The Now, More Than Apparent, Folly of Government (political)

amicus

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They always hated the big gas guzzling American cars, those tidy little Europeans with their toy automobiles. I just smiled with tolerance.

It was never humorous as they shut down the forests to preserve the owls and home prices increased. Nor amusing when they shut down fishing to preserve the species and at the same time halted any further construction of hydroelectric dams. The cost of fish and electricity increased.

More pain when they 'mitigated' wet lands and prevented human habitation from expanding and brought about a housing shortage.

The efforts to 'clean up' the coal and gas fired generators of electricity added dollars and dollars per month the the energy bill of every consumer. Prices of all commodities increased as factories and plants paid a larger energy bill.

Government supported the power of the labor unions, which soon, with increased wages and benefits, drove the price of American manufactured automobiles so high that foreign factories could produce, promote and ship and undersell the American made product.

It was government in general that has forbid the construction of nuclear power plants for nearly forty years; the same length of time since a new oil refinery was constructed. And of course, the government is instrumental in preventing oil exploration in the continental United States and in offshore waters.

Now, as the 2008 General election looms, we suffer record high prices for gasoline and diesel fuel. This means increased costs for airlines and trucking companies, not to speak of the daily commuter, the soccer mom who shops and takes kids to after school events.

Government again decided to make fuel out of corn, the 'ethanol craze', the side effect of which, is to increase and in some cases double food prices of beef, milk, eggs, cereal grains and a host of other essential items.

Solar energy is not a viable answer, nor are wind farms as even far left Massachusetts says, "NIMBY" Not In My Back Yard!" Hell no!

The chickens have finally come home to roost. Starting as far back as Gifford Pinchot, (look him up) and the National Forests fiasco, through Roosevelt and his New Deal, through the New Frontier of Kennedy and the Great Society of Johnson, the avarice of big government is calling in the cards.

It had to happen, sooner or later, didn't it?

It is only going to get worse, mark my word.

It is a ten year lead time and tens of billions of dollars of investment, risk, venture capital to bring a nuclear plant online. About the same for a new offshore drilling site or exploration and development in such places as the sacred ANWAR.

My point being, just so you can not evade it; you brought this on yourselves. You asked for it, you got it.

The usual course of action for a failed governmental program at this stage, would be to Nationalize all industry, conscript labor, freeze prices and wages and essentially institute Marshal Law and draft all eighteen year olds' for national services of one sort or another.

All contingency plans on the books for both Obama and Clinton.

Read it and weep my friends and remember...I told you so.

I have been telling you so for most of my professional life, somewhat over forty years now.

I trust you enjoy your Utopian future; I hope your children understand how and why you failed them. It was such a beautiful dream was it not? Everything for free: education, health care, retirement, all paid for by someone else.

No, it won't all happen tomorrow, but it is inevitable, the dye is cast, you made your choices and the consequences will arrive.

Amicus....
 
They always hated the big gas guzzling American cars, those tidy little Europeans with their toy automobiles.
We never hated 'em. We just never had the cheapo gas needed to afford to drive 'em.
 
