The Long Emergency (Political)

rgraham666

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A buddy of mine sent me this. It scared the living shit out of me.

Discuss.

-------------------------------------

The Long Emergency

What's going to happen as we start running out of cheap gas to guzzle?

By JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER


A few weeks ago, the price of oil ratcheted above fifty-five dollars a barrel, which is about twenty dollars a barrel more than a year ago. The next day, the oil story was buried on page six of the New York Times business section. Apparently, the price of oil is not considered significant news, even when it goes up five bucks a barrel in the span of ten days. That same day, the stock market shot up more than a hundred points because, CNN said, government data showed no signs of inflation. Note to clueless nation: Call planet Earth.


Carl Jung, one of the fathers of psychology, famously remarked that "people cannot stand too much reality." What you're about to read may challenge your assumptions about the kind of world we live in, and especially the kind of world into which events are propelling us. We are in for a rough ride through uncharted territory.


It has been very hard for Americans -- lost in dark raptures of nonstop infotainment, recreational shopping and compulsive motoring -- to make sense of the gathering forces that will fundamentally alter the terms of everyday life in our technological society. Even after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, America is still sleepwalking into the future. I call this coming time the Long Emergency.


Most immediately we face the end of the cheap-fossil-fuel era. It is no exaggeration to state that reliable supplies of cheap oil and natural gas underlie everything we identify as the necessities of modern life -- not to mention all of its comforts and luxuries: central heating, air conditioning, cars, airplanes, electric lights, inexpensive clothing, recorded music, movies, hip-replacement surgery, national defense -- you name it.


The few Americans who are even aware that there is a gathering global-energy predicament usually misunderstand the core of the argument. That argument states that we don't have to run out of oil to start having severe problems with industrial civilization and its dependent systems. We only have to slip over the all-time production peak and begin a slide down the arc of steady depletion.


The term "global oil-production peak" means that a turning point will come when the world produces the most oil it will ever produce in a given year and, after that, yearly production will inexorably decline. It is usually represented graphically in a bell curve. The peak is the top of the curve, the halfway point of the world's all-time total endowment, meaning half the world's oil will be left. That seems like a lot of oil, and it is, but there's a big catch: It's the half that is much more difficult to extract, far more costly to get, of much poorer quality and located mostly in places where the people hate us. A substantial amount of it will never be extracted.


The United States passed its own oil peak -- about 11 million barrels a day -- in 1970, and since then production has dropped steadily. In 2004 it ran just above 5 million barrels a day (we get a tad more from natural-gas condensates). Yet we consume roughly 20 million barrels a day now. That means we have to import about two-thirds of our oil, and the ratio will continue to worsen.


The U.S. peak in 1970 brought on a portentous change in geoeconomic power. Within a few years, foreign producers, chiefly OPEC, were setting the price of oil, and this in turn led to the oil crises of the 1970s. In response, frantic development of non-OPEC oil, especially the North Sea fields of England and Norway, essentially saved the West's ass for about two decades. Since 1999, these fields have entered depletion. Meanwhile, worldwide discovery of new oil has steadily declined to insignificant levels in 2003 and 2004.


Some "cornucopians" claim that the Earth has something like a creamy nougat center of "abiotic" oil that will naturally replenish the great oil fields of the world. The facts speak differently. There has been no replacement whatsoever of oil already extracted from the fields of America or any other place.


Now we are faced with the global oil-production peak. The best estimates of when this will actually happen have been somewhere between now and 2010. In 2004, however, after demand from burgeoning China and India shot up, and revelations that Shell Oil wildly misstated its reserves, and Saudi Arabia proved incapable of goosing up its production despite promises to do so, the most knowledgeable experts revised their predictions and now concur that 2005 is apt to be the year of all-time global peak production.


It will change everything about how we live.


To aggravate matters, American natural-gas production is also declining, at five percent a year, despite frenetic new drilling, and with the potential of much steeper declines ahead. Because of the oil crises of the 1970s, the nuclear-plant disasters at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and the acid-rain problem, the U.S. chose to make gas its first choice for electric-power generation. The result was that just about every power plant built after 1980 has to run on gas. Half the homes in America are heated with gas. To further complicate matters, gas isn't easy to import. Here in North America, it is distributed through a vast pipeline network. Gas imported from overseas would have to be compressed at minus-260 degrees Fahrenheit in pressurized tanker ships and unloaded (re-gasified) at special terminals, of which few exist in America. Moreover, the first attempts to site new terminals have met furious opposition because they are such ripe targets for terrorism.


