G
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
I see the difference between myself and the uninformed Limbaugh listeners of this board. I believe old dumb people have a right to vote - you don't.
I hope the contempt the repubs are showing for the elderly is not lost on one of the largest voting blocks in the country.
I also hope that one day some of the more vitriolic republicans everywhere will learn to forgive their mothers for not loving them. It was probably not their fault.
I hope the contempt the repubs are showing for the elderly is not lost on one of the largest voting blocks in the country.
I also hope that one day some of the more vitriolic republicans everywhere will learn to forgive their mothers for not loving them. It was probably not their fault.
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Cheyenne said:
Actually I'm 30. I would be bet that I make more money than you, have more education than you do, and have much more knowledge on any given subject then you could possibly dredge up.
You know Cheyenne, come to think of it, I've yet to see you weigh in with an intelligent political viewpoint. I tried to get you to say something relevent on another thread but you responded once again with a personal yet rather unimaginative insult. Do you ever say anything substantial, coherent, or intelligent? Just curious.
Samuari
Twice Blessed
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2000
- Posts
- 4,072
Woa there Big Guy. Do you realize that you just made her point for her? You ran out of issues so you began a personal attack. Typical Liberal mushy headedness. To begin with the Dity is a parody, a joke, and it is funny, but you do have to know the song that it is making fun of. The next thing is that This is a ballot, voting machine, and county election board system, that Republicans have complained about for the last three elections. It is only unfair when it is your ox that is being Gored. When it was repubs that were complaining that the butterfly ballot was illeagle and confusing, they were just lousy lossers.
But the final strasw is that you dems had the gal to circulate a memo instructing your election officals to systematicly invaildate the baollots of millitary personal serving overseas. This was too much for even your attorny general. You have no idea of the anger that you are generating out here in the heartland.
But the final strasw is that you dems had the gal to circulate a memo instructing your election officals to systematicly invaildate the baollots of millitary personal serving overseas. This was too much for even your attorny general. You have no idea of the anger that you are generating out here in the heartland.
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Samuari said:
Oops, you just showed your bias. How can I be expected to have an intelligent argument with a Dittohead? Go back to the Rush Limbaugh program, little man. I have no patience for sexists, racists, or mindless party-liners.
As for the rest of your post, it's such utter nonsense ripped straight from a GOP press release that I can't even be bothered with it. It's patently incorrect and untrue. Please, dear man, try reading mainstream new sources like CNN, ABC and NBC and quit relying on Rush, the Washington Times and FoxNews. You'll get a whole new perspective!
Is there anyone with whom I can discuss the issues - someone who can do so without invoking the word 'Liberal' as though it were a cancer or resorting to Rushisms? I forgot, this is a sex site. Silly me.
Cyan BloodsBane
harum-scarum
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2000
- Posts
- 1,480
Uhm..
Luscious Lionness,
Great song...
Luscious Lionness,
Great song...
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Bush partisans creating climate of resentment
by E.J. Dionne Jr.
Syndicated columnist
WASHINGTON - It's both right and fashionable to talk about how this Florida election impasse should be resolved in a way that will allow whoever wins our presidential election to govern.
There are lofty disquisitions on how important it will be for the new president to pursue a moderate program and to name a Cabinet that includes members of the opposition party. It's all perfectly reasonable. But none of it will matter if one side is seen as being so partisan in its effort to seize the presidency that it didn't care a whit about facts, traditions, laws, legitimate disagreement or the rights of its adversaries.
Let there be no pretense: Both campaigns are aggressively pursuing their own interests. But the efforts of Republicans to delegitimize Al Gore's insistence on a hand recount in a very close election will prove especially destructive. It involves turning a matter of immediate convenience into an issue of high doctrine. People who never had a single thought about what hand recounts do or don't mean have suddenly discovered they hold unshakeable principles on the subject.
They now rhapsodize about the virtues of machines and computers in comparison with living, breathing, thinking human beings. Never mind that state laws (in Texas, for example) and Republican candidates have long leaned on hand recounts to validate what voters actually intended.
The Bush campaign follows a two-step strategy. Inside the counting rooms, its supporters challenge every ballot that might have been cast for Al Gore. The challenges, which are their legitimate right, also slow down and complicate the count.
Outside the counting rooms, the Bush people act as if their supporters aren't even inside - and then seize on the complexity those supporters create to discredit the process. They decry the recounts as terribly partisan, controlled by "Democrat" counties. They pretend that Democrats just sit there, undisturbed, making up votes for Al Gore. But if the process weren't open, they wouldn't have the grist for many of the charges they throw around on television.
