The minors rule

[Couture]

Could someone help me out with this minors rule. I've written a story, but I'm not sure if I can post it here. No where in the story does it say the girls are minors, but it is set in highschool.

This rule is kind of confusing at times to me. For instance, I can show you several instances in some of the incest stories where the writer refers to the girl's budding breasts. This dates the young girl as being much younger than a highschool senior.

Does this mean a story where a character has just had her first period is okay, yet a story where you say she was 13 is bad?

Thanks in advance

 

[bobo_daclown]

Ultimately, it works like this:

If you mention that a participant in a sexual activity (very brief way of saying everything that could be said) is under the legal age of 18, you can be criminally charged.

Other than that, allusions to such a child would be grounds for the moderators to remove/edit your post and warn/expel you.

We may not be the pinacle of ethics, but we don't need legal problems.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, you can't be criminally charged for fiction yet. COPA is still sitting at the Supreme Court.

In stories, just make it simple and keep the characters 18 and what an 18 year old might be like.

References to obviously pre-adolescence and puberty are a no-no as well, but they do slip by the editor who reads literally dozens of stories a night.

This has been dithered over before, whether or not Lit should allow it since there is no law that actually forbids fictional written characters to have underage sex. However, it's a Lit rule and it's a firm one. If you find a story with it in there, it's not a case of "why did that author get to do it?" It's a case of it slipped by the editor and please email her at info@literotica.com.

There are FAQs on the story index page that will help answer your questions as well as in the writer's guidelines.

 

[Couture]

What about high school? Technically, a small portion of high school students are over 18. Can I write about high school students?

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yes.

 

[Guest]

Other options

No disrespect meant to the good folks that give us Literotica to post and play at but there are options for stories concerning characters under the age of eighteen. One easily mentioned is posting directly to a newsgroup, there is also a site that collects postings from newsgroups that does include under-eighteen stories and characters. I'll glady provide URLs in a private message or e-mail to anyone interested.

I can't see see the harm in a story having characters under the age of eighteeen, sometimes that is the hook that makes the tale exciting. Unfortunately we live in a culture were lawyers and those forcing their morals upon us under threat of criminal prosecution have encroached yet further on the last free frontier, the space between our ears.

 

[Celtic_Heart]

I can live with the rule but it's awkward. Living in a country where the legal age of consent is 16 means I've had to edit a couple of stories to get them posted on here.

"Discovering Intimacy" is a prime example. In the original version the main character is 16 on the Lit version she's 18. It took a bit of doing to make it work as it involved more than just a change of ages.

Still, from the responses I've had, it seems to have worked.

 

[poohlive]

Where does the line really go from this spot?
Ok, here's a few things I've thought up in that minor rule.
No one under the age of 18.
What about flashbacks? Could a twenty one year old briefly remember her experiences of sixteen? She's still 21, nothing's going to change that, but inside her head, temporarily, she's experiencing things as a 16 year old.
And... what about other species?
An 300 year old elf looks just like a 15 year old man or woman. Now, you can't tell me three hundred is too young, can you?
What about physical disease? There's one, on Maury Povich, I saw, where this nearly thirty year old woman looked like she was 12. Come on now, she's thirty years old and she looks twelve. Technically that doesn't break any rules, she's a woman able to make her own decisions, just happens to have budding breasts and no pubic hair.
What if a woman is born on Venus?
On Venus a year passed every 6 or 7 months. So, a 12 year old earth woman would be a 20 year old Venus woman.
Speaking of aliens, what about things like Klingons, or Chewbacca's or Martian's? I mean, do we even know what the age limit for a Vulcan is? Pun far is like a week of intense sex, and Vulcans age very slowly.
Basically, I'm just trying to see how much is actually allowed, and where does the line really stop?
How old do vegetables have to be before they can be masterbated with? (Yeah, now that's comedy)

 

[Weird Harold]

Where does the line really go from this spot?
Ok, here's a few things I've thought up in that minor rule.
No one under the age of 18.
What about flashbacks? Could a twenty one year old briefly remember her experiences of sixteen? She's still 21, nothing's going to change that, but inside her head, temporarily, she's experiencing things as a 16 year old.
And... what about other species?

A twentyone year old could say, "I lost my virginity at age 12," but she couldn't go into graphic detail about it.

Most of this is common sense. If the intent is to arouse the reader with the character's immaturity, it probably violates the spirit of the rule. If the intent is to better define a character's sexuality by relating the history, then it probably will get by if it isn't too explicit.

