The most evil

[Boxlicker101]

I have to say that I believe that Muslims are the most evil persons in the world.

That's not to say that all Muslims are evil, because they aren't. It is not to say that only Muslims are evil because there are also evil Christians and evil Atheists, and any other kind of believer or non-believer but, if you could somehow quantify the levil of evil of everybody in the world, on a scale of one to 100, the average of Muslims would be higher than that of any other group.

I'm not only referring to Al Qaeda but I certainly include them. Partisans are one thing but these people are mostly just murdering their own countrymen and fellow-Muslims. Obviously I am referring to those who murdered the school children in Russia and I also am referring to the Taliban, the genocidal government of The Sudan, the Palestinian suicide bombers, the terrorists of Algeria, those who planted bombs in Indonesia, the murderous abductors in the Philippines, the hijackers of 9-11, the Iranian mullahs and many others.

I realize there are supposed Christians who murder doctors and blow up Planned Parenthood clinics but there are very few of them and they are encouraged by only a lunatic fringe. Average Muslims in the street encourage the terrorism of their co-religionists. Members of the Muslim clergy, not all but many, encourage such deeds also and even misquote the Koran to justify them.

You have probably heard of al Sadr, the Muslim clergyman who established a prison in one of the holiest places in Islam and sent his minions out to abduct persons who had displeased him. The victims were brought back so they could be tortured and murdered, thereby desecrating what should have been a holy shrine. What was done there was many times worse than anything that was done by Americans guarding criminal prisoners but you will hear virtually no outcry over it. He is still active and, probably, no harm will ever come to him for what he has done.

I have always heard of Islam described as being a faith of peace. That is nonsense. It has always been a faith of war, beginning from when Mohammed led an army from Medina to attack his home town of Mecca to force them to accept him as The Prophet. After that, his followers conquered most of the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, spreading the faith by blood and death. Even now, they would like nothing better than to kill off everybody who doesn't agree with them.

I am aware that Christianity was also spread by blood and death, throughout Central and South America but that's not the way it started. I'm also aware that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, such as the Salem witch trials, the various European pogroms and inquisitions, the thirty year' war and other historical events but this was hundreds of years ago. The evil deeds being done in the name of Islam are being done right now.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Evil is also those bastards who are viciously beheading hostages and using the internet as a tool for terrorism.

 

[gauchecritic]

...but this was hundreds of years ago. The evil deeds being done in the name of Islam are being done right now.

The difference being?

Being a whiteman in the 'Wild West' was no different. Being a Nazi in the 30/40s was no different. Dropping napalm or the atom bomb was no different.

To misquote Shakespeare: "There is no evil but that someone thinks it so."

Gauche

 

[Guest]

I know this is not nice of me, and I have disagreed with Box many times, but I really need to say that his post above is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on this forum. I also do not get the point other than personal expression or intent to incite (which I doubt).

I am not angry or disturbed, only truly amazed at the ignorance and stupidity required to write the above.

Perdita

 

[cantdog]

There's still time. Everyone has an us-them phase; you grow out of it. I hope he doesn't have too many such writings to live down when he does.

Box generally means well.

 

[Guest]

Box generally means well.

Aye, that's the rub.

Perdita

 

[rgraham666]

Human's are the most evil

There's only one dangerous animal. But most of the time you have to act as if he's as sweet and loving as a cobra. - Robert A. Heinlein

Box, evil isn't limited to Muslims. Every tribe, clan, race or whatever you use to categorize human beings is drenched to it's elbows in blood.

