The Netherlands and Turkey

[oggbashan]

The Netherlands are voting over the next day or so for a new government. Like most Dutch governments it will have to be a coalition because no one party wins enough votes to have a majority.

The anti-immigrant anti-EU party is performing strongly.

Turkey is holding a referendum on giving their President Erdogan more powers, almost making him a dictator. There are massive numbers of Turks in Europe particularly in Germany and the Netherlands, and those Turks even if holders of dual citizenship are eligible to vote in that referendum. The Turks wanted to hold political rallies in Germany and the Netherlands. That was dubious but they wanted to send ministers to address the rallies.

The Dutch objected particularly as the rallies cut across their own elections and since anti-immigrant parties are performing strongly they didn't want major political rallies of Turks. The Dutch refused visas to two Turkish ministers.

President Erdogan's response has been to accuse the Dutch, first of all of being Facists and Nazi collaborators, and recently of causing the genocide of Muslims at Srebrenica when Dutch UN forces (under UN command) were unable to stop the massacre by Bosnian Serbs.

The Netherlands are very sensitive about that massacre. They didn't have the firepower nor the terms of engagement to resist those who committed the genocide. It is a recurring problem with UN forces. Usually they are only allowed to open fire if they themselves are threatened.

The Dutch government's response has been measured disbelief. President Erdogan's verbal attacks on the Dutch are almost unprecedented against a NATO ally.

What effect will it have on the Dutch elections? Some commentators think that the major party will attract votes from the ethnic community for their inclusiveness. Others think it strengthens the cause of the anti-immigrant party.

http://time.com/4700655/turkey-erdogan-dutch-rutte-wilders/

 

[phrodeau]

Several Twitter accounts were hacked by Nazis in the night.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...d-worldwide/5KaBMS4IF7OEOQwNUooZaN/story.html

https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_960w/Boston/2011-2020/2017/03/15/BostonGlobe.com/Business/Images/amnesty_720.jpg

 

[Hard_Rom]

The other mainstream parties have said they will not work with the anti-immigrant anti-EU party, so I'm not overly worried they can form a government. Also holding onto the idea that the Dutch are quite pragmatic and one of the early European enlightened democracies.

The Turkish President is likely a RW authoritarian. They don't like to radical of religious groups that don't serve their purposes. So radical Islam groups like ISIS gaining influence in Turkey is not high on my worry list. Him retaliating against Europe by letting streams of immigrants cross Turkey freely into Europe may cause issues.

Some of the old eastern bloc countries like Romania are suffering from emigration of their youth. A mass influx of immigrants could help them out. Although eastern bloc countries tend to lag behind the west in social matters due to the old soviet system. They are a generation behind in such things as inclusiveness.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Good thing they don't share a border.

 

[OMG7Jensen]

Some of the old eastern bloc countries like Romania are suffering from emigration of their youth. A mass influx of immigrants could help them out. Although eastern bloc countries tend to lag behind the west in social matters due to the old soviet system. They are a generation behind in such things as inclusiveness.

Mm I partially agree with you but there are some things I would like to point out:
- pretty much all of these countries are suffering from that (not some of them only)
- they are pretty bad at inclusiveness and the old Soviet system is one of the reasons for that but it is also that they just do not have enough money in order to take large amounts of refugees like Sweden or Germany do. It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem (which comes first - less money or less inclusiveness).

But I believe things there will change for the better within a generation or two. If you look at their economical data, all of them have improved a lot since entering the EU.

Otherwise, I agree with the comments, Erdo is a RW authoritarian leader (soon to be a dictator if the referendum goes his way). Not the most typical one and some of the things he does are more typical for a Middle Eastern dictator than for a Trump-like right-wing politician (RW heads of state at least put some efforts to keep the national economy living, which cannot be said of him, just check how their currency has been dropping since he came into power) but yep. Overall, a sad story.

 

[srgreene]

The other mainstream parties have said they will not work with the anti-immigrant anti-EU party, so I'm not overly worried they can form a government. Also holding onto the idea that the Dutch are quite pragmatic and one of the early European enlightened democracies.

