The Real Artist Changes The Art For All

[NOIRTRASH]

Seminal artists do it.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[KindofHere]

...............

 

[oggbashan]

Duchamp did it with his found works notably his urinal.

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duchamp-fountain-t07573

 

[ElectricBlue]

I would say yes, and in most cases I think they made their revolutionary statement first, which is why they then become so influential. Picasso gets a bit tricky, in that he made several major artistic statements in his lifetime. So he might have been revolutionary, then influential, and then revolutionary once more.

In cinema, absolutely. The great directors were pioneers who kicked the art form up another level. Cinema without Eisenstein is like music without Mozart.

 

[NicoleZ]

But of course, naturally!

In science, we speak of paradigm shifts when the full understanding of a new discovery makes what we thought we knew obsolete. Soon everyone is busy churning out papers to demonstrate their allegiance to the new testament in the hope of some (minor) recognition such as a chair. It's much the same in the Arts with the creative genius blazing a new trail (to use an AmE expression) and the copycats rushing in as fast as they can to get aboard the gravy train.

 

[SamScribble]

Seminal artists change the possibilities for all. But those who follow don't necessarily take the baton.

 

[sr71plt]

I would say yes, and in most cases

I'll agree with this. Not all, but probably most.

 

[NicoleZ]

Seminal artists change the possibilities for all. But those who follow don't necessarily take the baton.

But Sam, if they don't pick up the baton they are destined to become mariginalised and fade away. Just look at the British Jazz and Skiffle musicians!

In 1957, Lonnie Donnigan was at his peak of popularity and when they played The Cavern, the intermission band were completely star-struck and none more so than the front man (I have it first-hand from one of the musicians involved that evening). His name and the name of the star-struck youngsters? John Lennon and the Silver Beatles.

Thirty years later, those who did pick up the baton played in front of crowds numbering in the tens of thousands whereas the Old Guard played minor gigs in front of 300-500 die-hard fans.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Ah! Yes! PARADIGM SHIFTS! I read the book many years ago, and seminal artists create paradigm shifts.

 

[SamScribble]

But Sam, if they don't pick up the baton they are destined to become mariginalised and fade away. Just look at the British Jazz and Skiffle musicians!

In 1957, Lonnie Donnigan was at his peak of popularity and when they played The Cavern, the intermission band were completely star-struck and none more so than the front man (I have it first-hand from one of the musicians involved that evening). His name and the name of the star-struck youngsters? John Lennon and the Silver Beatles.

Thirty years later, those who did pick up the baton played in front of crowds numbering in the tens of thousands whereas the Old Guard played minor gigs in front of 300-500 die-hard fans.

I don't disagree, Nicole. And you choose a good example. But the audiences for 'the old way' hang around. Just look at the way people still flock to view Impressionist paintings and listen to pre-Stravinsky/pre-Cage music. Last Night of the Proms, anyone?

 

[NicoleZ]

I don't disagree, Nicole. And you choose a good example. But the audiences for 'the old way' hang around. Just look at the way people still flock to view Impressionist paintings and listen to pre-Stravinsky/pre-Cage music. Last Night of the Proms, anyone?

You're quite right, Sam! Who can gainsay "Last Night of the Proms" as a perfect illustration of the point! It is the same thing with books and reading is it not? Most people consume escapism in the form of visual-auditory entertainment (TV, DVDs or Online) even if a few still hunger for the written word. The pity of it all is that it's frightfully hard to make a decent living out of it anymore which I guess is why you find quite a few pretty good authors amongst all the writers of free internet literature.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbOIA9vhHG0

SIMPLE EXPLANATION

 

[NOIRTRASH]

DANCE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUfVnrdn1ps

 

[TxRad]

Just don't confuse fads with artistic change. What some might see as change can be nothing but a passing fad. it's the confusion factor in time lines.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't disagree, Nicole. And you choose a good example. But the audiences for 'the old way' hang around. Just look at the way people still flock to view Impressionist paintings and listen to pre-Stravinsky/pre-Cage music. Last Night of the Proms, anyone?

Last Night of the Proms isn't a good example. The first half of the programme always includes some new or unfamiliar music. The whole series of Promenade Concerts that END with the last night showcases new and lesser known works among the classics.

A better example would be the Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Day Concerts. Although they sometimes feature some lesser known works they are ALL 19th Century.

 

[NicoleZ]

Last Night of the Proms isn't a good example. The first half of the programme always includes some new or unfamiliar music. The whole series of Promenade Concerts that END with the last night showcases new and lesser known works among the classics.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, Oggbashan. The whole phenomenon is a throwback, as you yourself say - "showcases new and lesser known works among the classics". Do people go or watch solely in order to hear the "new and lesser known" works? No! The reason it's so popular is that is is traditional, the airing of the rousing old classics such as Pomp and Circumstance, Rule Britannia with the sea of waving Union Jacks and Jerusalem, a glorious reminder of a bygone, happy age.

 

[oggbashan]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, Oggbashan. The whole phenomenon is a throwback, as you yourself say - "showcases new and lesser known works among the classics". Do people go or watch solely in order to hear the "new and lesser known" works? No! The reason it's so popular is that is is traditional, the airing of the rousing old classics such as Pomp and Circumstance, Rule Britannia with the sea of waving Union Jacks and Jerusalem, a glorious reminder of a bygone, happy age.