If you absolutely MUST write about underage sexual participants, there are numerous other sites that will accept your story. There is no real need to circumvent the rules here.

 

[Jaz]

The line and how to cross it...a little.

I find the 18 yr old rule a little chafing, and unrealistic. It would be lke imposing a restriction that says nobody under 21 will drink in a story. In that spirit illegal drugs should be outlawed, 15 yr old drivers, as well as cigarette use and kids who play hooky.

Hmm no law against it per se, but all this fucking cursing is getting out of hand too. Especially with people under 18.

I think the rule is a little silly.

One way to get around it is with a line like this:

"Susan was 18 yrs old. She had a sweet immature face and body that made her appear to be 16 (15,14, 13, 12...) but she was really 18."

But having said all that (sigh)...it's not my site, and if it was really going to cause me legal troubles--heck I'd make the age 21. I'd ban all gay stories too cuz in some states that's illegal. Anal, NC, Rape, incest--ban em all! I've heard pics can cause trouble too, snip, snip, cut, cut. I think I'd go with romance stories only, and have lots and lots of butterflies, roses and every story would end with a wedding. In a church. Oh yeah and they'd both be virgins.

If it is illegal anywhere, I'd ban it on my site, cuz I'm a gutless bastard who does not need the hassle. So Laurel, Manu I'm not really finding fault.

Finally there are a ton of free sites that ignore the age restriction. They slap a disclaimer, and a youth restricted viewing label, and post whatever they jolly well please to. If anyone needs a list, let me know.

There, now I can rest easy.

 

[4Saken]

I feel your pain

I'm a 21-year-old author who enjoy writing about my main character ("me") with youger guys. The 18-year-old rule does not give me much room for that. I have to edit in my head to raise the ages of my boys and it drives me nuts.

Last spring I got into a discussion on this board concering why "its not ok to write about a 21 year old with a 17 year old, but its ok to write about gettin with Fluffy, your pet bunny rabbit". With Easter approaching, I'm sure you can see where those posts ended up going. Either way, rules are rules and I follow them if I have to---but none of us have to like it---And there are still no rules governing our imaginations.

-4Saken

 

[poohlive]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to purposely break the 18 year old rule, I was just putting some questions up there. I wanted to see what exactly was behind the rule, you know, like testing the first amendment, how far does it extend.
It's not that I don't like the 18 year old rule, per say. I mean, I can understand where it's coming from, and why it's here. I bet if there wasn't an 18 year old rule, then we'd probably need a credit card to even get past the front page.
I don't agree with Jaz about Laurel being a coward or anything, but he does bring up some interesting topics.
You know, here's an idea. Why don't we just put underage stories right next to the rape stories and the bestiality stories? I mean, they are all in the same context, all illegal in the United States. And it's not supported by Literotica, just a sort of on the side web site.
Why is that? Is the law different with underage stories than with rape, or bestiality? Is there a reason that those underage stories were given a complete no, while the others ones were just sort of shoved under the table.
Some of it isn't even that sick. I mean, if you go to the extreme it can be. I crossed over a story where this one guy was molesting 5 and 6 year olds. That about made me wanna puke, but honestly, a 17 year old and an 18 year old? Two 16 year olds? That's technically illegal, but a lot more beautiful, aeshtetically speaking, than rape.
Rape is illegal, bestiality is illegal, child porn is illegal.
Are we to just assume two out of three ain't bad? Or is something more up here?
Once again, I'm just putting it out there. Don't want to change the site, or the world or anything. Simply asking questions.
You know, that's what Socrates did that eventually got him killed, he kept asking people questions.

 

[Laurel]

Hi all! First off, fiction involving underage characters is not illegal - nor, IMHO, should it or any other fiction be illegal. Secondly, there are no bestiality stories on Literotica - not out of any moral judgment on our part. Thirdly, our underage rule is not a moral judgment nor is it born out of the illegality of underage sex. I personally would not feel comfortable publishing erotic stories involving young children. Thus, an line had to be drawn. We drew it at the legal age of consent in our neck of the woods - 18 years of age. Had we drawn it at 16, those who live in areas where 14 or 12 is the age of consent would find that restrictive.

