The Libby Pardon (Bush: Should he or shouldn't he).

[elsol]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19058717/

I think this is my first political thread.

For myself, I hope Bush does it for a couple of reasons.

1. Would do some interesting things to the political landscape if he did so.

2. I hate the whole political falling on the sword thing... I don't respect any man who doesn't stand by his bud, good or bad. If you're not going to stand by your boy, then you better fucking admit he committed an egregious crime.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19058717/

I think this is my first political thread.

For myself, I hope Bush does it for a couple of reasons.

1. Would do some interesting things to the political landscape if he did so.

2. I hate the whole political falling on the sword thing... I don't respect any man who doesn't stand by his bud, good or bad. If you're not going to stand by your boy, then you better fucking admit he committed an egregious crime.

I hope he pardons him because

(1) Yes, it wasn't Libby's fault... not entirely... and taking the hard fall for his level of involvement is a little unprecidented.
(2) It will polarize people a little more... this aquiescence (sp?) to the status quo is horrible for the country.
(3) It will draw attention to corruption on both sides of the aisle.

Libby serving time doesn't, in my opinion, actually /do/ anything positive or negative for the country. The issue seems to be the whole trial and whatnot, itself, not so much the punishment.

 

[rgraham666]

The Bush White House undoubtedly has a stack of pardons about the size of Lord Of The Rings or maybe The King James Bible. What difference does one more name make?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, I certainly hope he does!

 

[S-Des]

I wasn't there, didn't hear the evidence, or the sincerity (or lack thereof) of the witnesses. Several jurors came on TV and expressed sympathy for him, saying they felt he was guilty but that he didn't deserve time. At least 2 said they hoped Bush would pardon him. I wish Fitzgerald had found something strong enough to get someone else as well (or something more substantial against Libby), but he didn't. With what he was charged with, the sentence seems pretty out of line. So Bush should pardon him, take his lumps from people who disagree, and go on with his life.

 

[shereads]

I get little satisfaction from seeing the scapegoat go to jail. But I'd get even less from a continuation of the Zero Accountability pattern that is a hallmark of this administration.

I guess I feel a bit like I did about Lynsey Englund: she's no innocent, but neither is she the person most culpable for the crime.

What's needed here is an audience-participation TV reality program, in which the culprits are lined up according to rank, and ordinary people decide which one will take the rap.

 

[rgraham666]

What I find most amusing is that one of the main thrusts of the Bush White House is their "We'll ferret out evildoers and punish them where ever they hide" stance.

Now they've made it very clear that there's a caveat there. "Unless it's one of our evil doers. It's all right then."

Humans.

 

[shereads]

By the way, Elsol, there needs to be a third option. Two years in White Collar Prison isn't my idea of a good time, but it's lightyears from hanging. Ask Martha Stewart.

 

[elsol]

By the way, Elsol, there needs to be a third option. Two years in White Collar Prison isn't my idea of a good time, but it's lightyears from hanging. Ask Martha Stewart.

Nope.

This is a political hanging and the boy is looking towards Bushie and Co. thinking "These mofos are going to leave me hanging!"

Seriously, if I were a part of the Bush and Co. team, I'd be photocopying documents right about now. As soon as someone came knocking on my door, I'd be like "If you got my immunity papers, I got a barrel for you."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Nope.

This is a political hanging and the boy is looking towards Bushie and Co. thinking "These mofos are going to leave me hanging!"

Seriously, if I were a part of the Bush and Co. team, I'd be photocopying documents right about now. As soon as someone came knocking on my door, I'd be like "If you got my immunity papers, I got a barrel for you."

And making three sets and hiding them in different parts of the globe!

 

[Pure]

i hope he's pardoned, with effusive praises from Bush and Cheney. something to underscore the utter corruption and lack of accountability of the present team.

with the iraq 'surge' and Libby pardon, and a few other nails in the coffin, like the immigration bill, the Repugs should be in for some time in the outback.

 

[Carnevil9]

i hope he's pardoned, with effusive praises from Bush and Cheney. something to underscore the utter corruption and lack of accountability of the present team.......

He would have a way to go to match the 140 pardons that Clinton issued on his last day in office......Carney

Official list from the Department of Justice:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

 

[Guest]

He would have a way to go to match the 140 pardons that Clinton issued on his last day in office......Carney

Official list from the Department of Justice:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

But how many were members of his own administration, breaking the law for the boss' advantage?

And remember, George Bush I pardoned Iran Contra participants. That's the precedent you should be considering.

 

[Carnevil9]

.....And remember, George Bush I pardoned Iran Contra participants. That's the precedent you should be considering.

If that's as far back as you are going to look for precedents, you are missing quite a few.....Carney

 

[Stella_Omega]

If that's as far back as you are going to look for precedents, you are missing quite a few.....Carney

Well, there's Ford pardoning Nixon...