The worst villains in history had the best intentions. - Robert A. Heinlein

 

[McKenna]

I'm absolutely speechless, not in a good way.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think it a dangerous thing when we assign evil a face, nationality, religion, etc. It's not just that we run the risk of tarring innocent people with the reputation bought for them by others with whom they do not agree, although we will; it also makes us less likely to recognize evil in all of its other many guises. As C. S. Lewis points out in "The Screwtape Letters," all one has to do is to convince people that the Great Tempter is a figure in bright red underwear, an absurd goatee, and a pitchfork. The amusing thing, as the devil Screwtape tells his nephew, is that humans will then convince themselves that because they can't believe in *that*, they can't believe in *you*. Similarly, if we convince ourselves that evil is from the Middle East and espouses Islam, then we do ourselves a disservice as we look blithely past it when it appears in any other form.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

I think it a dangerous thing when we assign evil a face, nationality, religion, etc. It's not just that we run the risk of tarring innocent people with the reputation bought for them by others with whom they do not agree, although we will; it also makes us less likely to recognize evil in all of its other many guises. As C. S. Lewis points out in "The Screwtape Letters," all one has to do is to convince people that the Great Tempter is a figure in bright red underwear, an absurd goatee, and a pitchfork. The amusing thing, as the devil Screwtape tells his nephew, is that humans will then convince themselves that because they can't believe in *that*, they can't believe in *you*. Similarly, if we convince ourselves that evil is from the Middle East and espouses Islam, then we do ourselves a disservice as we look blithely past it when it appears in any other form.

Shanglan

Very well said!

I also think it's a very dangerous thing to attach the "evil" label to any group who are linked only by their faith, nationality and so on.

Call individuals, or individual acts evil, yes (as Abs did above), but not those millions of others who are just trying to live their lives as we are.

al Sadr isn't the Muslim faith, just as Tony Blair isn't Great Britain, George Bush isn't America and I can, and will, go as far as to state that Hitler wasn't Germany (although he was the Nazis).

We need to remember that 99.99% of the world's population are the same. We all have the same basic needs, drives and motivations.

Lou

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

“They have hijacked my religion.” — Yusuf Islam


The events of 11 September were the fruit of 'blind irreligious hatred': Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, explains why the attacks had nothing to do with Muslim beliefs


26 October 2001


My personal page in the history of Islam was added in 1977 (which corresponds to 1398 of the Hijri calendar), when news first broke that I had become a Muslim, 24 years before the world-shaking events of Tuesday 11 September 2001. Sadly for all of us, since then the world seems to have lost its balance: a violent group attacked innocent civilians, hijacked a religion and a large army is out hunting for their blood.

It seems that someone like me, having seen life from both sides – East and West – is appropriately placed to confront certain myths and to try to reduce the demonisation of a religion that is still appallingly misrepresented.

Like other Westerners, I was wary of approaching Islam. But after being given an English translation of the Koran in my late twenties, I discovered something different from the negative images portrayed. As well as belief in the one God of this universe, it was quite a revelation to find that the word Islam itself came from salam or "peace" – a notion light years away from the violence and destruction we have all seen in recent weeks.

Scanning the pages of the Koran, I was amazed how close Islam was to my religious upbringing as a child. Prayer and charity, paradise and angels were mentioned; the Gospel and Torah of Jesus and Moses respectively were referred to. Soon, the Koran was carrying me beyond home and customary landscapes to a new religious shore inhabited by people of whom I had always been told to be suspicious – Arabs and Muslims.

But, surprisingly, the Koran was full of stories and instruction from the history of mankind as a whole. It did not speak in favour of one special race against others. It said that although we may be from different countries and tribes, we are all human, born of the same original parents, Adam and Eve. The Koran says: "The best of people are the most God-conscious."

In 1977 I was listening, and quietly decided to embrace Islam. Since then, I have continued to be surprised by how little people know about a religion of more than a billion fellow humans. After the nightmare of 11 September and what has followed, it's vital that people understand more about Muslim beliefs – not just the views of the extremists.

Most newcomers to a faith go through an initially zealous phase – call it "born again" – followed by a period of measure and maturity. Muhammad Ali is a good example of that learning curve. I was no different. All I wanted was a happy, trouble-free life, which meant a change to my environment, as far away from the showbiz lights as possible. I stopped drinking but still continued to make records in the studio. Naturally, what the public didn't see was my spiritual growth, subtly softening the ragged edges of my character.