We do believe in freedom of speech - and that freedom includes our right as a privately-owned site to decide our own rules. There are sites that will not accept incest stories. Though we do accept such stories, I respect every webmaster's right to make decisions - for any reason - about which content they choose to accept and exclude. As WH said, there are many sites on the web that will publish any stories which do not meet our age limit. This rule is not an indictment of such stories, nor of authors who write them or sites which publish them.

 

[phoenixfire45]

guys calm down

listen i have a degree in political science and i work for the government and i will say this.

the age of consent is 16 here in the us. and it works as such if someone who is 16 or 17 is engaged in a relationship of any kind with someone who is between the ages of 20 and 18 it is not illegal. the limit is 21 where it becomes illegal ( sorry 4saken) this is meant to protect children who are ill equipped to make adult decisions b/c they lack experience in certain situations. now we all know that if 4saken wanted to do a 17 yr. old in real life no jury in the world would convict her of a crime. but it is meant to protect against the extremes like say a 30 yr. old with a 16 yr. old or things of that nature

 

[wildsweetone]

just as a slight sidetrack here...

how many 16/18 year old virgins are there in the world?

 

[Whispersecret]

Probably more than you think. They're just not going to admit it. I was nineteen. A very good friend of mine is 32. (She's getting married this month.) Looking back, I wish I'd have waited longer.

 

[wildsweetone]

just taking that thought a step further, i wonder how many people waited until marriage before having sexual intercourse?

hindsight is a wonderful gift whisper, we all have 20/20 vision with it.

 

[Jaz]

God save all the wee little ones

It just seems to me this, and others like it are ADULT sites. I just don't think it's unreasonable to expect a reflection of reality.

While I'm sure there are some 32 yr old virgins out there, it certainly is not the norm. There are plenty of people who have never tried drugs, or drank, or cheated on their wives, or, or OR...any number of things that we choose to write about.

The 18 rule prevents us from writing cautionary tales. Most of us have done things in our teens that we regret, that we might do differently. "If I want to write about Susie's big mistake" how her Boyfriend pressured her, they got drunk, he came in 30 seconds, bragged to his friends, and dumped her--I should be able to.

I actually think the 18 rule paints an especially twisted view of Incest. Obviously there are no comprehensie stats on the subject, but I think it's seriously bent to only show 18 and up, overwhelmingly, consensual Incest stories. Who's zoomin who? The reality is most incest is underage, non consensual.

Laurel's point is well taken it can be a slippery slope. While I think 15 is a perfectly normal age limit for a teenage sex story on an Adult site, I can understand how others might not. Um, but if the same site has incest, gay anal, and NC rape content, willing 15 (16,17) yr old sex seems pretty tame to me.

But then considering what I write about,almost everything is pretty tame for me.

I thought it was wicked neat how this thread came alive after 3 months, and as I had 2 cents lying around, I thought I'd weigh in.

Jaz

 

[DiablaRaven]

What about the youngin's?

Personally, I have nothing against stories written about the 12 and older set. I lost my virginity when I was quite young, and looking back, would probably do it again.

That said, I'm not sure why people are chafing that Lit doesn't allow these stories. Frankly, what we have here is free hosting that offers people who want to write about stuff that turns 'em on a chance to do so, and be seen by a large number of people. The webmasters can put anything they want to on their site - and restrict things they don't want to put on. It's their choice, and arguing about it won't change that.

On many of the art sites (and writing is an art, ye know) I've had work featured on, there are always rules. You want your stuff on there, you follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, don't put your stuff up. I understand that you might be frustrated if everything you write about involved people under the age of 18, but honestly, there are hundreds of other sites out there which allow these types of stories - Literotica's not one of them.

C'est la vie, eh?

 

[Jaz]

That's Life in America

Hmm not sure I agree with DR.
Clearly every site has rules. I even happen to respect that. But sometimes rules DO change. Sometimes people listen to opposing points of view, consider different positions and (GASP) change their minds. If enough of us lift our voice in song, join hands and say "we believe in fairys"--maybe the wemasters have a change of heart. Maybe they decide to poll their Authors/audience and ask what we think.

Maybe not.

Either way one thing is sure, change rarely happens unless someone speaks up. The fact that Laurel/Manu have a discussion board is telling. The fact that they have one for Authors says even more. The fact that they are active participants of it--well that pretty much screams that they are interested in what we have to say.



It's not a complaint, it's a conversation.


Jaz

 

[poohlive]

Quote from Laurel:

"... there are no bestiality stories on Literotica."


