The Last of Us - Ep 3

[EmilyMiller]

Not really writing related per se, maybe screenwriting (though maybe in the GM category).

I’ve read several reviews saying that this episode was one of the finest moments in TV in the last decade. Now allowing for hype, did I miss something?

Sure, Ron Swanson finding he is actually gay late in life is poignant. And seeing the second death of the hotel manager from White Lotus Season 1 was much better than the first.

But best TV in the last 10 years? Really?

It seemed like rather a slow way for Joel and Ellie to get a power up.

Let’s get Pedro back in the helmet ASAP.

For the avoidance of doubt, not being homophobic. I’m bi and my best friend is gay.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Slight caveat. We did watch part of it last night and the rest just now. Perhaps that didn’t help.

Em

 

[Thefireflies]

Sure, Ron Swanson finding he is actually gay late in life is poignant.

It seemed like rather a slow way for Joel and Ellie to get a power up.

I think Bill (Ron Swanson) had been in the closet all his life, hadn't he, previously living with his maybe conservative mother until her death well into his adulthood? It was her house and piano. Generally he avoided people, but the outbreak gave him new opportunities, because he was already a prepper and conspiracy theorist. But also, when Frank came along, he was finally able to explore the side of him he'd kept repressed all those years. That's my take on it, anyhow, I don't know if I'm right or not, but it's just how I analysed it.

I do think that, as slow as the episode was, they could have developed Bill and Frank's connection and romance even slower, because they kind of became a couple within a few hours of the first day they met, which seems a little fast for someone such as Bill, who already doesn't trust people in general, and who has only likely had mostly negative experiences or thoughts with people around his sexuality (hiding it from his parents perhaps), and he admitted he had no previous experience with men. Thus, despite his need and desire for human intimacy, I feel it was out of character for him to rush into his relationship with Frank.

I agree on your take on the episode, that it was a little long winded for Joel and Ellie to get the car. Again, writing wise, I feel they could have done something like show Tess and Frank forming their friendship over the radio, Bill and Joel not trusting one another when they finally meet, but coming to accept that their respective partners were friends and that wasn't going to change. Then, if I were the writer, I'd have put Bill and Joel into a situation fighting a hoard of infected, (including a bloater in the school gym maybe), where they learn survival techniques from one another (like in the game), and develop genuine respect and trust in a natural way. To me this would have made the episode more meaningful, story wise. But, I suppose they have to edit things down and fit the show into a certain time frame etc, and they made writers choices, and it was not bad.
But was was it the best tv in 10 years? Well that's entirely subjective!

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation to the Fireflies what-so-ever !

 

[Thefireflies]

Funny, I forgot Bill's actor was Nick Offerman and fully accepted he was indeed Ron Swanson without second thoughts!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation to the Fireflies what-so-ever !

Speaking of Firelfly, Pedro does sound rather Mal-esque at times in TLOU. Perhaps he wears a floral bonnet in a later episode?

Does Mando ever say he is going to end someone? Costume designer: Shawna Trpcic, so incestuous.

Em

 

[eric_erosfan]

Not really writing related per se, maybe screenwriting (though maybe in the GM category).

I’ve read several reviews saying that this episode was one of the finest moments in TV in the last decade. Now allowing for hype, did I miss something?

Sure, Ron Swanson finding he is actually gay late in life is poignant. And seeing the second death of the hotel manager from White Lotus Season 1 was much better than the first.

But best TV in the last 10 years? Really?

It seemed like rather a slow way for Joel and Ellie to get a power up.

Let’s get Pedro back in the helmet ASAP.

For the avoidance of doubt, not being homophobic. I’m bi and my best friend is gay.

Em

I loved this episode. I think it was one of the finest depictions of human love regardless of sexual orientation. I really felt that I knew this couple and felt the love was genuine. And one of the actors is not even gay. So expect that guest actor Emmy to be locked up.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I loved this episode. I think it was one of the finest depictions of human love regardless of sexual orientation. I really felt that I knew this couple and felt the love was genuine. And one of the actors is not even gay. So expect that guest actor Emmy to be locked up.

Maybe it’s just me then. I didn’t feel much, I didn’t tear up at the suicide pact. I just thought, what has this got to do with forwarding the plot.

As for the finest depictions of human love, watch Crash Landing On You. That I did tear up to, multiple times.

Em

 

[eric_erosfan]

Maybe it’s just me then. I didn’t feel much, I didn’t tear up at the suicide pact. I just thought, what has this got to do with forwarding the plot.

As for the finest depictions of human love, watch Crash Landing On You. That I did tear up to, multiple times.

Em

I agree I am not sure what it had to do with the plot, besides leaving the truck and supplies for Joel. But I was happy to have seen that sidebar. I welcome any opportunity to introduce other people that human love is human love. When you have loved ones that relate to this you become a changed human being. I will have to check out Crash Landing On You. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Thefireflies]

I just thought, what has this got to do with forwarding the plot.

Same, I agree. But then again, I also like the idea that not everything in a story has to keep the plot moving along. However, like I said above, I think they could have developed things a bit better, given what we know about the characters, Bill in particular. I suppose many authors here would say some of their stories came from their desire to develop a minor or secondary character in another story, and I suspect the writers of The Last of Us tv show wanted to expand on and change Bill and Frank's story from the game (Frank is such an minor character in the game where he is barely noticed at all, being a suicide victim hanging from the rafters in the house where the car is stored. He was in the process of running from Bill, whose attitudes and behaviour have driven him away).