Meanwhile, I was still quietly learning about Islam. Married in 1979, within a few months I received the glad tidings: my wife was expecting. Unicef asked me to do a benefit concert for the Year of the Child – divinely timed by my reckoning.

Following that, I announced the end of my career as Cat Stevens and sold all my instruments, giving the proceeds to charity. Having assumed my new name – Yusuf (as in the story of Joseph, son of Jacob) Islam – I grew my beard slightly longer and donned long white clothes; an image which to the untrained eye looks shockingly similar to their idea of public enemy number one. This is another good reason why in-depth explanations about the meaning of Islam, beyond the shallow images, are desperately needed.

But at that time, and for years afterwards, I was too busy raising a family and establishing schools for Muslim children to stop and explain. I didn't realise how vital communication with the public was. At that time most of the media didn't seem very interested in my new life anyway; they were waiting for another sensational headline. That came ungraciously with the publication of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses.

Still a relatively new Muslim, but being a well-known personality, I was invited to join a letter campaign requesting the publishers of the controversial novel to think again. They ignored the plea.

Suddenly the media tried linking me to supporting the latest fatwa issued from Iran. The fact is that I never supported the fatwa. Such is the irony. You wouldn't ask a Christian to deny one of the Ten Commandments; equally, as a new Muslim, I couldn't deny that the Koran – just like Leviticus in the Bible – forbade blasphemy and stated that if there is no repentance, it is a capital offence.

But what most people – and that includes many Muslims – fail to recognise is that the Koran repeatedly calls on believers to repent, to uphold the rule of civility and not to take the law into their own hands. So clerics and extremists who call for the assassination of civilians outside the recognised bounds of the Islamic state without due process are wholly out of line with the limits and spirit of Islam. The Koran again states: "And do not let your hatred of some people cause you to transgress [the law]."

I released a statement clarifying my position, but the press preferred to ignore it – perhaps for them it didn't go far enough. I was still learning, ill-prepared and lacking in knowledge and confidence to speak out against forms of extremism. But time taught me to try to avoid making that same mistake again.

The Koran expressly declares: "If anyone kills a person, except (through due legal process) for murder or spreading discord on the earth, it will be as if he has killed the whole of humanity."

Today, I am aghast at the horror of recent events and feel it a duty to speak out. Not only did terrorists hijack planes and destroy life, they also hijacked the beautiful religion of Islam and split the brother-and-sisterhood of mankind, many of whom are still sorrowfully ignorant and unaware of each other. The targeting of unsuspecting civilians going about their daily work was energised by nothing but blind irreligious hatred. Yet we should remember that this kind of atrocity has been a common occurrence, year on year, in many lands. My personal experience of the prolonged suffering and death inflicted on Bosnia at the end of the last century is something that I will not easily forget.

However, it is also good to hear spiritual and political leaders across all countries and cultural divides making it clear that such acts of murder as witnessed in the US have nothing to do with the universal beliefs of Muslims; and it is important that retaliation does not become a representation of Christian wrath. What we need now is for the whole world to rally for justice for everybody, and not just revenge.

The Koran states: "Repel evil with what is better and he, between whom and you was hatred, will become as a warm bosom-friend."

So out of the shadows of death, positive signs were arising. Tragedies can sometimes help break down the barriers of prejudice. In Chicago, three days after the attack, non-Muslim neighbours – Christian and otherwise – held hands in a circle to form a human chain around a mosque in which Muslims were praying. That chain, in the form of humanitarian aid, should stretch to those innocent and blameless people of Afghanistan and all fellow human beings like them who are now being bombed and barely surviving on the knife-edge between life and death.