Ahhh, but you are wrong. I was just reading a bestiality story the other day on Literotica. It was in the sexual role playing forum, which, of course, many beasiality threads are.

Now, anyone that goes onto the sexual role playing forum knows that Laurel has a big sign on the top for everyone to read, pointing out the do's and dont's of the forum. Basically, all characters must be over 18.

So, why is bestiality allowed in the SRP? Especially since you say you don't put that stuff on your site.

The way I see it, either the role playing forums are waived by you (Laurel/Manu) with the freedom of speech clause, and things such as bestiality can be posted (which would also make things like underage stories open to role play as well) ...

OR

Laurel just forgot to mention that bestiality is not allowed on this site, and everyone simply thought it was ok. (which of course, now it would have to be banned, just like underage)

OR
is there a new policy? Is bestiality allowed now? Is there a
new category coming up? I think this would be most interesting.

Just something I wanted to throw out there, see if anyone else thought it was odd or not. I wasn't quite sure what to make of it myself. Laurel, any help?

 

[DiablaRaven]

Meself, I tend to say "don't rock the boat." Sure, forums are here, but it's doubtful that they'll change their minds at this point. But sure, you can hope. *grins*

Gotta agree to disagree on that front, I guess!

 

[Justin_Thyme]

Age old issues

I suppose that in all honesty I have no problem with most rules, as long as they are rules designed to form some sort of a basis for behavior. And, yes, there must be a line somewhere that will serve as a starting point. At Lit it happens to be age 18.
The problem with lines is generally there is space on both sides of the line--unless it is drawn at the very bottom or at the extreme top .
My problem often relates to having to ignore or write around the beginnings of awareness (puberty). It seems extremely dumb to me to have to say that young people must be 18 before they even begin to wonder why it is that girls sit on the toilet stool to pee while young guys get to stand in front and, often as not, miss the damn thing. And, heaven forbid, note that underage girls fill out their tee shirts more interestingly than do most boys.
I have no problem with exercising restraint and not following up on curiosity issues with exploratory gropings until age 18--unless both the groper and the gropee happen to be 16. Reality issues aside, kids that age probably have no business going beyond the wondering stage anyhow.
For my own part, I certainly did not wait until I was in the Air Force to wonder if a girl's breast would feel nice cupped in my hand--I just do not write about it in stories I submit to Lit.

Tried to limit this to 2 cents worth but feel I MAY have exceeded the limit and went as high as a nickle's woth. J.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

Re: guys calm down

listen i have a degree in political science and i work for the government and i will say this.

the age of consent is 16 here in the us. and it works as such if someone who is 16 or 17 is engaged in a relationship of any kind with someone who is between the ages of 20 and 18 it is not illegal. the limit is 21 where it becomes illegal ( sorry 4saken) this is meant to protect children who are ill equipped to make adult decisions b/c they lack experience in certain situations. now we all know that if 4saken wanted to do a 17 yr. old in real life no jury in the world would convict her of a crime. but it is meant to protect against the extremes like say a 30 yr. old with a 16 yr. old or things of that nature

:
Well that poster might work for the US government,
but he doesn't know shit about the age of consent.
In the USA, the age of consent -- like so much of our law --
is a STATE matter. I've seen the ages for various states,
and they vary all over the place.
For that matter, the age of consent is not the age which
you may depict people engaging in sex. In PICTURES, that
is eighteen -- and that is a federal law for the Internet;
for stories any age is legal. As Laurel has pointed out
THIS discussion -- and several other times earlier --
the eighteen-year-old limit is a rule of this site; it
isn't a rule of the USA.
(That said, I wrote a story once in which all the participans were
horses. I didn't state the ages -- I almost never do --
but if you know anything about horses, you know that they are all a lot younger than eighteen. I didn't submit it here. Well, I wantyed to write a story in which the hero was hung like a horse.)

 

[karmadog]

SRP v. Stories

There is a major difference between what is posted on a BB and what is editorially screened by the site owners. I'm not fully informed on internet law (is anyone?), but I would think that obscenity charges would be easier to beat if it were on a BB as opposed to something screened and approved.

I agree that there have been some excellent works of art written about underage sex, but would a jury think that what you wrote was art or pornography? Would you like to find out? I would not. Think of the rules as protecting you from our fundamentalist attorney general. Remember the Meese commission. Ashcroft is potentially more dangerous to freedom of expression.