Republicans crow when the recounts don't immediately produce as many votes for Gore as Democrats hoped they would. But if the counting were as partisan as the Republicans claim, Gore would have gone ahead of Bush by Sunday on the basis of votes "manufactured" by his minions in those "Democrat" counties.
If the Bush partisans were honest about what they were doing - pursuing a tough strategy aimed at minimizing the Democratic vote - they would be well within the tradition of these fights. All recounts are difficult. Many in the past have devolved into shouting and even fistfights.
But Bush's supporters are doing something more insidious: They are pretending that Gore, in pursuing his legitimate rights as a candidate in a very close contest, is trying to steal the election. "We are witnessing nothing less than a theft in process," said House Whip Tom DeLay. The normally reasonable Montana Gov. Marc Racicot said Gore is willing to "win at any cost."
No, Gore just wants a recount - which, yes, he hopes will give him victory.
So do Republicans who find themselves behind in other close races held the same day as the Bush-Gore contest. Take the case of Republican congressional candidate Dick Zimmer in New Jersey, who is seeking a recount in his narrow race with Rep. Rush Holt, a Democrat. As of Monday morning, Zimmer said he was running 400 to 500 votes behind. Roughly 290,000 votes were cast. "I owe it to the people who voted for me to make sure that it was an accurate and legitimate count," he said in an interview.
Perfectly fair. And Zimmer's deficit is proportionately larger than Gore's in Florida. If Zimmer is entitled to a recount, which he is, then Gore is at least as entitled.
Again, there's nothing wrong with the Bush apparat protecting its candidate's interests. But its vicious attacks on Gore and Democratic officials in Florida will create deep resentments among Democrats everywhere else. They will never believe a single word Bush says about his alleged desire to overcome partisanship and to bring people together.
Assume for a moment that Bush wins the presidency at the end of this mess. Republicans (including Bush's campaign people and their supporters in the commentating class) are doing great damage to his ability to be a successful president.
Republicans never understood how angry Democrats were about the impeachment of President Clinton. That anger encompassed even those Democrats who were furious at the president and despised the mess his scandal created for their party and their country.
Once again, Republicans are underestimating the impact of their inflammatory rhetoric and their willingness to push matters to the limit, and beyond. What's said and done now will not be forgotten in six months, or in a year - or in four years.
[Edited by Daytripper on 11-21-2000 at 05:19 PM]
by E.J. Dionne Jr.
Syndicated columnist
WASHINGTON - It's both right and fashionable to talk about how this Florida election impasse should be resolved in a way that will allow whoever wins our presidential election to govern.
There are lofty disquisitions on how important it will be for the new president to pursue a moderate program and to name a Cabinet that includes members of the opposition party. It's all perfectly reasonable. But none of it will matter if one side is seen as being so partisan in its effort to seize the presidency that it didn't care a whit about facts, traditions, laws, legitimate disagreement or the rights of its adversaries.
Let there be no pretense: Both campaigns are aggressively pursuing their own interests. But the efforts of Republicans to delegitimize Al Gore's insistence on a hand recount in a very close election will prove especially destructive. It involves turning a matter of immediate convenience into an issue of high doctrine. People who never had a single thought about what hand recounts do or don't mean have suddenly discovered they hold unshakeable principles on the subject.
They now rhapsodize about the virtues of machines and computers in comparison with living, breathing, thinking human beings. Never mind that state laws (in Texas, for example) and Republican candidates have long leaned on hand recounts to validate what voters actually intended.
The Bush campaign follows a two-step strategy. Inside the counting rooms, its supporters challenge every ballot that might have been cast for Al Gore. The challenges, which are their legitimate right, also slow down and complicate the count.
Outside the counting rooms, the Bush people act as if their supporters aren't even inside - and then seize on the complexity those supporters create to discredit the process. They decry the recounts as terribly partisan, controlled by "Democrat" counties. They pretend that Democrats just sit there, undisturbed, making up votes for Al Gore. But if the process weren't open, they wouldn't have the grist for many of the charges they throw around on television.
Republicans crow when the recounts don't immediately produce as many votes for Gore as Democrats hoped they would. But if the counting were as partisan as the Republicans claim, Gore would have gone ahead of Bush by Sunday on the basis of votes "manufactured" by his minions in those "Democrat" counties.
If the Bush partisans were honest about what they were doing - pursuing a tough strategy aimed at minimizing the Democratic vote - they would be well within the tradition of these fights. All recounts are difficult. Many in the past have devolved into shouting and even fistfights.
But Bush's supporters are doing something more insidious: They are pretending that Gore, in pursuing his legitimate rights as a candidate in a very close contest, is trying to steal the election. "We are witnessing nothing less than a theft in process," said House Whip Tom DeLay. The normally reasonable Montana Gov. Marc Racicot said Gore is willing to "win at any cost."