That's funny, I'm concerned that Geert Wilders and the PVV will not be able to form a government. If Europe is to have a future other than as Eurabia, it will be because people like Wilders prevail over those like Merkel and Rutte who would surrender centuries of European political and cultural tradition to savagery. The Netherlands needs to develop the spine to resist the likes of thugs like Erdogan, and not be so "measured" about it.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Status quo for the Dutch. Populist made gains but so did other top parties. Yay for the Dutch!

 

[oggbashan]

That's funny, I'm concerned that Geert Wilders and the PVV will not be able to form a government. If Europe is to have a future other than as Eurabia, it will be because people like Wilders prevail over those like Merkel and Rutte who would surrender centuries of European political and cultural tradition to savagery. The Netherlands needs to develop the spine to resist the likes of thugs like Erdogan, and not be so "measured" about it.

Both Merkel and Rutte have stood up to Erdogan and been attacked by him for their stand.

Wilders and many of his kind across Europe, have no sensible policies except anti immigrants and anti EU. Like Britain's UKIP, when asked what else they would do if in government - they don't know.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Hitler understood that most people are cowards and prefer slavery to risk. The critical mass of risk takers is always 1/3rd of the population because the risk talers resist slavery and tyranny.

Holland has been beneath the boot heel of all, and will likely become a Muslim eunuch.

 

[KingOrfeo]

If Europe is to have a future other than as Eurabia . . .

It will never be Eurabia.

 

[sr71plt]

It will never be Eurabia.

Oh, I wouldn't rule that out. Never is a long, long time. It's obviously what's motivating some of the immigration concern in Europe. I don't think it helps not to recognize it as a directional trend.

 

[srgreene]

It will never be Eurabia.

Why do you say that? Just like to roll your eyes?

Ref 1 below says, about the Muslim population in France,

"Over two decades, the French Muslim population is thus supposed to have increased by 25% according to the lowest estimations, by 50% according to median estimations, or even by 100% if one compares the INED and government figures of 1997 to those of 2014, from 3 million to almost 6 million. This is respectively almost two times, three times, or six times the French average population growth. ...

According to the first ethnic-related surveys released in early 2010, fully a fifth of French citizens or residents under twenty-four were Muslims."

The figures are so uncertain because France does not include religious affiliation in its census data. But even the lowest figure indicates your feel-good roll-eyes denial is nonsense. I can only wonder what your motive might be for spreading such disinformation.


Ref. 1: http://www.meforum.org/5909/quarter-of-french-teenagers-are-muslim

 

[Hard_Rom]

And the US will be known as Newer Mexico with the Hispanic birthrate so far ahead of the white non-Hispanics. The whole world appears to be turning brown.

There have been mass migrations of people through history. Its what humans do. If they didn't we would all still be in Africa.

You want folk to stay in their own countries. Assist in turning them into democratic liberal paradises. Not go in smash all the infrastructure turn out the government and then leave.

Long term plans are needed not short term stop gaps.

Liberalism is the philosophy for our time, because it does not try to conserve every tradition of the past, because it does not apply to new problems the old doctrinaire solutions, because it is prepared to experiment and innovate and because it knows that the past is less important than the future. P.E.T.

 

[srgreene]

There have been mass migrations of people through history. Its what humans do. If they didn't we would all still be in Africa....

You completely fail to address the concerns that civilized people might have about mass immigration of those imbued with a savage, 7th century supremacist ideology.

Well that's one way to address a problem- simply ignore it, and draw comforting, but vacuous perspectives. Yes, there was mass "immigration" of Moslems bent on jihad into India a millennium ago. Tens of millions of Indians died during that episode of jihad.

Quite frankly, the West is best, and there is something quite special about the Judeo Christian tradition (I say this as someone who is not, genetically anyway, "Western"). People like you are simply unwilling to appreciate that.

 

[oggbashan]

You completely fail to address the concerns that civilized people might have about mass immigration of those imbued with a savage, 7th century supremacist ideology.

Well that's one way to address a problem- simply ignore it, and draw comforting, but vacuous perspectives. Yes, there was mass "immigration" of Moslems bent on jihad into India a millennium ago. Tens of millions of Indians died during that episode of jihad.

Quite frankly, the West is best, and there is something quite special about the Judeo Christian tradition (I say this as someone who is not, genetically anyway, "Western"). People like you are simply unwilling to appreciate that.

Perhaps you ought to preach that to the Native Americans.