If humanity can be revived through honour and deeds of compassion and charity, it is hoped that the tragedies of the past will herald a new tomorrow. The struggle to teach universal spiritual values is always going to be an astronomical task, and it's one I've been involved in for many years, through the establishment of faith-based schools in Britain and elsewhere. I was delighted that, in 1997, the British government finally agreed to give our primary school in London state funding. Previously, such funding only went to schools for Christian and Jewish children. A multi-faith society is possible; an educated and tolerant world doesn't have to be a distant dream.

Changing global paradigms certainly isn't easy. For some years now, I have been working with others to produce a catalogue of educational and entertaining CDs, videos and books through my Mountain of Light company. Our hope is to dispel the myths that have hidden the true picture and beauty of Islam, and to introduce noble principles that are so lacking in our material world.

As well as new works, I have been involved in compiling collections of my songs as Cat Stevens and showing the link between my past and my present life. I felt that I still owed something to those loyal followers of my words and music. I have also decided that royalties from the new box-set release in the US will go to the WTC Fund, as well as helping orphans and homeless families in war-ravaged countries such as Afghanistan.

I belonged to that idealistic movement that grew up in the Sixties and Seventies with undiminished dreams and hopes for a more peaceful world. There are multitudes of people around the world who don't want more war and destruction. And I, as a Muslim, am still one of those.

Instead of talking about "them and us" we should avoid the dialogue of war, whether it comes from Al Qa'ida, the Pentagon or anywhere else. Such talk leaves no room for law-abiding conscientious objectors, humanitarian aid-workers or peacemakers – all of whom could unitedly remain faithfully anti-terrorist as well as anti-war.

The last prophet of God, Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally." He also prophesied times of tribulation and trials, saying: "The one sitting will be better than the one standing." Such words are urgently needed now to relight a lamp of clarity in these dark times, and to recognise the definition of that which makes a person representative or otherwise of the faith that all the noble prophets of God taught, and that I try to follow.

 

[amicus]

Boxlicker 101....

Thank you for expressing your views...I have stated elsewhere that in my opinion, the Muslim world declared war on Western Civilization sometime back.

I foresee a world conflict centering on the middle east with what is happening now just the prelude.

However one describes those left of center, 'they' proclaim a tolerance for all opinions and advocate a 'diversity' in all realms of society.

As you are seeing, that tolerance to differing opinions is a sham. Add that to the pasted Michael Moore piece....not only are they intolerant, they are openly dogmatic, secular and vehemently crass and vicious.

Hope you have a thick skin...


amicus...

 

[McKenna]

As you are seeing, that tolerance to differing opinions is a sham.

You caught me Amicus, you're absolutely right: I have no tolerance for intolerant people.

 

[amicus]

"The events of 11 September were the fruit of 'blind irreligious hatred': Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, explains why the attacks had nothing to do with Muslim beliefs."


This person is on a watch list of people who have openly contributed to terrorist organizations.

If that is true, what then?

I, for one would have never let Jane Fonda or John Kerry back into the country following their collaboration with the North Vietnamese Communists.

 

[impressive]

Sure was a pretty day today.

(I loved my neighbor as myself. Okay, well, I *thought* about loving my neighbor while I loved myself.)

 

[Guest]

Life as a Muslim in a "True Blue" part of the UK...

One of my best friends is a Muslim. She was born to white British parents and is middle class (if I have to lump her into a class). She married a Muslim guy and joined the faith. They have four beautiful children.

She walks down the road, wearing her head-scarf - as is the norm - as does her daughter. Her three sons look very much like any other British kid. They get shouted out from passing cars to "Go back home", "Piss off out of our country", "You fucking terrorists" I needn't go on. I was with her once and her children got spat upon.

We sometimes go shopping together. I get spoken to politely, but the people in the shops don't talk to her, they talk to her through me. I've chuckled to myself many times when she has opened her mouth to talk. She talks just like me. She is just like me, in every respect, she just has a different religion (I have no religion as such, but that's beside the point).

She and her husband work very hard running their own business, they pay their taxes, they bring up their children with a huge amount of love and respect. Her daughter is in the same class as my daughter at school, they are best mates.

