The "perfect" protagonist

[dirk2024]

I've watched a video or two on YouTube about writing. A recent one was about our main characters. The person in the video was talking about creating a likeable protagonist, and to do this they shouldn't be 'perfect'. I do come across stories here were that was the authors goal, where the main character was the most beautiful/handsome, most athletic and of course, large breasts/cock.

Personally, I tend to get a little jaded about that. In my recent WIP's, I am trying to tone the descriptions down a bit, but still have some who are genetically blessed".

Back to the video, the woman pointed out nine factors (see list below). One question I have is, the person in the video is talking about novels, where many of us are writing short stories. Are the points below particularly attainable with fewer words? The biggest one I am concerned with is 'having no flaws', meaning we need to give our main characters flaws. I'm striving to not make mine 'perfect', but it seems like creating and inserting flaws and the subsequent story lines would get to be too much for an erotica short story. I do read a fair amount of stories here and, while I've read a lot of perfect characters, I don't recall any flawed one.

9 Ways to Make Readers HATE Your Main Character​

• They have no flaws
• They're too passive
• They feel like a stock character
• They have no objective
• They have no past
• They don't evolve
• They're out of touch
• They don't reveal their emotions
• They're melodramatic

What do you think?

 

[TheWritingGroup]

That reads like a list of novel protagonists. In a short story, many times the protagonist doesn't change and/or we don't learn their background, for example.

--Annie

 

[old_prof]

I certainly got more than my share of complaints about the FMC in my Winter Holidays event (Snow Fall in Love to be precise).

I would describe the general opinion of the negative comments as she was a "castrating bitch" I had at least a half dozen comments from people who said they didn't;t finish the story because they hated her too much. (She was the narrator.)

The story did reasonably well (4.85 rating) with lots of engagement (by my standards at least). Second most votes (477) and most views, favorites and comments for any Romance of mine.

It's the only character I have ever gotten such negative reaction too. I don't think any of your nine points even vaguely describe her.

EDIT: the story is a long Novella at 30K words)

 

[Kumquatqueen]

If they aren't unbelievably amazing at everything, and can speak some believable dialogue, I'm not too fussed, though I need some plot to keep me reading.

Currently my main annoyance is people in films or shows who are supposed to be endearingly incompetent at various things, and in fact are total nightmares you wouldn't want anything to do with. Just watched the first half hour of Last Christmas.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I usually write 10-15,000 words per piece or per chapter, so that's my experience. I concede that it's tougher in 2000-word stories. If I were going to touch on each of those nine specifically:

• No flaws is super common here, but I think it's easy to fix. Just... add some? I dunno. Katherine in Plugged In to me comes off as a stone bitch from like her third line of dialogue, and Daniel is a gossip.
• Too passive is another super common complaint, especially linked with active, aggressive female characters. There's a guy who does nothing and a bunch of girls sit on his dick -- super common formula. But it's also kind of easy to fix: just look at how often the characters are initiating stuff, and which things they initiate. If it's 100/0 in favor of one character, you probably have a problem, unless you're writing a strict power relationship or something.
• Stock characters are unavoidable in short stories, but I think people should still be aiming for texture in those stock characters.
• There should always be at least the minor objective of havin' sex. Beyond that, really depends on the story. In most short stories I think having the sex is enough.
• No past -- in most short stories it's not relevant.
• Evolution is a novel thing, I think, but in an ideal story you'd have the situation unfold to set the characters up for evolution after the story ends.
• Out of touch -- with what?
• Don't reveal their emotions --
• Melodramatic -- There's a gray area between the two and mostly your characters should be in that space between no emotions and ALL THE EMOTIONS.

On the physical side, I don't think I've ever read a story where big boobs or a big cock made boring sex pop off the page. If you can write a good sex scene for a character with a nine-inch dong or perfect porno tits, you can write a good sex scene for a character who's average.

Currently my main annoyance is people in films or shows who are supposed to be endearingly incompetent at various things, and in fact are total nightmares you wouldn't want anything to do with. Just watched the first half hour of Last Christmas.

Yes, this is deeply annoying. It's not quite as obnoxious as the omnicompetent princess who is also an orphan fae vampire whose best friend is a dragon, no, two dragons, but it's very obnoxious, especially in TV and film. I think you see it more there than on the page.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Oooh... New writers challenge, the Mary Sue challenge...