Some other things about the global energy predicament are poorly understood by the public and even our leaders. This is going to be a permanent energy crisis, and these energy problems will synergize with the disruptions of climate change, epidemic disease and population overshoot to produce higher orders of trouble.


We will have to accommodate ourselves to fundamentally changed conditions.


No combination of alternative fuels will allow us to run American life the way we have been used to running it, or even a substantial fraction of it. The wonders of steady technological progress achieved through the reign of cheap oil have lulled us into a kind of Jiminy Cricket syndrome, leading many Americans to believe that anything we wish for hard enough will come true. These days, even people who ought to know better are wishing ardently for a seamless transition from fossil fuels to their putative replacements.


The widely touted "hydrogen economy" is a particularly cruel hoax. We are not going to replace the U.S. automobile and truck fleet with vehicles run on fuel cells. For one thing, the current generation of fuel cells is largely designed to run on hydrogen obtained from natural gas. The other way to get hydrogen in the quantities wished for would be electrolysis of water using power from hundreds of nuclear plants. Apart from the dim prospect of our building that many nuclear plants soon enough, there are also numerous severe problems with hydrogen's nature as an element that present forbidding obstacles to its use as a replacement for oil and gas, especially in storage and transport.


Wishful notions about rescuing our way of life with "renewables" are also unrealistic. Solar-electric systems and wind turbines face not only the enormous problem of scale but the fact that the components require substantial amounts of energy to manufacture and the probability that they can't be manufactured at all without the underlying support platform of a fossil-fuel economy. We will surely use solar and wind technology to generate some electricity for a period ahead but probably at a very local and small scale.


Virtually all "biomass" schemes for using plants to create liquid fuels cannot be scaled up to even a fraction of the level at which things are currently run. What's more, these schemes are predicated on using oil and gas "inputs" (fertilizers, weed-killers) to grow the biomass crops that would be converted into ethanol or bio-diesel fuels. This is a net energy loser -- you might as well just burn the inputs and not bother with the biomass products. Proposals to distill trash and waste into oil by means of thermal depolymerization depend on the huge waste stream produced by a cheap oil and gas economy in the first place.


Coal is far less versatile than oil and gas, extant in less abundant supplies than many people assume and fraught with huge ecological drawbacks -- as a contributor to greenhouse "global warming" gases and many health and toxicity issues ranging from widespread mercury poisoning to acid rain. You can make synthetic oil from coal, but the only time this was tried on a large scale was by the Nazis under wartime conditions, using impressive amounts of slave labor.


If we wish to keep the lights on in America after 2020, we may indeed have to resort to nuclear power, with all its practical problems and eco-conundrums. Under optimal conditions, it could take ten years to get a new generation of nuclear power plants into operation, and the price may be beyond our means. Uranium is also a resource in finite supply. We are no closer to the more difficult project of atomic fusion, by the way, than we were in the 1970s.


The upshot of all this is that we are entering a historical period of potentially great instability, turbulence and hardship. Obviously, geopolitical maneuvering around the world's richest energy regions has already led to war and promises more international military conflict. Since the Middle East contains two-thirds of the world's remaining oil supplies, the U.S. has attempted desperately to stabilize the region by, in effect, opening a big police station in Iraq. The intent was not just to secure Iraq's oil but to modify and influence the behavior of neighboring states around the Persian Gulf, especially Iran and Saudi Arabia. The results have been far from entirely positive, and our future prospects in that part of the world are not something we can feel altogether confident about.


And then there is the issue of China, which, in 2004, became the world's second-greatest consumer of oil, surpassing Japan. China's surging industrial growth has made it increasingly dependent on the imports we are counting on. If China wanted to, it could easily walk into some of these places -- the Middle East, former Soviet republics in central Asia -- and extend its hegemony by force. Is America prepared to contest for this oil in an Asian land war with the Chinese army? I doubt it. Nor can the U.S. military occupy regions of the Eastern Hemisphere indefinitely, or hope to secure either the terrain or the oil infrastructure of one distant, unfriendly country after another. A likely scenario is that the U.S. could exhaust and bankrupt itself trying to do this, and be forced to withdraw back into our own hemisphere, having lost access to most of the world's remaining oil in the process.