These people are evil? That's a bloody joke.

Lou

 

[destinie21]

The initial post made me sick to my stomach. I'm off to weep for the sorrows of humanity

 

[cheerful_deviant]

I am aware that Christianity was also spread by blood and death, throughout Central and South America but that's not the way it started. I'm also aware that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, such as the Salem witch trials, the various European pogroms and inquisitions, the thirty year' war and other historical events but this was hundreds of years ago. The evil deeds being done in the name of Islam are being done right now.

I think if you study your history I think you'll find that far more bloody and horrific things have been done in the name of God than of Allah. Running from the Crusades where thousands of innocents were killed when Christians invaded their land and forced our 'moral superiority' on the 'hethans' by killing them.

Moving on to the conquest of Africa where Christians claimed lands for their flag and mercilessly killed all who opposed them. The Christian (read: white) control of much of Africa existed well into the 20th century.

Then on thru the conquest of the Americas where all Native cultures were crushed. No one will ever know how many were killed as the Spanish, French, English and many others came and devided up the land for themselves in the name of the King or Queen and God.

Muslims may be going thru a bloody and violent period right now, but we have plenty in our past as well. If their violence makes them evil, does that mean we are evil as well?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

... This person is on a watch list of people who have openly contributed to terrorist organizations....

That is what the man who imprisoned 5,000 people without due process, and in three years couldn't manage to convict a single one of them, claims.

I expect that of you, Amicus. I wouldn’t kill a single electron to try to enlighten you because I know your filament is broken.

I meant that post for Box, and anyone else whose brain has not ossified.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

"The events of 11 September were the fruit of 'blind irreligious hatred': Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, explains why the attacks had nothing to do with Muslim beliefs."


This person is on a watch list of people who have openly contributed to terrorist organizations.

If that is true, what then?

I, for one would have never let Jane Fonda or John Kerry back into the country following their collaboration with the North Vietnamese Communists.

Do you bother to listen to yourself or are you still living in a lightshow of acid flashbacks and Stupidity <insert trademark> overdoses?



On another note, I get what Box means. The Islamic world in middle East and Central Asia shows a world very similar to what existed in USA in the 1700s and in Europe throughout the 1600s, with pockets of modern cities with comparitively modern views and divisions. The thing is that such actions while similar to shit our ancestors did are not seen usually in modern America and thus we are quick to condemn. It is similar to condemnations of ancient lands for not embracing views we only embraced little more than a couple decades or at most a century ago.


I also see what everyone else says, people are people everywhere. There are the amicuses in Central Asia who want to see the Great Satan burn, the Tatelous who would like to continue working if only all this hatred and war would cease, and the doormouses dancing around, making due the best they can and keeping a light spirit to the world, and somewhere there is probably a version of me, some psychotic cynic with a less than reverant view of the world surrounding him.

P.S. Before screaming about how many people cheer the Ayatollah, al Sadr and Osama, think hard on how people cheer Rumsfield, Robertson, and Limbaugh. People are the same everywhere. Morons.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Tatelou
Call individuals, or individual acts evil, yes (as Abs did above), but not those millions of others who are just trying to live their lives as we are.

If one person can be evil... ten can be evil... a hundred... a thousand... a million.

To draw the line at "Individuals, yes, but not large groups of others" is arbitrary... better to not call individuals "evil", either. Acts? I can agree rationally with. People? VERY hard to justify.

...on Box's post in general

Irrational. As I said to Louie right before you, the justification for an entire people being evil is not easy... the acts of a few of them isn't sufficient. It is possible, I suppose, that all Muslims are evil--but as yet, its an assertion that doesn't have rational congress as we would have to have direct cognitive access to the moral absolute-value of each Muslim person alive (and possibly historically).

 

[Guest]

If one person can be evil... ten can be evil... a hundred... a thousand... a million.

