the new Conservatives

Colleen Thomas

Ultrafemme
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I think this little piece has some particular relevance, given the national schism. It puts in words a good deal of what I personally hold as my philosophy. It's alittle condescending towards old school conservatism, but it does, point out a lot of the things old school conservatives now face with uncertainty.







President Bush (news - web sites)'s inaugural address wasn't the only important speech given in Washington this winter. The other one, delivered by Karl Rove at this month's annual Conservative Political Action Committee convention, drew scant attention -- but may be of equal significance.

Rove has long thought of himself as a political philosopher as much as a political consultant. And in his remarks the other day, the new White House chief of staff for policy argued that the new conservatism was a broad movement and not, like the conservatism of old, a narrow opposition to the prevailing liberalism of the time; forward-looking and not, like the conservatism of old, reactionary.


This tells us many vital things, among them: Today's conservatism thinks of itself as a creed of and for the common man, not as the creed merely of uncommon common sense. It thinks of itself as being on the offensive, not on the defensive. Today's conservatism operates as a mass movement of doers, not as an elite slice of thinkers. Most of all, the second movement of the conservative movement no longer defines itself as the reverse of liberalism.


Indeed, liberalism's crisis today is that it is in the awkward and completely unfamiliar position of defining itself as the opposition of this new conservatism: against President Bush's muscular foreign policy of pre-emption, against the president's determination to make his tax cuts permanent, against the White House's drive to create private investment accounts as a part of, and perhaps ultimately to replace, Social Security (news - web sites).


The new world order isn't like the old conservatism of Robert A. Taft, Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan (news - web sites). They were men who, despite their high elective office, thought of themselves at the periphery of politics, struggling for the chance to prove that they could be mainstream. Of them, only Reagan prevailed, and when he left Washington in 1989 he was not fully sure that he had won more than a battle, not quite the war. George W. Bush will feel no such hesitation in 2009, or so he and Rove believe.


Why is this important? Because it affects not merely the content of conservatism but also the conduct of conservatives. Because it provides hints of the nature of politics that the new conservatives will prosecute. And because it adumbrates the style of politics that will be practiced in the nation in the Bush years.


When conservatives believe, as Rove put it in his speech, that "conservatism is the dominant political creed in America," they are likely to feel as liberals did in the 1960s and 1970s: that they are on the right side of history and that their opponents are hopelessly in the thrall of a discredited ideology. This is why Democrats are so dispirited in the capital today, and why so many of them do have such a deep sense of hopelessness. In American politics, only one ideology can be confident at once.


But for all this conservative confidence, not all conservatives are confident. This apparent contradiction grows out of what may be contradictions within the conservative movement itself. Think of it as the flaring of the subconscious of conservatism. For the old conservatives aren't so sure -- of lots of things.


They're not so sure, to start, that conservatism truly has prevailed. Like Sen. John F. Kerry (news, bio, voting record), who argues from a different vantage point and a different motivation, they say that a switch of a few tens of thousands of votes in Taft's old state of Ohio would have transformed this confident crowd of conservatives into hand-wringers, full of second thoughts about Bush, the war in Iraq (news - web sites) and big-time deficits.


They're not so sure that Bush, for all his talk of conservatism, has the temperament of a conservative. In Iraq, on taxes, on Social Security, the president seems to them to be more a risk-taker, a high-roller, than a conservative. Some of his colleagues on the right aren't sure, moreover, that the president is in the right. They're especially troubled about the Social Security gambit; conservatives, after all, are supposed to like social stability, not social upheaval, and the prospect of unhappy poor and older people is unsettling to a creed that finds comfort in social contentment.


But it isn't only the instability, which the new conservatives seem to court so assiduously, that troubles conservatives of yore. Rove's vision of conservatism as a forward-looking creed may be great rhetoric, but in truth conservatism has been rooted in the past, sometimes, as in the time of Edmund Burke, even as a struggle against modernity, and it has said so not with reluctance but with pride.


The old conservatives, after all, looked to the past, not only for precedents but also because it provided lessons in human behavior and social organization. They were drenched in respect for the culture and were determined not to disrupt it. They were careful, respectful, formal, above all aware of the difficulty of life and political strife.


The new conservatives don't possess these sensibilities. Look at the differences: The new conservatives think all things are possible. The old conservatives think all things are difficult. The new conservatives plunge ahead. The old conservatives act with prudence. These are different beings altogether.


Right now the new conservatives are on the ascendancy, and the new conservatism is in control -- in the White House, in the House, in the Senate. They are, as Rove posits, a broad movement, self-assured, optimistic.