We never hated 'em. We just never had the cheapo gas needed to afford to drive 'em.


~~~


I am full of hyperbole, you know that. I rode a moto through Amsterdam a long while ago and marveled at the thousands and thousands of bicycles with grown men and women on them and tried to understand the difference between there and New York City.

It took a while...


amicus...
 
And not forgetting the distances involved. There are numerous reasons for smaller cars. We don't have to drive very far usually; there are exceptions. The US is a much larger country and more sparsely populated than Europe.
The government are encouraging ( ! ) drivers to use smaller, more efficient cars with horrendous taxes on fuel (we pay about £6 a gallon now- $12 ) and road tax that goes up with the size of the engine - I pay £400 a year.

But, our governments want a livable planet for the future generations of voters.
 
AMICUS

Nearly all of the examples you cite benefit Democrat core constituency groups: The tree-huggers chase rainbows, the lawyers chase ambulances, unions chase the free lunch, and bureaucrats chase their tails. But it works for the Republicans because it increases the money their core constituents get after everyone is pacified.

Thirty years ago our Democrat county commissioners and Republican utility owners climbed in bed together to provoke a sham battle for control of the water & sewer companies. The owners wanted to sell, and the county wanted to buy, but the value of the utilities was zip. So they created a war that enraged the citizens. In the end the county bought all the water & sewer plants for millions more than they were worth. In fact, most of the sewer plants were pipes that dumped raw sewage into our two rivers. And all of the county commissioners were convicted of racketeering. Three went to prison.
 
Interesting then that the current situation is the direct result of greedhead, take-the-money-and-run, anything for a buck republican policies.

"Conservative" is a misnomer.
 
I must have done something wrong in composing this lil missive, no one is yelling at me?

Or do you maybe, finally, get it and see from whence Amicus cometh?

Oh, my....:confused:


a pozzled amicus...
 
They always hated the big gas guzzling American cars, those tidy little Europeans with their toy automobiles. I just smiled with tolerance.

...Amicus....

No. We didn't hate the American cars. Our governments made sure we couldn't afford them by protective taxation. In the 1920s and 1930s American cars were far more reliable and comfortable than UK made ones but their large engines were taxed unfairly.

A Ford Tin Lizzy had the same circulation tax as a Bentley - UK citizens had to pay about half the cost of buying the Tin Lizzy in annual tax. Ford Europe eventually produced a miniscule-engined car for the European tax regimes and became a major player.

In the African parts of the British Empire American cars were preferred because British cars would fall to bits or their woodwork would be eaten by termites. British cars were designed for well-maintained but narrow roads and low annual mileages. British and European towns, built in the Middle Ages, were (and are) difficult to negotiate with a large car.

After 1945 the UK government changed the circulation tax regime but we couldn't afford American cars (or any cars). Now we are going back to the old system - large engined cars are being taxed punitively. The cost of gas (petrol here) is high. I've just paid 51 pounds (about 100 dollars) to top up my car.

We might like to able to choose large US cars but they don't fit on our roads - especially the ones the Romans built.

Og
 
They always hated the big gas guzzling American cars, those tidy little Europeans with their toy automobiles. I just smiled with tolerance.

It was never humorous as they shut down the forests to preserve the owls and home prices increased. Nor amusing when they shut down fishing to preserve the species and at the same time halted any further construction of hydroelectric dams. The cost of fish and electricity increased.

More pain when they 'mitigated' wet lands and prevented human habitation from expanding and brought about a housing shortage.

The efforts to 'clean up' the coal and gas fired generators of electricity added dollars and dollars per month the the energy bill of every consumer. Prices of all commodities increased as factories and plants paid a larger energy bill.

Government supported the power of the labor unions, which soon, with increased wages and benefits, drove the price of American manufactured automobiles so high that foreign factories could produce, promote and ship and undersell the American made product.

It was government in general that has forbid the construction of nuclear power plants for nearly forty years; the same length of time since a new oil refinery was constructed. And of course, the government is instrumental in preventing oil exploration in the continental United States and in offshore waters.

Now, as the 2008 General election looms, we suffer record high prices for gasoline and diesel fuel. This means increased costs for airlines and trucking companies, not to speak of the daily commuter, the soccer mom who shops and takes kids to after school events.

Government again decided to make fuel out of corn, the 'ethanol craze', the side effect of which, is to increase and in some cases double food prices of beef, milk, eggs, cereal grains and a host of other essential items.

Solar energy is not a viable answer, nor are wind farms as even far left Massachusetts says, "NIMBY" Not In My Back Yard!" Hell no!

The chickens have finally come home to roost. Starting as far back as Gifford Pinchot, (look him up) and the National Forests fiasco, through Roosevelt and his New Deal, through the New Frontier of Kennedy and the Great Society of Johnson, the avarice of big government is calling in the cards.

It had to happen, sooner or later, didn't it?

It is only going to get worse, mark my word.

It is a ten year lead time and tens of billions of dollars of investment, risk, venture capital to bring a nuclear plant online. About the same for a new offshore drilling site or exploration and development in such places as the sacred ANWAR.

My point being, just so you can not evade it; you brought this on yourselves. You asked for it, you got it.

The usual course of action for a failed governmental program at this stage, would be to Nationalize all industry, conscript labor, freeze prices and wages and essentially institute Marshal Law and draft all eighteen year olds' for national services of one sort or another.

All contingency plans on the books for both Obama and Clinton.

Read it and weep my friends and remember...I told you so.

I have been telling you so for most of my professional life, somewhat over forty years now.

I trust you enjoy your Utopian future; I hope your children understand how and why you failed them. It was such a beautiful dream was it not? Everything for free: education, health care, retirement, all paid for by someone else.

No, it won't all happen tomorrow, but it is inevitable, the dye is cast, you made your choices and the consequences will arrive.

Amicus....

No offence, but I thought you were all for American Imperialism and hardly democracy?
 
Ouch! Hey Ogg, I felt that jab about Roman roads, nice tongue in cheek reposte my Limey friend...

;)

ami...
 
No offence, but I thought you were all for American Imperialism and hardly democracy?