 

[NuclearFairy]

The shorter the story, the harder it is to avoid all of those. But, if you're avoiding at least the worst of them even in your shortest of stories I think you should be good.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Oooh... New writers challenge, the Mary Sue challenge...

Sorry, every romantasy author has us beat already. The 'you must be this high to ride this ride' is outwardly a fisherman's daughter but secretly uses the magic of starlight, inherited from her father the King of the Gods who she is fated to slay, to make weapons (and probably dildos and stuff); to win the Hunger Games she must ascend to godhood, her only friend a necromancer from a marginalized group with dark secrets, a huge cock and an interest in light bondage, because... some stars... are meant to fall.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I usually write 10-15,000 words per piece or per chapter, so that's my experience. I concede that it's tougher in 2000-word stories. If I were going to touch on each of those nine specifically:

• No flaws is super common here, but I think it's easy to fix. Just... add some? I dunno. Katherine in Plugged In to me comes off as a stone bitch from like her third line of dialogue, and Daniel is a gossip.
• Too passive is another super common complaint, especially linked with active, aggressive female characters. There's a guy who does nothing and a bunch of girls sit on his dick -- super common formula. But it's also kind of easy to fix: just look at how often the characters are initiating stuff, and which things they initiate. If it's 100/0 in favor of one character, you probably have a problem, unless you're writing a strict power relationship or something.
• Stock characters are unavoidable in short stories, but I think people should still be aiming for texture in those stock characters.
• There should always be at least the minor objective of havin' sex. Beyond that, really depends on the story. In most short stories I think having the sex is enough.
• No past -- in most short stories it's not relevant.
• Evolution is a novel thing, I think, but in an ideal story you'd have the situation unfold to set the characters up for evolution after the story ends.
• Out of touch -- with what?
• Don't reveal their emotions --
• Melodramatic -- There's a gray area between the two and mostly your characters should be in that space between no emotions and ALL THE EMOTIONS.

On the physical side, I don't think I've ever read a story where big boobs or a big cock made boring sex pop off the page. If you can write a good sex scene for a character with a nine-inch dong or perfect porno tits, you can write a good sex scene for a character who's average.


Yes, this is deeply annoying. It's not quite as obnoxious as the omnicompetent princess who is also an orphan fae vampire whose best friend is a dragon, no, two dragons, but it's very obnoxious, especially in TV and film. I think you see it more there than on the page.

Agreed - the latter smacks of My First Fanfic, and can be avoided by only reading fic in fandoms that don't appeal to teenagers.

I admit I have a very low tolerance for the cute incompetent blonde - my housemates banned me from watching Friends because I kept muttering 'kill, kill' every time Phoebe showed up. I'm not a fan of the incompetent male (often a dad) on TV (generally not in films) either, but at least they're not held up as someone we should relate to and/or want to shag.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Agreed - the latter smacks of My First Fanfic, and can be avoided by only reading fic in fandoms that don't appeal to teenagers.

I wish it wasn't most of fantasy publishing right now. But annoyingly it is.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I certainly got more than my share of complaints about the FMC in my Winter Holidays event (Snow Fall in Love to be precise).

I would describe the general opinion of the negative comments as she was a "castrating bitch" I had at least a half dozen comments from people who said they didn't;t finish the story because they hated her too much. (She was the narrator.)

The story did reasonably well (4.85 rating) with lots of engagement (by my standards at least). Second most votes (477) and most views, favorites and comments for any Romance of mine.

It's the only character I have ever gotten such negative reaction too. I don't think any of your nine points even vaguely describe her.

EDIT: the story is a long Novella at 30K words)

The list isn't of protagonists readers hate. It's of protagonists who inhabit boring stories people don't finish.

--Annie

 

[Erozetta]

I don't recall any flawed one.

See, I know you've read some of my work, so I'm hoping you just don't recall them rather than thinking any of my characters aren't flawed.

9 Ways to Make Readers HATE Your Main Character​

• They have no flaws
• They're too passive
• They feel like a stock character
• They have no objective
• They have no past
• They don't evolve
• They're out of touch
• They don't reveal their emotions
• They're melodramatic

What do you think?

I think: It depends on the story.

Every piece of advice a writer gives comes with the caveat of "Well, it depends. If your goal is *this* then that makes sense, but if you're trying to say *this* then you should consider these points for changes to accomplish that."

Are you writing about a God who's fed up with their creation and the whole story is just a missive of present observations of the creation and its failures? 'cause if so, most of that list is probably what you're aiming to create and it's not wrong to do so.

