum, and they ignored it and continued to give out the same bum advice they've pulled out of their bum.

Now, back to a couple of specifics in the critique that various folks here have given this specific story. Direct discourse is traditionally enclosed in quote marks, not italics (Chicago Manual of Style 11.43.). In the CMA edition that preceded the current one, italics was acceptable for unspoken discourse (thoughts), but it isn't in the current CMA (11.47), so the trend is away from what you want to do. And if you use it, as I noted earlier, you are more concerned for your quirk preferences than for the comfort of your readers. (Which would be a little arrogant of you, don't you think?)

And, yes, paragraph length is important. Every one of my 30-some publisher clients include instructions in their editing rules to start bugging authors to end paragraphs at around 20 lines--for the sake of reader comprehension. And publishing doesn't bother with the rules on paragraphs you learned in high school (every paragraph having a topic sentence and containing everything serving that topic sentence). After 15 lines or so start looking for a place to chop is the rule of the industry. And that's for the printed page. As others have noted to you already here, the Internet page goes to even fewer lines in a paragraph than the printed page, because avoiding density is even more important for reader comfort on the Internet. If you have an open mind, you'll go look at some professionally designed Web sites--and you'll count the lines in paragraphs. And then you'll start giving your readers a break.

If you can't handle advice you don't welcome, don't go asking for it on an Internet chat board.

 

[Singularity]

Assessing Advice

One way to help decide whether the advice and feedback you get is constructive, and based on facts and experience - even if it is sometimes delivered in an uncompromising and direct, 'full frontal' choice of words - is to go read some of the critiquers' own work.

If you find yourself enjoying reading their stories, and if you respect how they write and how their work has been received; then that help make the difference in separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to feedback for a novice writer.

Which is not another way of saying that there is only one way of creating magic with words. It only means that those who have found a way to capture the magic - and put it into coherent sentences and paragraphs which have found a readership - have something of value to share with those who are learning the basics.

Many of those who offer feedback here do so to "pay it forward" so to speak, for the help they once received from others.

S.

 

[sr71plt]

One way to help decide whether the advice and feedback you get is constructive, and based on facts and experience - even if it is sometimes delivered in an uncompromising and direct, 'full frontal' choice of words - is to go read some of the critiquers' own work.

If you find yourself enjoying reading their stories, and if you respect how they write and how their work has been received; then that help make the difference in separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to feedback for a novice writer.

Which is not another way of saying that there is only one way of creating magic with words. It only means that those who have found a way to capture the magic - and put it into coherent sentences and paragraphs which have found a readership - have something of value to share with those who are learning the basics.

Many of those who offer feedback here do so to "pay it forward" so to speak, for the help they once received from others.

S.

You would think that was logical. But the talents of writing and of editing are not fully congruent. Most of the best editors are not among the best writers (and vice versa). The skill sets overlap (so, yes, if what you read of someone's work is truly hopeless, especially in grammar and spelling, this would be a good person to avoid for editing advice--and conversely, a better-bet editor/reader for you is one who writes what and how you'd like to write--if they write, which most the best editors don't). But a good editor is performing a quite different type of examination of a work than the writer performed when she/he wrote it. For one, a line editor doesn't need to have the spark of creativity--that magic you speak of--to edit. What they need is a respect for the writer's voice and spark of creativity.

In fact, that's what I see wrong in a good amount of the editing advice given here--much of it is in the vein of "write like I do, because that's the only way to do it." (That along with advice to get an editor when the one giving the advice can't spell worth spit when giving the advice--and doesn't bother to consult a dictionary and fix what they've misspelled.)

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I'm sorry to those of you are are able to offer some intelligent feedback, but I shaln't be back to garner more criticism of this callibre.

Sorry I came in late on this. The reaction by spurious to the valid feedback he requested from experienced writers brings to mind the great George Jones.

There goes my reason for living,
There goes the one of my dreams,
There goes my only possession,
There goes my everything.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry I came in late on this. The reaction by spurious to the valid feedback he requested from experienced writers brings to mind the great George Jones.