~~~

Dear Charley, the characteristics you and others often attribute to me are mostly fabricated in your own mind, I guess.

The key and essential ingredient to understanding me is a simple expression of human individual liberty with the acknowledgment that each is endowed with the basic right to exist without the permission of others.

A form of government that acts only to protect those innate rights is my choice and the extended right, to preserve ones existence, that of freely trading between each other, is merely an extension of individual rights.

You folks like to beat it up as scurrilous capitalism as a whipping boy, thas okay, I understand, but realize that the free market is just an extension of the basic human condition of being born free.

Better stock up on Big Mac's, freeze a hundred or so kid, with the way things are going, American enterprise is going to shrink back within our borders and curl up in a fetal position.

ami...
 
~~~

Dear Charley, the characteristics you and others often attribute to me are mostly fabricated in your own mind, I guess.

The key and essential ingredient to understanding me is a simple expression of human individual liberty with the acknowledgment that each is endowed with the basic right to exist without the permission of others.

A form of government that acts only to protect those innate rights is my choice and the extended right, to preserve ones existence, that of freely trading between each other, is merely an extension of individual rights.

You folks like to beat it up as scurrilous capitalism as a whipping boy, thas okay, I understand, but realize that the free market is just an extension of the basic human condition of being born free.

Better stock up on Big Mac's, freeze a hundred or so kid, with the way things are going, American enterprise is going to shrink back within our borders and curl up in a fetal position.

ami...


Ami-

I find it interesting that you use the fight against the windmills in Mass. as an example for this tirade. Do you truly understand what the fight there is all about? Who the players are and where they are coming from? I have been following this since the idea was first broached and am continously surprised at what is said and is done. (It just makes me feel even stronger that outsiders should not be allowed a say in local things.)

Cat
 
Seems to me, Seacat, that the Kennedy clan, aka, Senator Ted Kennedy is leading the opposition.

I suppose you can call my post a 'tirade', have it your way.

It is a lovely, if unreal dream, to think that wind power or solar power, even geothermal, can replace the current electricity generating plants. The wind does not always blow and the sun does not always shine. Do the math.

The alternative, 'boutique' ways to generate electricity simply will not support the modern industrial status of the United States or for that matter, any other industrialized nation.

The dreamers don't really care about the facts, they believe the world is overpopulated any way and if nine out of ten humans succumbed to starvation, their opinion is that, that would serve them right and the world would be a better place anyway with fewer people.

For those who do not have that basic respect for human life, there really is no argument in opposition to them, human life is expendable in their eyes.

Not so mine.

Amicus...
 
There are many clean ways to generate power but conservation (that is to say using stingy appliances and alternate light bulbs) is a lot cheaper than building any of them. In time we will have to come up with something better than we have now. I personally disagree with your assessment of geothermal power come the day we can drill to hot dry rock! Mama Earth isn't going to cool down for a very long time. Unfortunately that technology is too "industrial" for the Greenies so it isn't getting any funding.
 
[QUOTE=voluptuary_manque;26922060]There are many clean ways to generate power but conservation (that is to say using stingy appliances and alternate light bulbs) is a lot cheaper than building any of them. In time we will have to come up with something better than we have now. I personally disagree with your assessment of geothermal power come the day we can drill to hot dry rock! Mama Earth isn't going to cool down for a very long time. Unfortunately that technology is too "industrial" for the Greenies so it isn't getting any funding.[/QUOTE]


~~~

I fully agree that conserving ones resources is a wise and practical way to live, as long as it not forced upon you.

