The Morbid Fear of Socialism

PaxNurgle

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"Socialism." This is a word I hear thrown about over and over again, in any political discussion, and in most cases, it makes me just roll my eyes.

Why?

First, lets define what Socialism really is.
It is a theory, defined by Karl Marx, that states that the role of government is to own and operate all factories, utilities, and buisnesses for it's own end. Under such a system, private non-government enterprise is restricted if not outlawed outright. In most cases, ownership of private property- particularly homes and land, is also restricted or outlawed. Consumers have few choices about what goods and services they are allowed to purchase or what is even available. Because the government owns all news media as well, any dissenting voices that compete with the government line are likewise, outlawed.

So if that is what socialism is, lets define what it is NOT.
Socialism has NOTHING to do with social justice, racial equality or equal opportunity. Teaching that racism is not okay, is NOT socialism.
It has nothing to do with regulating buisnesses for purposes of public health and safety.
Taxation of the wealthy and middle class is not socialism. NOT shifting the tax burden onto the lower middle and working clases is not socialism either.
Protection of the environment and green spaces is not socialism. Neither is public schools, libraries, or other infrastructure. Neither is provisions for protecting the poor, or providing low income housing. Some of these ideas can be considered progressive and not always economically viable (without unintended consequences) but these are not inherently socialist.

Most Americans, Canadians, or westerners would cringe at the idea of a real socialist system being put into place. With good reason. But over and over I hear the label "Socialist" being applied to things described above that have nothing to do with socialism. Which means, it is difficult to have a reasonable or even intelligible dialogue.

In contrast, I believe the greatest threat to democracy and freedom today is NOT socialism, rather it is totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is defined by an erosion of democratic norms, consolidation of power in the hands of a wealthy elite who are not subject to any rules governing abuses of power and corruption, supression of voting rights, intolerance of dissent, a strict code governing personal behavior (e.g. Islamic Sharia law and the Christian fundamentalist equivalent of the same) and a strong ethno-nationalism that seeks to punish or marginalize people of a minority ethnic or cultural background. Think of the recent rise of despots like Putin, Rodrigo Dutarte, Victor Orban, Recep Erdegan and Donald Trump, all of whom share the same characteristics and model for government.
 
"Socialism." This is a word I hear thrown about over and over again, in any political discussion, and in most cases, it makes me just roll my eyes.

Why?

First, lets define what Socialism really is.
It is a theory, defined by Karl Marx, that states that the role of government is to own and operate all factories, utilities, and buisnesses for it's own end. Under such a system, private non-government enterprise is restricted if not outlawed outright. In most cases, ownership of private property- particularly homes and land, is also restricted or outlawed. Consumers have few choices about what goods and services they are allowed to purchase or what is even available. Because the government owns all news media as well, any dissenting voices that compete with the government line are likewise, outlawed.

So if that is what socialism is, lets define what it is NOT.
Socialism has NOTHING to do with social justice, racial equality or equal opportunity. Teaching that racism is not okay, is NOT socialism.
It has nothing to do with regulating buisnesses for purposes of public health and safety.
Taxation of the wealthy and middle class is not socialism. NOT shifting the tax burden onto the lower middle and working clases is not socialism either.
Protection of the environment and green spaces is not socialism. Neither is public schools, libraries, or other infrastructure. Neither is provisions for protecting the poor, or providing low income housing. Some of these ideas can be considered progressive and not always economically viable (without unintended consequences) but these are not inherently socialist.

Most Americans, Canadians, or westerners would cringe at the idea of a real socialist system being put into place. With good reason. But over and over I hear the label "Socialist" being applied to things described above that have nothing to do with socialism. Which means, it is difficult to have a reasonable or even intelligible dialogue.