This is a new posture and profile for conservatism, unlike that of anything Americans witnessed in the last century, when the conservatism of Coolidge, Hoover, Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan was apologetic rather than apostolic.


If nothing else, these new conservatives, heirs to an ideology that believed political truths were rooted in the old verities, are themselves living a radical departure from their own creed. They, unlike any conservatives before them, believe there is something new under the sun.
 
I wish people would get it straight.

Bush and company are not conservatives. They are revolutionaries. Marxist revolutionaries. They believe that economics completely trumps any other method of dealing with the world and must be followed to it's logical destination. They believe as fully in economic determinism as full as the Soviets.

And the nation they will create will vanish into history like Soviet Russia. It will be unable to adapt to the changes in the world because they will not be receptive to new ideas and will be unable to implement those required to adapt. They will create a class laden society where social mobility will be a dead as under the Czars. The economy will be drained to create a gigantic war machine that is considerably less useful and powerful than it appears.

And most of the benefits of the 'New Society' will accrue to those close to the centre of power while the rest scrabble for existence.

'Conservatives' indeed. Insert smiley for spitting in anger here.
 
And another thing.

Edmund Burke was not a conservative!.

By the standards of the time he was a flaming radical.

He opposed slavery. Supported the American Revolution.

Here's a good idea of where he stood.

Freedom is not solitary, unconnected, individual, selfish Liberty. As if every Man was to regulate the whole of the Conduct with his own will. The Liberty I mean is social freedom. It is that state of things in which Liberty is secured by the equality of Restraint… This kind of Liberty is indeed but another name for Justice… but whenever a separation is made between Liberty and Justice, neither is, in my opinion, safe.

If Burke met Bush, the former would probably try to kick the latter in the balls.
 
Colleen Thomas said:
Indeed, liberalism's crisis today is that it is in the awkward and completely unfamiliar position of defining itself as the opposition of this new conservatism: against President Bush's muscular foreign policy of pre-emption, against the president's determination to make his tax cuts permanent, against the White House's drive to create private investment accounts as a part of, and perhaps ultimately to replace, Social Security (news - web sites).

I would disagree with the use of the phrase "tax cuts." Bush cut TAX RATES, not taxes. If tax rates are above optimum rate, cutting tax rates will INCREASE the AMOUNT of taxes collected, not cut the AMOUNT of taxes collected.

The following U.S. Census Bureau data will show that Bush's TAX RATE cuts are collecting more tax dollars. Also, the AMOUNT of taxes collected is accelerating on a quarter by quarter basis. The reason behind the increase in AMOUNT of taxes collected is that people who work and pay taxes will work harder and make more money if the government takes less of the money they earn. John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush understood/understand the above basic principle of economics. Liberal, alas, do not. :rolleyes:

U.S. Census Bureau data
______________Individual
______________income__Totals____Totals
Quarters_______(Millions)_(Millions)_(PerCent)
Proj 4th Quarter $57,179 $224,586 114%
2004 3rd Quarter $51,593 $162,462 112%
2004 2nd Quarter $61,473 $110,869 110%
2004 1st Quarter $49,396 $49,396 107%

2003 4th Quarter $50,157 $197,005 106%
2003 3rd Quarter $48,190 $146,848 105%
2003 2nd Quarter $53,802 $98,658 96%
2003 1st Quarter $44,856 $44,856 98%

2002 4th Quarter $47,196 $194,926
2002 3rd Quarter $45,949 $147,730
2002 2nd Quarter $55,796 $101,781
2002 1st Quarter $45,985 $45,985

P.S. Apologies, my spreadsheet data did not line up all that well.)
 
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Uhm Richard. Then why is the debt exploding?

Also most of the tax cuts are not going to people who work. The payroll tax, which is what most people pay, had not been touched.

It is the income taxes and the estate tax, which mostly affect the wealthy, which have been cut.
 
rgraham666 said:
Uhm Richard. Then why is the debt exploding?

Also most of the tax cuts are not going to people who work. The payroll tax, which is what most people pay, had not been touched.

It is the income taxes and the estate tax, which mostly affect the wealthy, which have been cut.

RG: debt is exploding because Congress is increasing spending faster than tax revenues are rising.

I do not work for wages, thus I cannot directly comment on payroll tax. However, it is my understanding that payroll tax rates have been decreased due to the Bush tax RATE cuts. The "payroll tax" is income tax for at least the vast majority of wage earners.