Being a bit of a rebel, I was quick to confront local authorities who placed a ban on christmas lights, I went out and bought 2500 lights and fired them up. My damned electric bill, I will use what I choose, not them.

One of my first science fiction stories, sighs, seems like a hundred years ago, the entire city was powered by water turned to steam by geothermal heat in pipes and holes drilled into the earth's crust. It perhaps is not as practical as my fictional story, but I still think it could be a partial solution.

It has been known for a very long time that fossil fuels would one day either run out or become to expensive to use. Nuclear power was seen as the solution, but politics got in the way and now we really do have a problem to deal with.

There is enough coal in the US to supply electricity for the next several hundred years and I imagine the coal miner's union and their political backers will move in that direction.

I wish this government were smart enough to turn the energy problem over to the experts, the energy companies that started on the ground floor a hundred years ago.

Amicus...
 
Seems to me, Seacat, that the Kennedy clan, aka, Senator Ted Kennedy is leading the opposition.

I suppose you can call my post a 'tirade', have it your way.

It is a lovely, if unreal dream, to think that wind power or solar power, even geothermal, can replace the current electricity generating plants. The wind does not always blow and the sun does not always shine. Do the math.

The alternative, 'boutique' ways to generate electricity simply will not support the modern industrial status of the United States or for that matter, any other industrialized nation.

The dreamers don't really care about the facts, they believe the world is overpopulated any way and if nine out of ten humans succumbed to starvation, their opinion is that, that would serve them right and the world would be a better place anyway with fewer people.

For those who do not have that basic respect for human life, there really is no argument in opposition to them, human life is expendable in their eyes.

Not so mine.

Amicus...


Ami, okay maybe the title Tirade is wrong, let's call it a discussion then.

Yes Teddy is one of the main backers of Save our Sound, yet he didn't create it nor does he run it. (In fact the person who is the current president of Save our Sound has a long background working with the Coal Industry, he has not lived on the Cape.)

The arguments they have been using against the Wind Farm are actually laughable to those who know ther area. One of their main concerns has been that it would be a hazard to navigation. (It is being placed on a shoal for crying out loud, Unless you are in a shallow draft boat and/or know the shoal you stay away from it.) It is a hazard to migrating birds. (They have yet to show any proof of this from operating Windfarms around the world.) It will cause Noise Pollution. (More noise than Jet Skis and other small water craft?) It is a private enterpise being built on government land. (Which was okayed by the government. Much like the drilling for oil they want to have done on government lands by private corporations.)

No the true problems they have with this are that it will possibly clutter up their view of the horizon, and they won't be profiting from it.

I have never claimed that alternative energy is the cure to the problem, you are correct in that assesment of the problem. All of the alternatives, Solar, Windfarms, Bio-Fuels and Nuclear won't make the problem go away. They will however help.

Now here is a question for you. All of us know that the oil supply is finite. It may not run out in our lifetime or even our grandchildrens time but eventually it will run out. What do we do then? What do we use to replace it?

Cat
 
"...Now here is a question for you. All of us know that the oil supply is finite. It may not run out in our lifetime or even our grandchildrens time but eventually it will run out. What do we do then? What do we use to replace it?..."

Cat

Glad you asked, Cat, but you will not appreciate my answer.

The free and open market place functioning on a profit motive has shown itself to be the most productive means to discover and utilize new ideas and innovations.

I posted something on this forum perhaps a year ago about a discovery of an energy producing substance on the surface of the moon. It is apparently created by billions of years of solar radiation that transformed a common mineral to a power source. My reference was that it could be transported from the moon to the earth on a profit making basis and would provide an endless source of energy.

Get government and do-gooders out of the way and let the free and unfettered mind of man tackle the problem. I guarantee success.

Amicus...
 