 

[designatedvictim]

• No flaws is super common here, but I think it's easy to fix. Just... add some? I dunno. Katherine in Plugged In to me comes off as a stone bitch from like her third line of dialogue, and Daniel is a gossip.
• Too passive is another super common complaint, especially linked with active, aggressive female characters. There's a guy who does nothing and a bunch of girls sit on his dick -- super common formula. But it's also kind of easy to fix: just look at how often the characters are initiating stuff, and which things they initiate. If it's 100/0 in favor of one character, you probably have a problem, unless you're writing a strict power relationship or something.
• Stock characters are unavoidable in short stories, but I think people should still be aiming for texture in those stock characters.
• There should always be at least the minor objective of havin' sex. Beyond that, really depends on the story. In most short stories I think having the sex is enough.
• No past -- in most short stories it's not relevant.
• Evolution is a novel thing, I think, but in an ideal story you'd have the situation unfold to set the characters up for evolution after the story ends.
• Out of touch -- with what?
• Don't reveal their emotions --
• Melodramatic -- There's a gray area between the two and mostly your characters should be in that space between no emotions and ALL THE EMOTIONS.

All of these apply more to novels and are less critical in shorts.

I haven't really built in flaws for my characters.

In my AWoS, the MMC was fairly passive, because he wasn't planning on boning his sister. Until he did and got less passive.

I like giving background info. Makes the characters less stock. Unfortunately, it adds to the word count, too. I get wordy and do slow-burns.

(And don't make fun of Star Wars movies... the fans can't handle it.)

My first, on-going story, the goal is simply sex, and lots of it.

Emotions appeared more in my longer story, than AWoS.

Melodrama isn't one of my strong suits.

On the physical side, I don't think I've ever read a story where big boobs or a big cock made boring sex pop off the page. If you can write a good sex scene for a character with a nine-inch dong or perfect porno tits, you can write a good sex scene for a character who's average.

One of the things I deliberately do is use characters of more modest endowment, for both partners in the tango.

I can't stand the trope of shy, timid, virgin-guy afraid to show himself to the FMC and winds up whipping out some ten-inch trouser snake anaconda.

As for the girls? What was that line? She breasted boobily?

Bleh!

 

[old_prof]

The list isn't of protagonists readers hate. It's of protagonists who inhabit boring stories people don't finish.

--Annie

9 Ways to Make Readers HATE Your Main Character

I think it explicitly says it's ways to make the reader HATE your MC.

 

[old_prof]

I mostly write longer stories. 80% of my stuff is probably 15K+. My second and third novels are in draft form waiting for edits (by me). I hope to have both of them out first quarter 26.

Short stories are not going to have a full character arc, but most of my short stories still have the MC coming to some realization or becoming comfortable with something. I want that personal progression in everything.

For the novella length stories and longer (most of what I write), I do look for flaws in my characters. That's part of their initial development for me. And internal conflict. And background.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I mostly write longer stories. 80% of my stuff is probably 15K+. My second and third novels are in draft form waiting for edits (by me). I hope to have both of them out first quarter 26.

Short stories are not going to have a full character arc, but most of my short stories still have the MC coming to some realization or becoming comfortable with something. I want that personal progression in everything.

For the novella length stories and longer (most of what I write), I do look for flaws in my characters. That's part of their initial development for me. And internal conflict. And background.

Even in short stories it shouldn't be that hard to have flaws, especially minor ones. You don't need to beat people over the head with them! A character can be a little pushy in a sentence or two, or a little hesitant or dumb because they missed a cue. Even having your MMC/FMC not feel like they're reading each other's minds can be enough!

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I think it explicitly says it's ways to make the reader HATE your MC.

OK. It's wrong.

 

[GingerCat1]

On this site another massive cliche is a guy having the "perfect" penis, so perfect that the moment any woman sees it she instantly has to have it inside her, no matter who she is.

Also if we get to the end of a story and all I know about the lead character is he likes having sex it is a bad story.

 

[NuclearFairy]

On this site another massive cliche is a guy having the "perfect" penis, so perfect that the moment any woman sees it she instantly has to have it inside her, no matter who she is.

Also if we get to the end of a story and all I know about the lead character is he likes having sex it is a bad story.

What if, it's a serial, and the next story starts off with his friends posing an intervention for his sex addiction?

 

[GingerCat1]

What if, it's a serial, and the next story starts off with his friends posing an intervention for his sex addiction?