If you use the definition of "wealthy" as "anyone who has more money that me," perhaps. However a lot of people who have started businesses and grown them, including hiring workers, are dying and their heirs have to sell the businesses in order to pay the death taxes. This last is not good for the businesses or for the workers who may suddenly find themselves unemployed.
 
R. Richard said:
RG: debt is exploding because Congress is increasing spending faster than tax revenues are rising.


IIRC, Congress spent less than Bush proposed in most if not all years of his administration so far. Our (republican controlled) Congress is certainly spending like a drunken sailor, but to their credit they're spending less than the other drunken sailor.


I should insert a qualifier here - I'm quite drugged at the moment which means I currently have a terrible fear that I'll log on in the morning and nothing I've typed will make a lick of sense. Please believe that it at least makes sense to my addled brain at the moment. :rolleyes: :D
 
R. Richard said:
RG: debt is exploding because Congress is increasing spending faster than tax revenues are rising.

I do not work for wages, thus I cannot directly comment on payroll tax. However, it is my understanding that payroll tax rates have been decreased due to the Bush tax RATE cuts. The "payroll tax" is income tax for at least the vast majority of wage earners.

If you use the definition of "wealthy" as "anyone who has more money that me," perhaps. However a lot of people who have started businesses and grown them, including hiring workers, are dying and their heirs have to sell the businesses in order to pay the death taxes. This last is not good for the businesses or for the workers who may suddenly find themselves unemployed.

Maybe I do regard 'wealthy' as anyone who makes more money than me. Which makes just about every richer than me as I'm on a disability of $655 a month, Canadian.

But so far as I know, there have been no changes to the Payroll Tax. As I understand Income Tax doesn't become a significant drain until your income tops $70,000. Which is about $20,000 above the median income in America.

And the estate tax didn't kick in until your estate was above $700,000. Which is affects very few people.

What gets up my nose is what people want. We want police to protect us. We want clean water. We want good roads. We want a strong military. We want a good intelligence system. We want, we want, we want. But when asked to pay for it, the response is "not me, I want all my money."

A society costs. It can cost money now. Or blood and pain later. I prefer money. I'm allergic to pain.
 
I can't argue taxes or debt -- frankly, because I have a mental block to anything to do with money -- but this "new conservatism" and the "optimism and confidence" behind it is just fucking CREEPY. It is NOT democracy as I know and love it. It is manipulative, brain-washing, holier-than-thou sheep herding (where that works) and bullying (where it doesn't). Makes me sick to my stomach.
 
I suspect that's why I react so strongly to them, imp.

Had a lot of trouble with bullies growing up. Learned to loathe the sadistic cowards.

I'll tell you this much about taxes though. I got my first job in a decade last year. That felt good. When my first paycheque arrived and I saw the taxes taken off it, I felt even better. I felt for the first time in a long time as if I was contributing to my country rather than leeching off it.

Pity the same old, same old drove me away from the working world again.
 
rgraham666 said:
I felt for the first time in a long time as if I was contributing to my country rather than leeching off it.

It has been said that people with disabilities are the only people who actually WANT to pay taxes. (Not sure I agree with that, but I understand the sentiment behind it.)

:rose:
 
impressive said:
It has been said that people with disabilities are the only people who actually WANT to pay taxes. (Not sure I agree with that, but I understand the sentiment behind it.)

:rose:

That's true in my case. I learned how dependent I was on the supports that only a government can offer.

So when I can, I don't mind paying. There are other people out there who need help.

When the person said "We hang together or hang separately" he wasn't just talking about the Revolutionary War.
 
I still see Bush's conservatism as a Trojan Horse.

Or maybe it's more like a Tootsie pop in which a palatable sugar shell of populism and grandstand war-mongering covers a sticky brown center of increased power and tax breaks for the wealthy elite.

I suppose his economic policies are great if you're a small businessman or an entrepeneur, but most of the people I know are neither, and we're hurting.

--dr.M.
 
New Conservatism and Old Fascism have a lot in common. Basically there isn't one word in that Rove speech that even sounds accurate as to what he REALLY does. He makes it sound glowing, so as to seem inclusive and all it really is another way to grab power. In order for their agenda to work they have to get people to vote for them who cannot possibly benefit from their ideas. If the only people who could benefit from their policies were the only ones to vote for them, they couldn't get elected. So few people actually benefit from the new conservative agenda that it would hardly be enough to get them on the ballot in most states. Any American who doesn't own a business or make a minimum of $200,000 a year does not benefit from this neo-con administrations policies. To think otherwise shows how much you've been fooled by these evil bastards. The new conservatives are by the rich and for the rich. If you're not rich and you vote for them and their agenda, they still see you as a slave. You're just the house slave. As Bush himself said, his base is the Have's and the Have More's.