To draw the line at "Individuals, yes, but not large groups of others" is arbitrary... better to not call individuals "evil", either. Acts? I can agree rationally with. People? VERY hard to justify.

Ok, fair enough. What I should've said was: Call the people who perpetrate individual acts evil, yes.

Better?

That's what I was getting at, and I'm sure most got me. But, logically, yes, you are right.

Louie

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think everyone should re read Box's comment and consider it. Especially those who were quick to condemn it. Not because it should be accepted or lauded, but because I think it represents a substantial portion of the people in the U.S.

I don't have to come here to hear it. It's rampant down at the bodega. It's alive and well at right aide and at the grand union. I can see it in action by walking to Thayer gate, where the MP's practice racial profiling unabashedly. I can hear it repeated in much less civil terms at the VFW back home. Even on Campus when I visit my brothers.

With every innocent blown up on a bus in Jerusalem, every poor hostage beheaded on the web, every child who died in Russia, the sentiment quietly grows, takes shape and invades more minds. With each atrocity it moves from a vague thought, to a red hot ember of anger to a rock solid fact in people's minds.

Box girded his loins, prepared for the slings and arrows and stated what a lot of americans feel, wether they proclaim it loudly from the pulpit or just believe it quietly. And it grows. Every day it grows as the barbarity of terrorists sinks to new lows to garner the shock effect they crave. With every press conference where the government fosters the idea that Arab, Muslim, terrorist are all the same word.

Here the person who voiced it has been chided, the majority here reject the notion you can characterize a religion by the acts of a few adherents. Here it's easy to take a stand against it because it's annonyamous and you will be in the majority. But here on the streets of this town, or my home town, or the town my grandfather lived in, or the campus, it isn't shouted down anymore. People quietly accept it at worst or fail to conftont it at best and it grows.

This is a scared country, and the portion of the population most terrified is the muslim population. They catch the fall out from it. They undergo the descrimination of it. They suffer greatly for their religion.

I don't condemn box for this sentiment. His post dosen't make me angry or sad. It frightens me, because I don't think he's on the lunatic fringe, I don't even think he is in the minority. Until muslims the world over stand up and with a unified voice say these people aren't us and we are not them, it will grow.

This kind of pervasive, if unspoken latent hatred for a class of people existed in Germany after World War I. It took only a few anti-semites, without even the excuse of 9/11 or web broadcast beheadings to fan that latant hate into fire. Krystalnacht is just waiting to happen here. It will take only the right act of barbarity and the right leader and it will explode with the same horrible outcome.

Look at his post again. Substitute Jew for Muslim. If that dosen't cause you to shiver, I don't know what will. Focused anger, for a specific act, diffused to cover a broad class of people. There is precedent for it and that precedent is chilling.

A long runing question about World War II has been how much the average German knew and how could normal people become such monsters. I wonder if we are not close to answering that question, when our own Krystalnacht and concentration camps spring up.

-Colly

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I maintain my position regardless the religious predicate... what religion it was had absolutely no bearing on my position.

 

[Liar]

This is the fourth time I attempt to write a reply to this thread. I felt like I had to say something, but every argument in the original post whooshed past me in a language I could barely comprehend.

So I'll just say a few short things.
Box, first you say "I believe that Muslims are the most evil persons in the world." But don't you actually mean that a substantial number the (in your opinion) most evil persons in the world right now are muslims? There is a world of difference between those two statements.

I'd like to know where the hell you got the idea that "Average Muslims in the street enncourage the terrorism of their co-religionists." As one who actually meet and speak with average muslims on a daily basis, I can assure you that you are either ill informed or just plain full of shit.

Those "co-religionists" are a bunch of fanatic nutjobs. And when a bunch of fanatic nutjobs have their whole religion at military, cultural and economical gunpoint the way that Islam has been from the christian west over the last half decade, fanatic nutjobs tend to get dangerous. It is not because they are Moslems that Osama, al Sadr et al are evil, no more than all the blood shed in the name of christianity is actually JC's fault.

#L