There goes my reason for living,
There goes the one of my dreams,
There goes my only possession,
There goes my everything.

Rumple Foreskin

To be fair, Spurious wasn't reacting just to valid feedback; Spurious was also reacting to some unnecessary nasty slapping around and piling on. The thread could have jolly well ended with MJL2010's 0156 a.m. post.

 

[RoniB]

shadow

 

[Guest]

Hi everyone! Ok, so Literotica have approved my first submission and before I crack on with the second in what I've already planned to be a trilogy, I wanted to see if any of you fine people have any tips or suggestions. I'd value your feedback. Here's the story:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=343689

All I'd say is to remember that this is the first of three. I crafted it to introduce characters and ratchet up the tension. There are juicy moments, but the sparks will fly properly in future instalments.

Thanks in advance for your help!

This is the Story Feedback forum, correct? You wanted feedback?

You received an assortment of critiques, some gentle, some harsh, but most said the same sorts of things.

The comments you received were more about structure than plot, weren't they? Structure is much easier to fix.

People were just trying to help. It is natural to feel defensive about your work, especially if it's the first one you've sent to a site. But quite honestly, if you plan to submit stories anywhere it will be helpful for you to develop a thicker skin.

Good luck.

 

[starrkers]

This is NOT their first story. They posted some time back about another story,Thread here, that has since been removed.

 

[RoniB]

shadow

 

[Guest]

This is NOT their first story. They posted some time back about another story,Thread here, that has since been removed.

Ooooh.

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Guest]

Very well said, Sarah, but if his last post is to be believed ... he's gone. He's not reading this ... which is another loss for someone who shows some (perhaps pigheaded) potential.

"Structure is much easier to fix." Bang on! (wait a minute, maybe this paragraph should come first...?)

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Images make all the difference. I still have images of Sarahh mowing her lawn in short cut-off, sweaty t-shirt...

 

[Guest]

Images make all the difference. I still have images of Sarahh mowing her lawn in short cut-off, sweaty t-shirt...

BWAH!

It's been awhile since I posted THAT thread.

Naughty girl.

 

[Varian P]

...the talents of writing and of editing are not fully congruent. Most of the best editors are not among the best writers (and vice versa). The skill sets overlap...But a good editor is performing a quite different type of examination of a work than the writer performed when she/he wrote it. For one, a line editor doesn't need to have the spark of creativity--that magic you speak of--to edit. What they need is a respect for the writer's voice and spark of creativity.

In fact, that's what I see wrong in a good amount of the editing advice given here--much of it is in the vein of "write like I do, because that's the only way to do it." (That along with advice to get an editor when the one giving the advice can't spell worth spit when giving the advice--and doesn't bother to consult a dictionary and fix what they've misspelled.)

If spurious will pardon the threadjack, sr7plt, you raise an interesting point (well, interesting to me at least; I don't know how many people are likely to be fascinated by a meta-discussion of the nature of critiques and critiquing ).

I sometimes offer feedback in this forum, but tend to address issues of structure, voice, characterization, and the like, and only occasionally venture an opinion on grammatical issues, both because I consider myself poorly qualified to advise on those matters, and also because, frankly, I'm not all that interested in them. So, while I think I'm generally able to recognize someone who would benefit from the aid of a V.E. (and, in fact, think every story can be improved with the aid of a second set of eyes, no matter who the author is), I'm not likely to comb through the text the way a V.E. would, or to cite the rule of grammar being repeatedly flouted. While some facility with proper usage of the language is crucial to making a story work, that's just not the sexy end of the business, as far as I'm concerned. So, I contribute here, but don't list myself as a volunteer editor.

I tend to look at this forum as a kind of virtual workshop; when I put something out there hoping for feedback, I'm quite happy with a mix of input, from the "readerly" response of, "That really turned me on because I'm hot for dominant men," to more of a lit-crit take on style or theme, with someone else pointing out that thirty percent of my sentences are fragments. Each kind of comment gives me insight into what I've written and informs my approach to the next piece.