As far as payroll taxes are concerned, they haven't decreased, even though Bush says they have. The taxes are roughly the same, but the average wage has dropped. He talks about new jobs, but what he is missing is that these new jobs are being filled by people who lost their old jobs due to his incompetence and greed for his corporate masters, and they are making considerably less money than they were. What else would you really expect from someone who wants to classify flipping hamburgers as a manufacturing job so that he can pad his numbers?

One of the guys who supported Bush where I worked came up and tried to prove to me on his paycheck where he really is making more money since Bush got elected. He was so proud of the extra two dollars a week in his check. Until I pointed out that it was only because he received a raise for getting his time in. Our boss, on the other hand, got a huge bonus as soon as they outsourced half of our work to China. To be fair, though, he got fired a year later when the China move cost the company several million dollars. (Of course, his severance pay was massive, so it wasn't much of a punishment.) The production costs dropped, but with shipping, the savings were neglible. Then add to that the fact that everything the Chinese made for us was junk and our customers refused to buy it. A few years later and every single piece of that Chinese ware is still sitting in a warehouse gathering dust. That, in a nutshell, is how the neo-con agenda really works. All hail the ownership class, you fucking peasants!
 
Boota said:
That, in a nutshell, is how the neo-con agenda really works. All hail the ownership class, you fucking peasants!

Boota...

I think I love you. :catroar:
 
Man, the new conservatives really seem to hate conservatism. It's like conservatism kicked its dog or something and it never really forgave it for that. Of coursee it hates liberalism too, but I think that's because it kept totally using its room in college for doing its girlfriend or smoking a toke.

But with how bullying it is, it's easy to see why new conservatism always seems to have far more enemies than friends.
 
AS a conservative, this new brand of conservatism is not comprehensible to me as conservative thought. It seems a blend of liberal methodolgy and Jingoistic doctrine.

I favor a strong militray, not only for defense, but for the effect it has on the economy, via the military-industrial complex. While I favor a strong military, I don't favor using it willy nilly. There is nothing conservative about waging a war. It's expensive, in terms of both money and lives of men. The military option should be a court of last resort, the mailed fist within the velvet glove so to speak.

I favor fiscal responsibility. That particular tenet of conservative thought seems alien to these guys.

Above all, as a conservative thinker, I don't favor change for the sake of change. Faith based government is a radical change, one I have no tolerance for. Curtailing our freedoms, to protect our freedoms, sounds suspiciously facist to me. Reacting favorably to the interests of big bussiness is one thing, bending over & giving it up to them is something quite different.

A lot of conservatives, myself included, find ourselves at odds with the new goals of the party we have long considered ours.

Perhaps, the most awful thing the new conservatives are doing is attempting social engineering. That has long been the province of liberals, trying to build a utopian society. While I don't like the liberal plan, this sudden attempt to return us to the early 20th or late 19th century is distrubing in the extreme. Those weren't the good old days, at least not in anyone's mind who has a sense of history.

I posted the commentary, simply because it shows there is a split between conservative thought and the grand progrom of these new conservatives. Just because I am not a liberal or a democrat, does not mean I buy any or all of these new ideas. In fact, as a conservative, I tend to shy from new ideas without concrete proof they are for the better.

At this point in time, when the country seems split down the middle ieologically, it might be good for liberals to realize you aren't facing a united front. The new conservatism isn't monolithic, it's very fractured. However, lumping us all together as "ignorant rednecks" is more likely to give you that united front than any other action you can take. No one likes to be called dumb and no one likes to have thier concerns belittled.

There are still old school conservatives out there. We have major problems with the powers that be at the moment. there is unlikely to be significant protest however, if the trend continues of making everyone face the choice of toeing the party line or taking abuse that is unwarranted from both sides if we try to avoid moving in lock step.
 
Colleen Thomas said:
AS a conservative, this new brand of conservatism is not comprehensible to me as conservative thought. It seems a blend of liberal methodolgy and Jingoistic doctrine.

I favor a strong militray, not only for defense, but for the effect it has on the economy, via the military-industrial complex. While I favor a strong military, I don't favor using it willy nilly. There is nothing conservative about waging a war. It's expensive, in terms of both money and lives of men. The military option should be a court of last resort, the mailed fist within the velvet glove so to speak.

I favor fiscal responsibility. That particular tenet of conservative thought seems alien to these guys.