No, Gore just wants a recount - which, yes, he hopes will give him victory.
So do Republicans who find themselves behind in other close races held the same day as the Bush-Gore contest. Take the case of Republican congressional candidate Dick Zimmer in New Jersey, who is seeking a recount in his narrow race with Rep. Rush Holt, a Democrat. As of Monday morning, Zimmer said he was running 400 to 500 votes behind. Roughly 290,000 votes were cast. "I owe it to the people who voted for me to make sure that it was an accurate and legitimate count," he said in an interview.
Perfectly fair. And Zimmer's deficit is proportionately larger than Gore's in Florida. If Zimmer is entitled to a recount, which he is, then Gore is at least as entitled.
Again, there's nothing wrong with the Bush apparat protecting its candidate's interests. But its vicious attacks on Gore and Democratic officials in Florida will create deep resentments among Democrats everywhere else. They will never believe a single word Bush says about his alleged desire to overcome partisanship and to bring people together.
Assume for a moment that Bush wins the presidency at the end of this mess. Republicans (including Bush's campaign people and their supporters in the commentating class) are doing great damage to his ability to be a successful president.
Republicans never understood how angry Democrats were about the impeachment of President Clinton. That anger encompassed even those Democrats who were furious at the president and despised the mess his scandal created for their party and their country.
Once again, Republicans are underestimating the impact of their inflammatory rhetoric and their willingness to push matters to the limit, and beyond. What's said and done now will not be forgotten in six months, or in a year - or in four years.
[Edited by Daytripper on 11-21-2000 at 05:19 PM]
Nobody Special's wife
Just Peeking
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2000
- Posts
- 2,702
WOOHOO she is rocking the lit now!!!
Weird Harold
Opinionated Old Fart
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2000
- Posts
- 23,768
"Perfectly fair. And Zimmer's deficit is proportionately larger than Gore's in Florida. If Zimmer is entitled to a recount, which he is, then Gore is at least as entitled.
"
A recount which Al Gore has gotten.
How many recounts do think it will take to elect him?
"
A recount which Al Gore has gotten.
How many recounts do think it will take to elect him?
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Zimmer requested a hand recount, as has Gore. This is the only recount that Gore has specifically requested, the other being automatically put into play by Florida state law.
The Republicans have fought tooth and nail both recounts thus far.
Dionne, author of the above article, wrote "Why Americans Hate Politics" which was a balanced look at the failings of both left and right. Got reviewed well by a right-wing magazine, National Review:
"One of the nation's shrewdest political observers traces 30 years of volatile political history, explores what has gone wrong with American politics, and offers a bipartisan look toward a more productive future. This acclaimed national bestseller won the 1991 Los Angeles Times Book Award.
"A gripping, page-by-page analysis of what ails us."--National Review.
Unlike most of his peers, actually has a Ph.D, I think from either Harvard or Georgetown, in political science.
So, I would weigh his words carefully here, since he understands the process better than most political reporters.
What he is saying is simple, the GOP is really poisoning the well with their arguments. It's one thing to question how the recount is going, but to start playing with hot buttons like civil-military relations is scary.
Things got so bad that Bob Kerrey, who has no love for either Bush or Gore and detests Clinton, jumped in this mess.
The problem in this situation is that people get reckless. Winning becomes so important that tactics are the only guide. Bush still has to deal with not only a 50-50 Senate and a nearly tied house, but a legacy of distrust he and his people are creating. They can stall him for two years and then just fuck with him after they gain majorities in the '02 elections.
You cannot scream fraud without proof and then say, "just kidding" six weeks later when you have to govern. The GOP waited six years to get Clinton on the flimsiest of charges and were shocked when it blew up in their faces.
What happens if Bosnia blows up as soon as Bush is inarguarated and Congress demands he invokes the War Powers act. He has to have democrats sign on to pass his budget in the Senate.
The Dems started to villify the GOP in the 1980's, and Newt Gingrich basically called Democrats unamerican in the 1990's. This is not what people want. They want people to work together.
Here's a simple question: do you think Jeb Bush is going to be a two-term governor? Or do you think the Dems are gonna remember this and push turnout to record levels when he runs again?
What happens when a Republican is in a tight race? All their arguments will come back to haunt them.
The smart move would have been to have a statewide recount and have Bush and Gore meet and agree to some fair resolution of the ballot question.
Instead, all manner of nightmare now approaches.
The Republicans have fought tooth and nail both recounts thus far.