We know that our national leaders are hardly uninformed about this predicament. President George W. Bush has been briefed on the dangers of the oil-peak situation as long ago as before the 2000 election and repeatedly since then. In March, the Department of Energy released a report that officially acknowledges for the first time that peak oil is for real and states plainly that "the world has never faced a problem like this. Without massive mitigation more than a decade before the fact, the problem will be pervasive and will not be temporary."


Most of all, the Long Emergency will require us to make other arrangements for the way we live in the United States. America is in a special predicament due to a set of unfortunate choices we made as a society in the twentieth century. Perhaps the worst was to let our towns and cities rot away and to replace them with suburbia, which had the additional side effect of trashing a lot of the best farmland in America. Suburbia will come to be regarded as the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world. It has a tragic destiny. The psychology of previous investment suggests that we will defend our drive-in utopia long after it has become a terrible liability.


Before long, the suburbs will fail us in practical terms. We made the ongoing development of housing subdivisions, highway strips, fried-food shacks and shopping malls the basis of our economy, and when we have to stop making more of those things, the bottom will fall out.


The circumstances of the Long Emergency will require us to downscale and re-scale virtually everything we do and how we do it, from the kind of communities we physically inhabit to the way we grow our food to the way we work and trade the products of our work. Our lives will become profoundly and intensely local. Daily life will be far less about mobility and much more about staying where you are. Anything organized on the large scale, whether it is government or a corporate business enterprise such as Wal-Mart, will wither as the cheap energy props that support bigness fall away. The turbulence of the Long Emergency will produce a lot of economic losers, and many of these will be members of an angry and aggrieved former middle class.


Food production is going to be an enormous problem in the Long Emergency. As industrial agriculture fails due to a scarcity of oil- and gas-based inputs, we will certainly have to grow more of our food closer to where we live, and do it on a smaller scale. The American economy of the mid-twenty-first century may actually center on agriculture, not information, not high tech, not "services" like real estate sales or hawking cheeseburgers to tourists. Farming. This is no doubt a startling, radical idea, and it raises extremely difficult questions about the reallocation of land and the nature of work. The relentless subdividing of land in the late twentieth century has destroyed the contiguity and integrity of the rural landscape in most places. The process of readjustment is apt to be disorderly and improvisational. Food production will necessarily be much more labor-intensive than it has been for decades. We can anticipate the re-formation of a native-born American farm-laboring class. It will be composed largely of the aforementioned economic losers who had to relinquish their grip on the American dream. These masses of disentitled people may enter into quasi-feudal social relations with those who own land in exchange for food and physical security. But their sense of grievance will remain fresh, and if mistreated they may simply seize that land.


The way that commerce is currently organized in America will not survive far into the Long Emergency. Wal-Mart's "warehouse on wheels" won't be such a bargain in a non-cheap-oil economy. The national chain stores' 12,000-mile manufacturing supply lines could easily be interrupted by military contests over oil and by internal conflict in the nations that have been supplying us with ultra-cheap manufactured goods, because they, too, will be struggling with similar issues of energy famine and all the disorders that go with it.


As these things occur, America will have to make other arrangements for the manufacture, distribution and sale of ordinary goods. They will probably be made on a "cottage industry" basis rather than the factory system we once had, since the scale of available energy will be much lower -- and we are not going to replay the twentieth century. Tens of thousands of the common products we enjoy today, from paints to pharmaceuticals, are made out of oil. They will become increasingly scarce or unavailable. The selling of things will have to be reorganized at the local scale. It will have to be based on moving merchandise shorter distances. It is almost certain to result in higher costs for the things we buy and far fewer choices.


The automobile will be a diminished presence in our lives, to say the least. With gasoline in short supply, not to mention tax revenue, our roads will surely suffer. The interstate highway system is more delicate than the public realizes. If the "level of service" (as traffic engineers call it) is not maintained to the highest degree, problems multiply and escalate quickly. The system does not tolerate partial failure. The interstates are either in excellent condition, or they quickly fall apart.


America today has a railroad system that the Bulgarians would be ashamed of. Neither of the two major presidential candidates in 2004 mentioned railroads, but if we don't refurbish our rail system, then there may be no long-range travel or transport of goods at all a few decades from now. The commercial aviation industry, already on its knees financially, is likely to vanish. The sheer cost of maintaining gigantic airports may not justify the operation of a much-reduced air-travel fleet. Railroads are far more energy efficient than cars, trucks or airplanes, and they can be run on anything from wood to electricity. The rail-bed infrastructure is also far more economical to maintain than our highway network.