Well at least being a serial killer is an interest outside of sex (well sort of, for some serial killers it is rather debatable).

 

[YmaOHyd]

What if, it's a serial, and the next story starts off with his friends posing an intervention for his sex addiction?

Then I'd say you haven't gotten to the end of the story yet. Plus I feel like you'd want to have the "buddy, you're a sex addict, this is an intervention" reveal at the end of the first chapter so it feels a little less like it's coming out of nowhere.

 

[THBGato]

In a short story, many times the protagonist doesn't change and/or we don't learn their background, for example.

Well, you are of course correct. BUT in the very best short-stories the protagonist does change (or we can see the shape of that change) and it is clear that there is a past (even if we don't get all the details).

Try this: "the one about Ann Summers" by @rusureaboutthis under 4k words, but a lot of change and the background sits there under the surface, like an iceberg. It's hot too!

Or my own 750 word gay male one... not claiming it's the very best BUT change and background are there.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I've watched a video or two on YouTube about writing. A recent one was about our main characters. The person in the video was talking about creating a likeable protagonist, and to do this they shouldn't be 'perfect'. I do come across stories here were that was the authors goal, where the main character was the most beautiful/handsome, most athletic and of course, large breasts/cock.

This is blatant in romance. The main characters are often perfectly physically hot (but not always) but more importantly (and more vomit-inducing) they are emotionally perfect. They have to be to be perfectly deserving of the emotional justice, the HEA that we know is coming. They are far too plucky for whatever predicaments have befallen them and they never deserve those ills. This is what I absolutely detest the most about romance.

I always always always put flaws in my main characters, both physically and in their psyche. They fall victim to their choices, their sins, etc. The plot readers understand this but the fantasy readers hate hate hate it with a passion because imperfections spoil their fantasy.

As far as physical traits, characters with physical flaws are far more fun to write and are far more interesting. Making a character overcome a physical drawback with a sexy attitude/personality is a challenge and makes that character extra sexy.

For psychological flaws, it lends far more depth to a plot when characters fuck up and have to figure out how to redeem themselves. If they have a guilty conscience over things, they can be very relatable for the reader as well. Most importantly, these characters drive plots which are unpredictable. A reader may be able to guess what happens next but is never sure and it can make for a very engaging read. Of course this is the essence of character development. Perfect character stays perfect = no character development. If characters develop, it means that they change during the story and if they change, obviously they will be at some point or another in a state of imperfection. It's simple logic.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

There's a guy who does nothing and a bunch of girls sit on his dick -- super common formula. But it's also kind of easy to fix: just look at how often the characters are initiating stuff, and which things they initiate. If it's 100/0 in favor of one character, you probably have a problem

Even more common than you say. ; P This is bang on, though. Male characters are rampantly precisely this limp on lit. It's okay if the plot is simply to get laid, but make the guy actually do something to try to get laid rather than have him win the fucking raffle draw first prize unicorn, come on. We call ourselves writers. Use some imagination. Try. Just a little. Most of the time the writer puts in as much effort in this department as the main male does (read: zero).

Stock characters are unavoidable in short stories, but I think people should still be aiming for texture in those stock characters.

I like this. That's well put. Give your characters some sort of unique spin.

No past -- in most short stories it's not relevant.

Yet we still get the all-too-common dreaded info dump.

Don't reveal their emotions --

This is a huge one on lit. So many stories depict the physical act yet gloss over the emotions of it or ignore them altogether. Even if the plot is simply to get laid. Why does the character want to get laid? Probably (and often this is actually mentioned in said info dump) because "it's been a while." If it's been that long, sharing intimacy should be emotional. It can be extremely powerful and poignant life memory just to be wanted for once, to be accepted, chosen to copulate. Instead we get, "Turns out that the milf next door that we've been lusting after since we moved in is secretly a slut and decides to make our day, cha-ching!" Perfectly valid fantasy - not judging in that way - but it makes a boring dime-a-dozen story.

 

[OddLove]

It's nice when a character has room to grow, then you get to read the growth wether it be something as simple as them standing up for themselves, stepping out of their shell, maturing emotionally, learning humility, overcoming a setback or crappy past, etc. It's definitely the 'secret sauce' lots of stories, movies, shows are lacking. I think that's the main reason shows like Dexter and Breaking Bad were huge. People related to flawed characters and it gave an extra deep layer lots of other shows don't have.