 

[3113]

He would have a way to go to match the 140 pardons that Clinton issued on his last day in office......Carney

This is a rather bad and ridiculous logically fallacy called: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

In short, are you saying that because Clinton pardoned 140 folk of whatever wrongs, that Bush should be allowed to do the same without us uttering a single word of criticism?

Clinton's wrongs don't make Bush's wrongs right. It's also disingenuous of you, not to mention tiresome, to try and distract or derail this discussion by dragging Clinton in and using him for another logical fallacy: lack of proportion.

This is where you point to something else that *seems* larger and more important to distract folk from looking at something that is large and important but that you'd rather they not examine. Which, to me, is exactly what you seem to be doing

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

This is a rather bad and ridiculous logically fallacy called: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

In short, are you saying that because Clinton pardoned 140 folk of whatever wrongs, that Bush should be allowed to do the same without us uttering a single word of criticism?

Clinton's wrongs don't make Bush's wrongs right. It's also disingenuous of you, not to mention tiresome, to try and distract or derail this discussion by dragging Clinton in and using him for another logical fallacy: lack of proportion.

This is where you point to something else that *seems* larger and more important to distract folk from looking at something that is large and important but that you'd rather they not examine. Which, to me, is exactly what you seem to be doing

"Lack of proportion" isn't really appropriate, here--I get your point and yes, its fallacious to bring up Clinton as a response to what Bush should do.

Just... y'know... sayin'.

/logician

 

[Carnevil9]

This is a rather bad and ridiculous logically fallacy called: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

In short, are you saying that because Clinton pardoned 140 folk of whatever wrongs, that Bush should be allowed to do the same without us uttering a single word of criticism?

I never, ever said that, and I'll thank you for not implying that I did.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

The man committed a crime. I'm not going to hope that he gets pardoned, no matter how politically useful that might be.

 

[Boxlicker101]

But how many were members of his own administration, breaking the law for the boss' advantage?

And remember, George Bush I pardoned Iran Contra participants. That's the precedent you should be considering.

As I recall, most of them just paid for the pardons. Sometimes it was by donations to the DNC and sometimes it was probably direct to Bill or Hillary Clinton.

As for the pardons issued by Bush Sr., assuming they were for convictions under the Bolen Act, that is bad law, and probably unconstitutional.

As for Ford's pardon of Nixon, it was probably a good thing, both at the time and in the long run. Remember, there had never been any actual convictions or even indictments at the time. The Dems, smelling blood in the water and goaded by the news media, probably would have gone after whatever they could have gotten, thereby further dividing the country. The pardon put an end to a very divisive time, rather than let it get worse. Personally, I have my doubts there would have been any convictions anyhow.

 

[rgraham666]

Carne, etc. You can't have it both ways. If it's wrong for Clinton to give presidential pardons to law breakers for what ever reason, it's wrong for Bush. If it's all right for Bush, it was all right for Clinton.

Unless you agree with the idea that politics trumps justice. Do you?

 

[3113]

I never, ever said that, and I'll thank you for not implying that I did.

I asked "In short, are you saying that because Clinton pardoned 140 folk of whatever wrongs, that Bush should be allowed to do the same without us uttering a single word of criticism?"

If you're not, you can just say "no." Taking offence to the question isn't going to stop me from asking it.

 

[alltherage]

Bush probably will but for me Libby represents all the freaking lies these guys have told since day one. At least one of them got caught and was held to account.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think Bush should pardon Paris Hilton. That poor sexy woman is doing me no good in prison right now. And she's a scapegoat for... stuff. And pretty people don't deserve jail time.

Lock up... I dunno... the "Honey-bunny" chick from Pulp Fiction instead.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

As I recall, most of them just paid for the pardons. Sometimes it was by donations to the DNC and sometimes it was probably direct to Bill or Hillary Clinton.

As for the pardons issued by Bush Sr., assuming they were for convictions under the Bolen Act, that is bad law, and probably unconstitutional.

Most of the pardons were bought and paid for, but Clinton's pardon of J. Fife Syminton, the conservative Republican Governor of Arizona, was due to a personal incident: Symington once saved Clinton's life from drowning.

As for the pardons under Iran-Contra and the Nixon deal, as bad as Watergate and Iran-Contra were, I think that the pardons were valid because the Independent Counsel Act was unconstitutional. Any convictions under it, whether Whitewater, Lewinsky-related, Travelgate, Watergate, or Iran-Contra, were "fruit of the poisonous tree". Which is why the impeachment of Clinton was so completely contrary to the purpose of the process of impeachment, not counting the raw partisanship of the impeachment team itself.

One of the worst things about Ken Starr is that he held an office that he himself believed to be illegal in the first place, just to get Clinton. Pure hypocrisy. I oppose the Independent Counsel Act, and thus disapprove of all of the partisan prosecutors that have operated under its auspices. Its intent might have been sincere, but it has opened a can of worms that has seriously harmed the institutions of our federal, constitutional republic.