The successful regions in the twenty-first century will be the ones surrounded by viable farming hinterlands that can reconstitute locally sustainable economies on an armature of civic cohesion. Small towns and smaller cities have better prospects than the big cities, which will probably have to contract substantially. The process will be painful and tumultuous. In many American cities, such as Cleveland, Detroit and St. Louis, that process is already well advanced. Others have further to fall. New York and Chicago face extraordinary difficulties, being oversupplied with gigantic buildings out of scale with the reality of declining energy supplies. Their former agricultural hinterlands have long been paved over. They will be encysted in a surrounding fabric of necrotic suburbia that will only amplify and reinforce the cities' problems. Still, our cities occupy important sites. Some kind of urban entities will exist where they are in the future, but probably not the colossi of twentieth-century industrialism.


Some regions of the country will do better than others in the Long Emergency. The Southwest will suffer in proportion to the degree that it prospered during the cheap-oil blowout of the late twentieth century. I predict that Sunbelt states like Arizona and Nevada will become significantly depopulated, since the region will be short of water as well as gasoline and natural gas. Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning.


I'm not optimistic about the Southeast, either, for different reasons. I think it will be subject to substantial levels of violence as the grievances of the formerly middle class boil over and collide with the delusions of Pentecostal Christian extremism. The latent encoded behavior of Southern culture includes an outsized notion of individualism and the belief that firearms ought to be used in the defense of it. This is a poor recipe for civic cohesion.


The Mountain States and Great Plains will face an array of problems, from poor farming potential to water shortages to population loss. The Pacific Northwest, New England and the Upper Midwest have somewhat better prospects. I regard them as less likely to fall into lawlessness, anarchy or despotism and more likely to salvage the bits and pieces of our best social traditions and keep them in operation at some level.


These are daunting and even dreadful prospects. The Long Emergency is going to be a tremendous trauma for the human race. We will not believe that this is happening to us, that 200 years of modernity can be brought to its knees by a world-wide power shortage. The survivors will have to cultivate a religion of hope -- that is, a deep and comprehensive belief that humanity is worth carrying on. If there is any positive side to stark changes coming our way, it may be in the benefits of close communal relations, of having to really work intimately (and physically) with our neighbors, to be part of an enterprise that really matters and to be fully engaged in meaningful social enactments instead of being merely entertained to avoid boredom. Years from now, when we hear singing at all, we will hear ourselves, and we will sing with our whole hearts.


=======

Adapted from The Long Emergency, 2005, by James Howard Kunstler, and reprinted with permission of the publisher, Grove/Atlantic, Inc.
 
sweetie, please dont get angry but i just couldnt read the entire thing. im way too icky and filled with get well drugs.
remember back in the days of Carter when we had days when you could get gas according to your license plate?
also, id love to reccomend the new hybrid cars that run on half electricity and half gas. we have the technology...its just not been let out of the box because of certain politians wishing to line their already buldging coffers.

ok, so if im way off the mark, please ignore. :kiss:
 
Sadly enough, this doesn't surprise me in the least. They have been mentionin this for as long as I remember. Unfortunately very few people can b bothered to listen.

As for the way the United States Government has reacted to, and is reacting to this information, well you have heard the term Bullshit Walks and Money Talks? It's sad that both the B.S. and the Money are one and the same. (They both come from the Big Oil.)

I'm glad I know how to farm and hunt. It looks like this country will be going back to the way it was in the 1800's. Unfortunately there are a lot more people here than there were in that time. It will make things a lot harder, and a lot more violent. (Think the "Duke" meets the "Road Warrior".)

Cat
 
The problem is, what can one person do about any of this? Driving a hybrid vehicle or even a bike won't matter a whit.

These are huge forces at work to create a huge problem that requires a huge solution, something like a declaration of war or national emergency to get our energy house in order.

You just hope they get to work on it before it's too late.

---dr.M.
 
It takes bold moves and long term planning to fix an impending problem like this. And as long as politicians in most of the world's oil-guzzling nationa are too dead beat set on winning the next election, I don't see that it's ever gonna happen. One argument for dictatorship, I guess. :rolleyes:
 
That's what crises produce: dictatorships. I think there's no question we'll see that.
 
Last time i particiapated in a discussion on energy it was very unpleasant so I shall refrine from this one.
 
I don't think it will be a dictatorship. Dictatorships over vast areas are going to require energy.