[QUOTE=voluptuary_manque;26922060]There are many clean ways to generate power but conservation (that is to say using stingy appliances and alternate light bulbs) is a lot cheaper than building any of them. In time we will have to come up with something better than we have now. I personally disagree with your assessment of geothermal power come the day we can drill to hot dry rock! Mama Earth isn't going to cool down for a very long time. Unfortunately that technology is too "industrial" for the Greenies so it isn't getting any funding.



~~~

I fully agree that conserving ones resources is a wise and practical way to live, as long as it not forced upon you.

Being a bit of a rebel, I was quick to confront local authorities who placed a ban on christmas lights, I went out and bought 2500 lights and fired them up. My damned electric bill, I will use what I choose, not them.

One of my first science fiction stories, sighs, seems like a hundred years ago, the entire city was powered by water turned to steam by geothermal heat in pipes and holes drilled into the earth's crust. It perhaps is not as practical as my fictional story, but I still think it could be a partial solution.

It has been known for a very long time that fossil fuels would one day either run out or become to expensive to use. Nuclear power was seen as the solution, but politics got in the way and now we really do have a problem to deal with.

There is enough coal in the US to supply electricity for the next several hundred years and I imagine the coal miner's union and their political backers will move in that direction.

I wish this government were smart enough to turn the energy problem over to the experts, the energy companies that started on the ground floor a hundred years ago.

Amicus...[/QUOTE]

I presume you are referring to folks such as Standard Oil and Enron and Shell and others like them. First, they are some of the biggest corporate plunderers in the world and, second, they are making zillions of dollars with the status quo, so why should they do anything to disrupt that. I don't have a solution, by the way, but I do see some problems in yours. :(

ETA: This "energy producing substance" you speak of: Is this the subject of one of your science fiction stories?
 
Cat

Glad you asked, Cat, but you will not appreciate my answer.

The free and open market place functioning on a profit motive has shown itself to be the most productive means to discover and utilize new ideas and innovations.

I posted something on this forum perhaps a year ago about a discovery of an energy producing substance on the surface of the moon. It is apparently created by billions of years of solar radiation that transformed a common mineral to a power source. My reference was that it could be transported from the moon to the earth on a profit making basis and would provide an endless source of energy.

Get government and do-gooders out of the way and let the free and unfettered mind of man tackle the problem. I guarantee success.

Amicus...

Now why in the world would I not like your answer? I have no problem with free enterprise, nor do I have a problem with someone making a profit from what they have worked hard to create.

As for your energy producing substance. I honestly don't remember it. Do you remember where you found the information? I would like to see/read it. (Although I can already see some of the problems with it, namely which corporation would be willing to invest the money needed to get to the moon, get the material and carry it back?)

Cat
 
[/I]


~~~

I fully agree that conserving ones resources is a wise and practical way to live, as long as it not forced upon you.

Being a bit of a rebel, I was quick to confront local authorities who placed a ban on christmas lights, I went out and bought 2500 lights and fired them up. My damned electric bill, I will use what I choose, not them.

One of my first science fiction stories, sighs, seems like a hundred years ago, the entire city was powered by water turned to steam by geothermal heat in pipes and holes drilled into the earth's crust. It perhaps is not as practical as my fictional story, but I still think it could be a partial solution.

It has been known for a very long time that fossil fuels would one day either run out or become to expensive to use. Nuclear power was seen as the solution, but politics got in the way and now we really do have a problem to deal with.

There is enough coal in the US to supply electricity for the next several hundred years and I imagine the coal miner's union and their political backers will move in that direction.

I wish this government were smart enough to turn the energy problem over to the experts, the energy companies that started on the ground floor a hundred years ago.

Amicus...

I presume you are referring to folks such as Standard Oil and Enron and Shell and others like them. First, they are some of the biggest corporate plunderers in the world and, second, they are making zillions of dollars with the status quo, so why should they do anything to disrupt that. I don't have a solution, by the way, but I do see some problems in yours. :(

ETA: This "energy producing substance" you speak of: Is this the subject of one of your science fiction stories?
[/QUOTE]

Box, Seacat, I am not adept at searching old threads, perhaps someone can locate it, but this was the meat of the thread: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=201211

It has to do with helium 3, it was news to me at the time, but if you search around you can discover what ever you wish to know, including feasibilty studies.

Box, take your damned head out of the propaganda sand and take a closer actuarial look at the three companies you mentioned.

There is a natural gas exploration project, called "Project Independence" I think, that I saw on one of the science or discovery channels a while back, that just knocked my socks off.

Energy companies drilling the deepest ever offshore natural gas well. A system that ties together 17 different wells, piped to a central control location and then piped 135 miles to a refinery on the Gulf Coast.