Dionne, author of the above article, wrote "Why Americans Hate Politics" which was a balanced look at the failings of both left and right. Got reviewed well by a right-wing magazine, National Review:
"One of the nation's shrewdest political observers traces 30 years of volatile political history, explores what has gone wrong with American politics, and offers a bipartisan look toward a more productive future. This acclaimed national bestseller won the 1991 Los Angeles Times Book Award.
"A gripping, page-by-page analysis of what ails us."--National Review.
Unlike most of his peers, actually has a Ph.D, I think from either Harvard or Georgetown, in political science.
So, I would weigh his words carefully here, since he understands the process better than most political reporters.
What he is saying is simple, the GOP is really poisoning the well with their arguments. It's one thing to question how the recount is going, but to start playing with hot buttons like civil-military relations is scary.
Things got so bad that Bob Kerrey, who has no love for either Bush or Gore and detests Clinton, jumped in this mess.
The problem in this situation is that people get reckless. Winning becomes so important that tactics are the only guide. Bush still has to deal with not only a 50-50 Senate and a nearly tied house, but a legacy of distrust he and his people are creating. They can stall him for two years and then just fuck with him after they gain majorities in the '02 elections.
You cannot scream fraud without proof and then say, "just kidding" six weeks later when you have to govern. The GOP waited six years to get Clinton on the flimsiest of charges and were shocked when it blew up in their faces.
What happens if Bosnia blows up as soon as Bush is inarguarated and Congress demands he invokes the War Powers act. He has to have democrats sign on to pass his budget in the Senate.
The Dems started to villify the GOP in the 1980's, and Newt Gingrich basically called Democrats unamerican in the 1990's. This is not what people want. They want people to work together.
Here's a simple question: do you think Jeb Bush is going to be a two-term governor? Or do you think the Dems are gonna remember this and push turnout to record levels when he runs again?
What happens when a Republican is in a tight race? All their arguments will come back to haunt them.
The smart move would have been to have a statewide recount and have Bush and Gore meet and agree to some fair resolution of the ballot question.
Instead, all manner of nightmare now approaches.
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Another thing: The saddest thing about this whole Florida debacle to me is that there was no "diplomatic" period once the election became suspect. It skipped the diplomacy phase and went straight to War. I am a firm believer in diplomacy as a way to compromise and problem resolution.
Unfortunately, the Left fired the first salvo by immediately filing 8 lawsuits and must be held accountable for starting the War. Bush must be held accountable for turning down Gore's extraordinary offer to meet and try to find a solution. Both sides have failed the test of statesmanship.
Unfortunately, the Left fired the first salvo by immediately filing 8 lawsuits and must be held accountable for starting the War. Bush must be held accountable for turning down Gore's extraordinary offer to meet and try to find a solution. Both sides have failed the test of statesmanship.
G
Guest
Guest
It is too important for Republicans to win this election. It is OK if Republicans cheat on the ballots because the outcome justifies the means. I believe in George W. Bush because I think he will do the right thing. We need to clean up this country. We need to go back to traditional values and go back to hanging liberals alongside niggers from trees. We need to arm ourselves and conquer other countries because the world should be American.
George W. Bush is the right man for the job!
George W. Bush is the right man for the job!
Laurel
Kitty Mama
- Joined
- Aug 27, 1999
- Posts
- 20,693
I just heard Gore's speech. He, unlike Bush, has not claimed to know the outcome of the recount. Also unlike GWB, he's said he will accept the verdict of the Florida recount, even though he won in the popular vote. Gore said that the Rule of Law was most important. Funny thing is, CNN reported about two weeks before the election that Bush and his advisors were planning to try to find a way AROUND the Electoral College in case they won the popular vote and lost the electoral vote.
So, if Gore's still a loser at the end of this count, he has said he will accept that. However, Bush has not stated that he will accept the Florida recount without further challenges. Where could he take it to - the Supreme Court? Anyone? anyone? Bueller?
Another thing, where IS Bush - having a hissy fit on his ranch? Geez, if the election's got him all stressed out, I'd hate to see how he handles an international crisis!
So, if Gore's still a loser at the end of this count, he has said he will accept that. However, Bush has not stated that he will accept the Florida recount without further challenges. Where could he take it to - the Supreme Court? Anyone? anyone? Bueller?
Another thing, where IS Bush - having a hissy fit on his ranch? Geez, if the election's got him all stressed out, I'd hate to see how he handles an international crisis!
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Laurel said:
Fact is the US SC won't take this case.
Ironic thing is that, even if it did, the US SC is of a conservative bent, deferring to states' rights (like Dubya used to), and would affirm the FL SC's decision.