It's going to be a whole bunch of little dictatorships. Like Afghanistan, or the Congo.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
The problem is, what can one person do about any of this? Driving a hybrid vehicle or even a bike won't matter a whit.

These are huge forces at work to create a huge problem that requires a huge solution, something like a declaration of war or national emergency to get our energy house in order.

You just hope they get to work on it before it's too late.

---dr.M.
my first inclination is to agree...because what you say holds much merit. however, i cant see how driving an SUV with a 40 gal gas tank would help anything. yes, its baby steps but...look what some states have done with recycling. ok... admittedly, a baby step but i do believe being conscience (ohgodicantspell worth shittonight) can help even if just a wee bit.
 
The US could make a start by taxing gas (UK petrol) for transport as most European countries do - to make people aware that it is a scarce resource, and to raise funds for renewables. OK, most of the tax goes straight into the government's main funds, but they are encouraging renewables and have signed up to produce increasing amounts of energy by 'green' methods - hydro-electricity, wind power, tide and wave power.

The high cost of gas for cars has now nearly reached or passed what was considered the psychological barrier of four pounds per imperial gallon. As we now buy gas in litres it hasn't been so obvious as it would have been. Soon it will cost one pound per litre. Will people notice then?

More and more small cars are being sold in Europe. The French have a tax system that encourages micro-cars with engines under 500cc and mopeds. Our small cars are small. The Smart car seems like a kids' toy. 50 or even 60 miles per gallon is possible with many current cars.

The high-speed train network (TGV) that is being extended across Europe is the way of the future. It is electrically powered, that electricity can be produced by nuclear or hydro-electric methods, and it gets hundreds of people from city centre to city centre in comfort. On many journeys it is actually faster city centre to city centre than by air because it avoids the transfers to out of town airports. There is much more leg room in the basic class than in the economy areas of aircraft. Last, but not least, there is no pollution as a train passes. Even the noise isn't excessive.

Europe has signed up to reducing our use of fossil fuels. The US administration needs to do the same or the scenario that started this thread will become more likely.

Og
 
The oil suppliers and motor industries don't have the same hold over the
government as they do in the US
85pence per litre and rising
 
Og
that would be wonderful. maybe one day, when alaska is stripped of all its natural beauty and there isnt an oil streaked hand in the oval office, this might just be an option. hell, maybe when we run out of options...someone might actually 'do' something about it.

we do not have good public transportation set up here. in some cities its better but in the more rural of states, its just not done. i would love to take a train/metro/bus to work but there is nothing that even remotely comes close.
we are taxed on gas. .. i cant think of much we arent taxed on, including the air we breathe.

this mind-set is disturbing to say the least. i do not blame it all squarely on the 'dirty politicians' but spread that around equally on those who have the mind set that its a temporary getch. "Land of plenty" and all that crap has wheeled its way into nearly all americans.
so, ill do what i can to make it a bit better... a drop in the proverbial oil drum...if more people did this, it might actually matter.
 
vella_ms said:
we are taxed on gas. ..
But honestly, not very much.

If I calculated right, a gallon costs $5.46 here. Most of that is taxes.

Oen problem with the European system have long been that the problem it's trying to fix is not the oil shortage, but the CO2 pollution. Which isn't a bad initiative in itself, but the time table of an impending energy shortage have not been taken into account as much as it should have been. At the saem time as we try to tax oil and coal energyout of the market, we are set on reducing the energy explotaion or rivers and the nuclear power facilities. All good ideas, seperately, but since energy householding and alternative sources doesn't get the attention it needs even here, all that is happening is that the deadline creeps closer.

Anyway, I digress. ALternatives for fossil fuel in cars is nothing exoic. Hydrogen cars and battery hybrid cars traffic the streets already and etanol have been around as an alternative for decades. The problem is that forcing the development of anything is a pretty lousy idea. The transition must start in the open market. A massive demand from the consumers for a different product would produce such a beast. Taxing the hell out of the gas prices would be one thing, but really offering a serious alternative is more inmportant. The reson we don't all drive in hydrogen cars is simple: Where the hell would you buy the fuel? Your local gas station sure don't have any.

Simple consumer behavior strategy. Herd them into a corner and show them a comfortable way out.