In contrast, I believe the greatest threat to democracy and freedom today is NOT socialism, rather it is totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is defined by an erosion of democratic norms, consolidation of power in the hands of a wealthy elite who are not subject to any rules governing abuses of power and corruption, supression of voting rights, intolerance of dissent, a strict code governing personal behavior (e.g. Islamic Sharia law and the Christian fundamentalist equivalent of the same) and a strong ethno-nationalism that seeks to punish or marginalize people of a minority ethnic or cultural background. Think of the recent rise of despots like Putin, Rodrigo Dutarte, Victor Orban, Recep Erdegan and Donald Trump, all of whom share the same characteristics and model for government.
More TDS on steroids. Suppression of voting right. LMFAO You're a one man clown show. :D
 
What is "TDS" and for that matter, what is your point exactly?

I'm trying to say that cynical totalitarian-leaning politicians have successfully preyed upon a collective and imagined fear of "socialism" without a clear definition of what socialism really means, to cover up the very real threat of totalitarian government and corresponding erosion of liberty and democracy. If you disagree, explain how, please.
 
"Socialism." This is a word I hear thrown about over and over again, in any political discussion, and in most cases, it makes me just roll my eyes.

Why?

First, lets define what Socialism really is.
It is a theory, defined by Karl Marx
The socialist movement existed before Marx joined it, and, in my view, would have been better off without the pseudoscientific intellectual substructure Marx gave it.
 
I believe the greatest threat to democracy and freedom today is NOT socialism, rather it is totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is defined by an erosion of democratic norms, consolidation of power in the hands of a wealthy elite who are not subject to any rules governing abuses of power and corruption, supression of voting rights, intolerance of dissent, a strict code governing personal behavior (e.g. Islamic Sharia law and the Christian fundamentalist equivalent of the same) and a strong ethno-nationalism that seeks to punish or marginalize people of a minority ethnic or cultural background. Think of the recent rise of despots like Putin, Rodrigo Dutarte, Victor Orban, Recep Erdegan and Donald Trump, all of whom share the same characteristics and model for government.
Here's how I see it. The government is like a gun. Every new law and regulation makes the gun bigger and more accurate and more deadly. Periodically, we have a messy popularity contest and we hand the gun over to someone. They get to wave the gun around and shoot at things or people they don't like.

People get hurt all the time by someone in government waving the gun around righteously thinking that they can solve the problem with one more bullet. But, all they do is hurt people.

The solution to a totalitarian government is to dismantle it's power structure. It's not to vote in a different person to wield the totalitarian powers better, it is to dissolve it altogether.
 
Socialism is economic, societal and cultural morbidity.

And it's one of those words used by Bernie Sanders,
but no one else ever fits the definition by nit-pick
and prefer more progressive-sounding labels
like, Liberal, Pragmatic and Progressive.

It is any ideology that puts the greater good above what the individual considers their own good.
 
Here's how I see it. The government is like a gun. Every new law and regulation makes the gun bigger and more accurate and more deadly. Periodically, we have a messy popularity contest and we hand the gun over to someone. They get to wave the gun around and shoot at things or people they don't like.

People get hurt all the time by someone in government waving the gun around righteously thinking that they can solve the problem with one more bullet. But, all they do is hurt people.

The solution to a totalitarian government is to dismantle it's power structure. It's not to vote in a different person to wield the totalitarian powers better, it is to dissolve it altogether.
Good thing you don't (yet) live in country with a totalitarian government then eh?
 
Here's how I see it. The government is like a gun. Every new law and regulation makes the gun bigger and more accurate and more deadly. Periodically, we have a messy popularity contest and we hand the gun over to someone. They get to wave the gun around and shoot at things or people they don't like.

People get hurt all the time by someone in government waving the gun around righteously thinking that they can solve the problem with one more bullet. But, all they do is hurt people.

The solution to a totalitarian government is to dismantle it's power structure. It's not to vote in a different person to wield the totalitarian powers better, it is to dissolve it altogether.
What you are describing is not how government works in real life. In real life, it provides a lot of people with very good things. And when a government collapses, as in Somalia, nothing good ever follows.
 