As a former Promenader I'll disagree again. The Last Night (second half) is traditional but it is a party for those who been to many of the Proms through the season. The programme for the whole Promenade concerts is massive. It features unusual and new compositions, new interpretations and is one of the most innovative musical festivals anywhere.

To judge the Promenade Concerts on the second half of the last concert is to miss the point. They were established to showcase good music old and NEW.

 

[NicoleZ]

As a former Promenader I'll disagree again. The Last Night (second half) is traditional but it is a party for those who been to many of the Proms through the season. The programme for the whole Promenade concerts is massive. It features unusual and new compositions, new interpretations and is one of the most innovative musical festivals anywhere.

To judge the Promenade Concerts on the second half of the last concert is to miss the point. They were established to showcase good music old and NEW.

As you're involved you should of course be in a perfect position to know, Oggbashan. Yet, the public image is one of the second part with its sea of British flags and rousing anthems which would imply that both public and organisers have missed the point.

 

[oggbashan]

As you're involved you should of course be in a perfect position to know, Oggbashan. Yet, the public image is one of the second part with its sea of British flags and rousing anthems which would imply that both public and organisers have missed the point.

The second half of the Last Night of the Proms is broadcast around the world as a celebration of Britishness. Yet look at the flags being waved. They're from all over the world.

The Last Night tradition started in 1941 when the Promenade Concerts had to be relocated quickly. The former venue, the Queens Hall, had been bombed.

In 1941 the first ever Last Night was an act of defiance against Nazi Germany. Now? It's just an excuse for a party, and that's all it is.

Unlike many orchestral events around the world you can turn up on the night and stand in line for cheap tickets, even for the Last Night.

Season ticket holders get preference for most tickets at the Last Night but they tend to be in the seats, not standing on the floor or the top gallery.

The original promoter of the Promenade Concerts said in 1895:

I am going to run nightly concerts and train the public by easy stages. Popular at first, gradually raising the standard until I have created a public for classical and modern music.

The Promenade Concerts still follow that format. The Promenaders have often been described as the most musically literate audience in the world. (I'm not!)

 

[rjordan]

But of course, naturally!

In science, we speak of paradigm shifts when the full understanding of a new discovery makes what we thought we knew obsolete. Soon everyone is busy churning out papers to demonstrate their allegiance to the new testament in the hope of some (minor) recognition such as a chair. It's much the same in the Arts with the creative genius blazing a new trail (to use an AmE expression) and the copycats rushing in as fast as they can to get aboard the gravy train.

What would be the point of blazing a new trail if you didn't intend for others to use it?

rj

 

[oggbashan]

More about the Promenade Concerts

In recent years the Promenade Concerts have been extended far beyond the Royal Albert Hall to Proms in the Park in Hyde Park, London, and in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast.

Tens of thousands of people turn up to the Proms in the Park events. As well as the traditional Last Night events they also get local orchestras performing classical and modern music.

The Proms in the Park are educating more people about music as well as the party Last Night.

My grandparents were Promenaders before the First World War. My parents (and in-laws) were Promenaders in the 1920s and 30s although my in-laws sat in the expensive seats. I, and my wife, were Promenaders in the 1950s and 60s. Our children went to the Proms. Now they take our grandchildren to them.

The Wiener Philharmoniker New Year's Day Concerts are very different. To get a seat at one of those you have to be 'somebody' and have money. The New Year's Day Concerts are charitable events raising money by presenting safe traditional Viennese Music. The orchestra waives their fees for the event.

The modern (that word is significant) purpose of the New Year's Day Concert is to give a present to the world. The Wiener Philharmoniker during the year plays a range of music, some of it experimental. But not on New Year's Day.

The London Promenade Concerts provide many first-ever performances of modern music as part of the structure of the promenade season. So does the Wiener Philharmoniker as part of their season.

But the New Year's Day Concert is deliberately traditional. Except for the second half of the Last Night, the Promenade Concerts aren't.

 

[oggbashan]

Back on theme.

I mentioned Duchamp in a post above.

Some blame him for modern art. Some celebrate him.

What he did was fundamentally change the perception of 'What is Art?'. Before Duchamp everyone knew what Art was. Duchamp made people look at things differently.

What he really said was 'It is Art if the artist says it is'. That was shocking and he was deliberately provocative.

 

[NicoleZ]

What would be the point of blazing a new trail if you didn't intend for others to use it?

rj

I guess this is an opportune moment to quote a favourite phrase of that immortal genius, Robert Heinlen:

"There is no such thing as a free breakfast."

 

[rjordan]

I guess this is an opportune moment to quote a favourite phrase of that immortal genius, Robert Heinlen:

"There is no such thing as a free breakfast."

TANSTAAFL predates Heinlein's use of the concept by several decades. So I guess he was a copycat trying to climb aboard the gravy train.

rj

 

[NicoleZ]

TANSTAAFL predates Heinlein's use of the concept by several decades. So I guess he was a copycat trying to climb aboard the gravy train.

rj

Nicely riposted, RJ!

Of course he was and so were Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury, Wyndham, Pohl and all the others as SF usually is said to have begun with Verne and Wells, but even they had precursors. I guess that if atheists were honest about it, they would label the Bible as the first SF novel and soon there would be two camps as the protagonists of the Indian Veda would claim that the latter was probably put down on paper slightly earlier than the OT.