#L
 
Liar, handsome, i agree with you.
we do have the technology but when you have someone... or many someones in power positions with their collective hands in making money from oil, they make it as difficult as possible for the technology to be affordable/available. conspiracy theory? possibly, but i dont doubt it at all.
i did see a program the other day where they offer of a car that runs almost solely on hydro power. The of adding the proper 'tanks' (for lack of better phrasing) is nearly overwhelming simplicity. Why havent we moved to this? and i believe that the simple statement i made above, might be about the closest answer. too many people are making money with the current situation...something that is not likely to change until we 'run out'...its a horrid statement about american mentality and our willingness to just let ourselves be fucked over. it saddens me.
 
vella_ms said:
i did see a program the other day where they offer of a car that runs almost solely on hydro power. The of adding the proper 'tanks' (for lack of better phrasing) is nearly overwhelming simplicity. Why havent we moved to this?
Because, as I said. The car itself can be as marvellous as it likes, but as long as you have to drive an extra ten miles to buy the fuel, people won't bother. When an affordabe alternative comes along that will maintain the quality of life for the consumer, they will migrate.
vella_ms said:
and i believe that the simple statement i made above, might be about the closest answer. too many people are making money with the current situation...something that is not likely to change until we 'run out'...its a horrid statement about american mentality and our willingness to just let ourselves be fucked over. it saddens me.
And here is where the conspiracy kicks in imo. It takes a political of massive corporate ncentive to make the hydrogen widely available before anyone will buy a hyrogen car. Something which noone with the resources are willing to do because of the jedi mind trick that the oil industry is practicing of the legislators and the rst of the corporate world. I mean hell, it's the same thing here but just not as bad. Noone dares to take the bold step because it's a very expenive one to take.
 
vella_ms said:
Liar, handsome, i agree with you.
we do have the technology but when you have someone... or many someones in power positions with their collective hands in making money from oil, they make it as difficult as possible for the technology to be affordable/available. conspiracy theory? possibly, but i dont doubt it at all.
i did see a program the other day where they offer of a car that runs almost solely on hydro power. The of adding the proper 'tanks' (for lack of better phrasing) is nearly overwhelming simplicity. Why havent we moved to this? and i believe that the simple statement i made above, might be about the closest answer. too many people are making money with the current situation...something that is not likely to change until we 'run out'...its a horrid statement about american mentality and our willingness to just let ourselves be fucked over. it saddens me.

Vella, I have to say that the hydrogen car is a myth. Yes, a car that runs from hydrogen fuel cells will produce nothing but water as a by-product and will be effectively unpolluting. What people are missing is that in order to have hydrogen to fuel the car, it will need to be generated via fossil fuels or nuclear power, both with their attendant problems.

I have no faith in the US. "Kyoto treaty be damned, we can't force our people to drive economical cars. Who cares whether we're causing acid rain in Norway. It's damned Commie talk to think about nations other than us."

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
Vella, I have to say that the hydrogen car is a myth. Yes, a car that runs from hydrogen fuel cells will produce nothing but water as a by-product and will be effectively unpolluting. What people are missing is that in order to have hydrogen to fuel the car, it will need to be generated via fossil fuels or nuclear power, both with their attendant problems.
Hydrogen fuel isn't perfect. But it is a) already better on an envromental net level than petrol, and b) a technology which refining process can be developed and made highly moer efficient, provided resources, much more so than fossil fuels can. So no, it ain't the second coming, but at least it's something. Not good, but less bad.
 
simply put, i have no idea other than doing what i can on my level to make even the smallest dent. and while i may be way off on my 'conspiracy theory' (and i dont believe that i am) you can not say that the entire american thought process is the same, Earl love.
i do have faith that when we run out of oil options, we will turn to something like the hydo car. america is simply too huge to impliment mass transit...but...who knows what the future will bring.
im just asimple person with simple ideas. and i do not believe that 'taxing' is the answer, however, i can not supply an articulate or resonable answer.
all i can suggest is that we all take a part in doing whatever it is, no matter how small and insignificant it seems.

v~
 
vella_ms said:
simply put, i have no idea other than doing what i can on my level to make even the smallest dent. and while i may be way off on my 'conspiracy theory' (and i dont believe that i am) you can not say that the entire american thought process is the same, Earl love.
i do have faith that when we run out of oil options, we will turn to something like the hydo car. america is simply too huge to impliment mass transit...but...who knows what the future will bring.
im just asimple person with simple ideas. and i do not believe that 'taxing' is the answer, however, i can not supply an articulate or resonable answer.
all i can suggest is that we all take a part in doing whatever it is, no matter how small and insignificant it seems.

v~

:rose: At its basest level, love, that's all ANY of us can do.
 
vella_ms said:
all i can suggest is that we all take a part in doing whatever it is, no matter how small and insignificant it seems.

v~

Hear hear.