This is a project that has taken years and billions and billions of investment capital before it will produce a penny of profit. I has employed thousands from all over the world and the production will heat five million homes.

If you take a close look at the books of the five major oil companies, as did both the Senate and House with special committees, you will find that their average profit each year is just that, average, neither high nor low as compared to other business and industrial enterprise.

In addition, the amount of income they reinvest in research and development and new projects, ranks among the highest in the world of any industry anywhere.

So blow your bullshit with all the rest, but know that you are passing on faulty and bad information and I suspect, out right lies, perhaps due to ignorance but still, false information.

Why do you hate the free market so much?

Amicus...
 
Box, Seacat, I am not adept at searching old threads, perhaps someone can locate it, but this was the meat of the thread: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=201211

It has to do with helium 3, it was news to me at the time, but if you search around you can discover what ever you wish to know, including feasibilty studies.

Box, take your damned head out of the propaganda sand and take a closer actuarial look at the three companies you mentioned.

There is a natural gas exploration project, called "Project Independence" I think, that I saw on one of the science or discovery channels a while back, that just knocked my socks off.

Energy companies drilling the deepest ever offshore natural gas well. A system that ties together 17 different wells, piped to a central control location and then piped 135 miles to a refinery on the Gulf Coast.

This is a project that has taken years and billions and billions of investment capital before it will produce a penny of profit. I has employed thousands from all over the world and the production will heat five million homes.

If you take a close look at the books of the five major oil companies, as did both the Senate and House with special committees, you will find that their average profit each year is just that, average, neither high nor low as compared to other business and industrial enterprise.

In addition, the amount of income they reinvest in research and development and new projects, ranks among the highest in the world of any industry anywhere.

So blow your bullshit with all the rest, but know that you are passing on faulty and bad information and I suspect, out right lies, perhaps due to ignorance but still, false information.

Why do you hate the free market so much?

Amicus...[/QUOTE]

I am as fond of the free market as you are, and just as big a defender. However, there are some things you are overlooking. I hope you are aware that the execs at Enron declared bankruptcy after ripping off everything they could get from their employees and investors. Some of them were even convicted of it. :mad:

Big Oil is reporting record profits, and that is even after expensing their research.
 
Enron was corrupt. There is corruption everywhere, in government at the federal state and local level, corruption and dishonesty and fraud anywhere humans are involved, more so in a closed, dictatorial society such as the Soviet Union which was rotten to the core.

Men and women are not perfect, I do not expect perfection in their endeavors, do you?

I am an advocate of individual human freedom. The free market place extends those basic rights into the affairs of men and for the most part, functions well to supply the demands and needs of the common man.

Even the most ardent left wingers here realize the efficacy of the open free market, they just want to control and tweak it for their own, often nefarious means.

Amicus...
 
Box, Seacat, I am not adept at searching old threads, perhaps someone can locate it, but this was the meat of the thread: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=201211

It has to do with helium 3, it was news to me at the time, but if you search around you can discover what ever you wish to know, including feasibilty studies.

Box, take your damned head out of the propaganda sand and take a closer actuarial look at the three companies you mentioned.

There is a natural gas exploration project, called "Project Independence" I think, that I saw on one of the science or discovery channels a while back, that just knocked my socks off.

Energy companies drilling the deepest ever offshore natural gas well. A system that ties together 17 different wells, piped to a central control location and then piped 135 miles to a refinery on the Gulf Coast.

This is a project that has taken years and billions and billions of investment capital before it will produce a penny of profit. I has employed thousands from all over the world and the production will heat five million homes.

If you take a close look at the books of the five major oil companies, as did both the Senate and House with special committees, you will find that their average profit each year is just that, average, neither high nor low as compared to other business and industrial enterprise.

In addition, the amount of income they reinvest in research and development and new projects, ranks among the highest in the world of any industry anywhere.

So blow your bullshit with all the rest, but know that you are passing on faulty and bad information and I suspect, out right lies, perhaps due to ignorance but still, false information.

Why do you hate the free market so much?

Amicus...[/QUOTE]

Amicus,

Thanks for the info, I'll head off in a bit and check out the Helium 3. I'll also look into the "Project Independance" as well.

Cat
 
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