While Gore's managing this situation like a rat in heat, doing 16 hour days 7 days a week, Dubyah's chillin' back at the ranch, without cable TV, 2 hours drive from the nearest teleprompter, and has delegated all the heavy lifting to his Daddy's handlers.
Problem is, those folks, like James A. Baker III, are well in there seventies, and have been jerked out of retirement so quickly they can't compete.
Also, being a Texan & having seen GW in action for 6 years there are 2 reasons you arent seeing him now
1) he has a very bad temper - and he ends up seeming petulant
2) he doesnt do well without a rehearsed speech. he fumbles questions and makes misstatements and gets himself in trouble (we saw that in the campaign)
Can you imagine what would happen to him if he did both of the above now?
Cheyenne
Ms. Smarty Pantsless
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2000
- Posts
- 59,553
Daytripper said:
That's nice. You're 30 going on 85. And my butt is getting sore from sitting here so long waiting for you to show some of that knowledge.
(Edit: Target was just too easy, so I edited to just one remaining comment below to spare the rest of you.)
I get to dredge up a subject for you to show your superior knowledge? Oh, goody! Here's one you can discuss that might actually help me. See, I have this purchase accounting issue with an acquisition completed last year. The goodwill allocation needs to be reconsidered because the basis of allocation has changed since the initial calculations. Now, can I include that change as part of the purchase accounting adjustment in the one year window for completion and thereby just adjust the general goodwill amount? Or, does the revaluation need to be considered as an asset impairment issue to be settled with cash flow analysis instead? Hmmmm? Oh yeah, it would help me if you had an answer by next Monday.
[Edited by Cheyenne on 11-21-2000 at 09:45 PM]
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Oh, an accountant. I should have guessed. No, I'm not in sales. I am in tech, specifically in the administration of computer networks for major corporations. So while you're waiting for my response to your pithy accounting problem, I'll be waiting for your report on the virtues of UNIX versus Windows NT.
You still haven't made one coherent point. More attacks. Yawn.
You still haven't made one coherent point. More attacks. Yawn.
Oliver Clozoff
SirRealism
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2000
- Posts
- 7,468
Come on, Laurel! Don't give up on your candidate GWB yet! He's still in this thing. If I didn't know better, I'd think that you're almost starting to want Gore to win this "rag doll" of an election.
Laurel
Kitty Mama
- Joined
- Aug 27, 1999
- Posts
- 20,693
LOL! No, I don't want Gore to win. However, the way the Repubs are going about this really chaffs my hide. They've changed directions so many times I'M dizzy! "Keep this out of the courts" then they file the first lawsuits. "Quick and timely matter" then when it's shown that recounts can be done expeditiously, they file more lawsuits.
Here are the facts...both parties are doing what's in their best interest. No one can fault them for that - they both want to win. But the Republicans are trying to act as though what Gore is doing is unethical somehow, even though they're the ones that are fighting state laws.
In a Senate race this year, a Republican asked for a hand count and won by virtue of that hand count. I don't hear any Republicans say he "stole the race". I guess hand counts aren't inaccurate and error-prone if they help you win. The hypocrisy kills me.
Here are the facts...both parties are doing what's in their best interest. No one can fault them for that - they both want to win. But the Republicans are trying to act as though what Gore is doing is unethical somehow, even though they're the ones that are fighting state laws.
In a Senate race this year, a Republican asked for a hand count and won by virtue of that hand count. I don't hear any Republicans say he "stole the race". I guess hand counts aren't inaccurate and error-prone if they help you win. The hypocrisy kills me.
Cheyenne
Ms. Smarty Pantsless
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2000
- Posts
- 59,553
Daytripper said:
What's the matter- the pithy question is too much for you? But you wanted me to dredge up a topic for you that you were sure to know more about. Answer the question, please, and show us your vast knowledge. That question is worth about $140 million to my company at the moment, I could really use a good answer.
Okay, I'll put one piece of my edited response back. Last time you asked I told you to go check out Lasher's thread on the eight ball for my political views. Did you ever manage to do that or was the search function too techie for you?
And by the way, let me know if and when you ever make it to a lower level management spot and you're out of the techie support ranks. As a VP for one of those major type corporations you do work for, I eat you people for lunch. Or at least edit you out of the budget before I approve it if you bore me.
Daytripper
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2000
- Posts
- 76
Cheyenne said:
Yawn. I Went back to that thread, got to the post where you wrote "Whine Whine Whine!", thought "Oh, how very mature, on topic and informative", and found something else to do.
Again, more insults from you. You obviously have nothing worthwhile to say, so I'll go argue with Lasher or someone who actually knows something about politics. Ciao.