The Earl
 
BigAndTall said:
Last time i particiapated in a discussion on energy it was very unpleasant so I shall refrine from this one.
I'm soory about that, Big.

I was stung by your dismissal of alternatives, and overreacted in an emotional way.

humbly

cantdog
 
oggbashan said:
The US could make a start by taxing gas (UK petrol) for transport as most European countries do - to make people aware that it is a scarce resource, and to raise funds for renewables. OK, most of the tax goes straight into the government's main funds, but they are encouraging renewables and have signed up to produce increasing amounts of energy by 'green' methods - hydro-electricity, wind power, tide and wave power.

The high cost of gas for cars has now nearly reached or passed what was considered the psychological barrier of four pounds per imperial gallon. As we now buy gas in litres it hasn't been so obvious as it would have been. Soon it will cost one pound per litre. Will people notice then?

More and more small cars are being sold in Europe. The French have a tax system that encourages micro-cars with engines under 500cc and mopeds. Our small cars are small. The Smart car seems like a kids' toy. 50 or even 60 miles per gallon is possible with many current cars.

The high-speed train network (TGV) that is being extended across Europe is the way of the future. It is electrically powered, that electricity can be produced by nuclear or hydro-electric methods, and it gets hundreds of people from city centre to city centre in comfort. On many journeys it is actually faster city centre to city centre than by air because it avoids the transfers to out of town airports. There is much more leg room in the basic class than in the economy areas of aircraft. Last, but not least, there is no pollution as a train passes. Even the noise isn't excessive.

Europe has signed up to reducing our use of fossil fuels. The US administration needs to do the same or the scenario that started this thread will become more likely.

Og


kendo1 said:
The oil suppliers and motor industries don't have the same hold over the
government as they do in the US
85pence per litre and rising
I've been in those trains, and I believe a thinking man would have to agree. The experience of using them would convince any reflective person that trains like that are a major part of the solution.

Like Hydrogen-cells, like wind power, with so many of the alternative proposals, the actual energy you get is always electric. Electricity will be available by the use of these systems. Working on electric transport therefore makes the most sense. Mass transport systems-- the trains. Private and individual transport-- fuel cells or something similar.

In rural areas, where workhorse machines are needed which can operate far from these networks, internal combustion will still be required. But there has been a breakthrough in this area lately, with the biodiesel systems. Europeans are against biodiesel, and turn up their noses at the idea of a truck or tractor with smells like a badly cleaned potato fryer; but in Utah or Colorado, or in the woods of Québec, such a machine, which doesn't need to be plugged into something or have its fuel cells swapped out every few hours, will answer the need much better. Biodiesel and alcohol fuels are very well understood technology, and they are now potentially far cheaper.

They can only get cheaper and cheaper as petroleum becomes more expensive. But there are no tanks in the ground full of alcohols and biodiesels, only petrol tanks. Initial investment is a deterrent. Working systems like this are all local, many co-op.
 
for all his interesting facts (some well known) the author seems to be oriented toward 'converting' or 'alarming' people, sort of like and evangelical minister talking about increasing and rampant fornication.

all readers can do, is say 'well, I'll stop [or cut back]'.

The author ignores some answers that already exist: I've heard some Chines cities produce about a third of the food they need. That's unheard of in, say, Chicago or Los Angeles.

The author seem to ignore the price mechanisms that will inevitably kick in: the price of gas will skyrocket; cars will be very expensive. Even now the numbers do not really favor mass transit (electric trains). You hear all the time 'it's cheaper to drive.' The suburbs still make sense to lots of people, since the prices are hidden or subsidized.

There is one theorist of future cities whose name I forget, that has called for *more density, incredible density.* building that hold tens of thousands of people. that helps with energy consumption compared to spreading these people out over 100 sq miles.

In all the author, while mostly accurate and rightfully worried, seems not to appeal to self interest and government interests and corporate interests, but rather to individual 'moral conversion'--- which is a real weakness of the piece.
 
The successful regions in the twenty-first century will be the ones surrounded by viable farming hinterlands that can reconstitute locally sustainable economies on an armature of civic cohesion.
--Thank the Gods that I live in a town that, while it has a university, is essentially still in its long-term residential statistics made up of farmers. :)
 
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