Above all, as a conservative thinker, I don't favor change for the sake of change. Faith based government is a radical change, one I have no tolerance for. Curtailing our freedoms, to protect our freedoms, sounds suspiciously facist to me. Reacting favorably to the interests of big bussiness is one thing, bending over & giving it up to them is something quite different.

A lot of conservatives, myself included, find ourselves at odds with the new goals of the party we have long considered ours.

Perhaps, the most awful thing the new conservatives are doing is attempting social engineering. That has long been the province of liberals, trying to build a utopian society. While I don't like the liberal plan, this sudden attempt to return us to the early 20th or late 19th century is distrubing in the extreme. Those weren't the good old days, at least not in anyone's mind who has a sense of history.

I posted the commentary, simply because it shows there is a split between conservative thought and the grand progrom of these new conservatives. Just because I am not a liberal or a democrat, does not mean I buy any or all of these new ideas. In fact, as a conservative, I tend to shy from new ideas without concrete proof they are for the better.

At this point in time, when the country seems split down the middle ieologically, it might be good for liberals to realize you aren't facing a united front. The new conservatism isn't monolithic, it's very fractured. However, lumping us all together as "ignorant rednecks" is more likely to give you that united front than any other action you can take. No one likes to be called dumb and no one likes to have thier concerns belittled.

There are still old school conservatives out there. We have major problems with the powers that be at the moment. there is unlikely to be significant protest however, if the trend continues of making everyone face the choice of toeing the party line or taking abuse that is unwarranted from both sides if we try to avoid moving in lock step.

<raise beer glass> Hear Hear.

Now seriously, did you guys kick new conservative's dog. We won't tell, we promise.
 
Lucifer_Carroll said:
<raise beer glass> Hear Hear.

Now seriously, did you guys kick new conservative's dog. We won't tell, we promise.


Wasn't me, I love dogs :)

I get the feeling the new conservatives just co-opted enough conservative doctrine to give themselves a name. The theocratic party wouldn't play to well i don't think. Nor the neo-fascist. Whatever they are, it bears little resemblence to conservatism as I know it.
 
Yay Boota,

Boota pretty much nailed it. The 'new conservatism' is actually--excuse the rhetoric--akin to fascism. It's an authoritarian mode of capitalism in crisis (surviving through 'war' spending). Colly has clearly seen this. There are new restrictions on everything from 'bad words' on TV to travel, and new invasions of privacy in library usage, etc. This is potentially despotic.

As several have pointed out, the 'genius,' as with the National Socialists, is to convince the common 'man' or person that it's mostly in his or her interest--e.g., the tax cuts. EVEN where there are real cuts, the person is going to see his kids school deteriorate, for instance.

Further, where this 'common person' is hurt, she or he is encouraged (whipped up) to view it as glorious sacrifice; a notable contribution to the historic cause of the country ('bringing freedom to Iraq and the midEast'). For the Nazis, I believe the slogans were 'blood and soil', etc. Kinder Kirche Kuche.

If Americans continue NOT to see where they're headed, then history will take care of the problem, as with the Germans--persons will see lots of poverty, destruction, and killing engulfing them.

Incidentally, the spending of the neo-cons is not some inept deviation from 'conservatism' or 'responsibility'; it is not an 'oversight' caused by enthusiasm of war. It is planned and its consequences are foreseen.
Hence pointing it out to the true 'neocon' is without effect.
 
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Colleen Thomas said:
Wasn't me, I love dogs :)

I get the feeling the new conservatives just co-opted enough conservative doctrine to give themselves a name. The theocratic party wouldn't play to well i don't think. Nor the neo-fascist. Whatever they are, it bears little resemblence to conservatism as I know it.

I can just see the personal ad they used:

NFT seeking young vivacious party for good times. Enjoys marches on the beach, fine dining, and the creation of a utopian Christian Empire. Serious inquiries only.
 
A lot of conservative Republicans are at war within their own party, as Colly pointed out. They are extremely disenchanted with their ideals being co-opted by the fascist element of their party. Christine Todd Whitman just put out a book focusing on the frustration of the moderate Conservative in the Republican party. They're being pushed out of their own party and they aren't happy about it. Of course, she's being attacked as un-American by the neo-cons now.

From some of the things I post on here I may be tagged by some of you as a Liberal, but I have probably about as many conservative opinions as liberal ones. Anyone who claims to be 100% liberal or 100% conservative is an unreasonable person and you can essentially disregard anything they say as propaganda for their ideology. American politics has to move back to the center if we have any hope. Moderates are the only ones who can save us.
 
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