And it's one of those words used by Bernie Sanders,
He shouldn't. He's really only a left-progressive social democrat -- he wants a vigorous welfare state, not the nationalization of the whole private-sector economy. Just like most "socialist" parties in Europe nowadays.
 
Here's how I see it. The government is like a gun. Every new law and regulation makes the gun bigger and more accurate and more deadly. Periodically, we have a messy popularity contest and we hand the gun over to someone. They get to wave the gun around and shoot at things or people they don't like.

People get hurt all the time by someone in government waving the gun around righteously thinking that they can solve the problem with one more bullet. But, all they do is hurt people.

The solution to a totalitarian government is to dismantle it's power structure. It's not to vote in a different person to wield the totalitarian powers better, it is to dissolve it altogether.
Totalitarianism is dictatorship + thought control. Democratic socialism is neither.
 
Good thing you don't (yet) live in country with a totalitarian government then eh?
Well, this is more of a proactive measure. The path to a government that controls all aspects of your life has many steps to it. Each step where the government is more powerful, and exerts more control is a step towards totalitarianism.

The way you go in the opposite direction with more freedom is to dismantle parts of the government, eliminate laws and regulations and make it harder for it to use it's powers against the public.
 
Socialism doesnt exist anywhere and never has
 
Totalitarianism is dictatorship + thought control. Democratic socialism is neither.
I don't really care. You can call it what you want and you can talk about the nuance about how you want it to play out, but I oppose all infringements on personal liberty. I believe that all human beings should have the maximum levels of personal freedom (so long as they are not infringing on others).

I will fight against every additional constraint and mechanism of government interference. I oppose our steady march towards the slave state.
 
What you are describing is not how government works in real life. In real life, it provides a lot of people with very good things. And when a government collapses, as in Somalia, nothing good ever follows.
Do you support the drug war?
 
I don't really care. You can call it what you want and you can talk about the nuance about how you want it to play out, but I oppose all infringements on personal liberty. I believe that all human beings should have the maximum levels of personal freedom (so long as they are not infringing on others).

I will fight against every additional constraint and mechanism of government interference. I oppose our steady march towards the slave state.

US News and World Report, Oct. 29, 2018​

Young Voters Support Democratic Socialist Policies​


Young people aren't just more inclined to vote for Democrats next week, a majority also support policies embraced by the democratic socialist wing of the party, such as single-payer health care, guaranteed jobs and free tuition for some students, according to a poll by Harvard University's Institute of Politics.
Support for capitalism (43 percent) still exceeds support for socialism (31 percent) in the survey of 18-29-year-olds, the most recent of biennial polls the IOP has been conducting since 2000. But support for the concept of democratic socialism is at 39 percent, and the numbers are higher for broad social and economic policies to empower workers and pay for a government social safety net.

And youth voters overall are showing more sympathy for the government support programs espoused by Democratic presidential contender Sen. Bernie Sanders in 2016.
Fifty-six percent of those polled said they support a federal jobs guarantee for a job that pays at least $15 an hour and includes health care, paid sick leave and family leave. The number jumps to 63 percent among likely voters.

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...-voters-support-democratic-socialist-policies
 
A majority of people in India do not believe that homosexuality should be tolerated.

Please explain the merits of this publicly held belief.
 
Government cannot exist without taxes. Taxes take things from people against their will.
Correct. The very existance of government is based off of taxes, which is taking things from people against their will.

The government only exists because of it's continued theft.
 
Gallup Survey, AUGUST 13, 2018

STORY HIGHLIGHTS​

  • 47% of Democrats view capitalism positively, down from 56% in 2016
  • 57% of Democrats now view socialism positively, little changed from 2010
  • Republicans very positive about capitalism; 16% positive on socialism
https://news.gallup.com/poll/240725/democrats-positive-socialism-capitalism.aspx

I would like to find what opinion surveys said about support for socialism during the 1930's, and the 1960's, but I have not found any.
 
69% of Ukrainians do not believe that homosexuality should be accepted in their society.

Should public policy reflect this attitude in Ukraine?
 
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