Bill and Ellie interact in the game, and we missed this in the show, which is somewhat unfortunate since Bill is gruff and distrustful and Ellie regularly baits him. Plus, they didn't show her steal his porno mag in the tv show, she just produces it in the car. In the game Bill tells her not to touch any of his stuff, which of course results in her touching all his stuff.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I was thinking about this. In The Fellowship of the Ring, some people say that the Tom Bombadil / Goldberey interlude is superfluous. It doesn’t advance the plot and there is not a lot the hobbits learn during it. I guess that’s why it gets left out of any dramaization. However, some people are fond of it .

But, I don’t think that’s comparable to TLOS episode 3. To scale the length of the TV to that of the book, it was as if Tolkien broke off to have three chapters devoted to Bombadil’s backstory, before getting back to the journey to Rivendale.

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I was thinking about this. In The Fellowship of the Ring, some people say that the Tom Bombadil / Goldberey interlude is superfluous. It doesn’t advance the plot and there is not a lot the hobbits learn during it. I guess that’s why it gets left out of any dramaization. However, some people are fond of it .

But, I don’t think that’s comparable to TLOS episode 3. To scale the length of the TV to that of the book, it was as if Tolkien broke off to have three chapters devoted to Bombadil’s backstory, before getting back to the journey to Rivendale.

Em

Bombadil's interlude was great in many ways. For me, it is mostly a symbol of an oasis of happiness, while all the world is going to war and destruction. In a sense, it is what many of us do in our own lives, creating a circle of family and close friends and distancing ourselves from all the shit of the wider world - all its wars, injustice and hate.
The only mistake Tolkien made was not writing his backstory in Silmarillion. It would be easy to write about one lone Maia, who decided to distance himself from the wars between Morgoth and the rest of the Valar.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not really writing related per se, maybe screenwriting (though maybe in the GM category).

I’ve read several reviews saying that this episode was one of the finest moments in TV in the last decade. Now allowing for hype, did I miss something?

Sure, Ron Swanson finding he is actually gay late in life is poignant. And seeing the second death of the hotel manager from White Lotus Season 1 was much better than the first.

But best TV in the last 10 years? Really?

It seemed like rather a slow way for Joel and Ellie to get a power up.

Let’s get Pedro back in the helmet ASAP.

For the avoidance of doubt, not being homophobic. I’m bi and my best friend is gay.

Em

That's the woke acting like this is the first time gay characters existed. The hilarious thing was the same week that episode aired, there were two men kissing on the Winchesters on the CW. So yeah....

Now the lesbian kiss on the Roseanne show? That was a big moment in regular TV because of the era it aired in.

Last of us in general is okay, but I'm kind of zombied out these days and never played the video game so its appeal isn't that strong to me, but it had its moments.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That's the woke acting like this is the first time gay characters existed. The hilarious thing was the same week that episode aired, there were two men kissing on the Winchesters on the CW. So yeah....

Now the lesbian kiss on the Roseanne show? That was a big moment in regular TV because of the era it aired in.

Last of us in general is okay, but I'm kind of zombied out these days and never played the video game so its appeal isn't that strong to me, but it had its moments.

I like Pedro (OK I really like Pedro) but TLOU seems unnecessarily slow. It’s Prestige Zombie.

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

Bombadil's interlude was great in many ways. For me, it is mostly a symbol of an oasis of happiness, while all the world is going to war and destruction. In a sense, it is what many of us do in our own lives, creating a circle of family and close friends and distancing ourselves from all the shit of the wider world - all its wars, injustice and hate.
The only mistake Tolkien made was not writing his backstory in Silmarillion. It would be easy to write about one lone Maia, who decided to distance himself from the wars between Morgoth and the rest of the Valar.

I always thought the Bombadil episode (or diversion) in LOTR was odd. It wasn't clear what purpose it served. We never really understand who he is or how he's connected to everything else. They talk about him a bit at the Council of Elrond but if I recall Elrond says he'd forgotten about him! Which seems unlikely given his unique status and powers.

In the parody Bored of the Rings he's renamed "Tim Benzedrine" which seems appropriate.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I always thought the Bombadil episode (or diversion) in LOTR was odd. It wasn't clear what purpose it served. We never really understand who he is or how he's connected to everything else. They talk about him a bit at the Council of Elrond but if I recall Elrond says he'd forgotten about him! Which seems unlikely given his unique status and powers.

In the parody Bored of the Rings he's renamed "Tim Benzedrine" which seems appropriate.

Tolkien had written about him separately and I guess couldn’t resist including him.

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I always thought the Bombadil episode (or diversion) in LOTR was odd. It wasn't clear what purpose it served. We never really understand who he is or how he's connected to everything else. They talk about him a bit at the Council of Elrond but if I recall Elrond says he'd forgotten about him! Which seems unlikely given his unique status and powers.

In the parody Bored of the Rings he's renamed "Tim Benzedrine" which seems appropriate.

Well, there are many things that went unanswered in LotR book trilogy. A good number of them were explained in the Silmarillion, but sadly not all. There were some odd choices and inconsistencies, but I suppose that is to be expected in a work of this scope and depth.

 

[SimonDoom]

Tolkien had written about him separately and I guess couldn’t resist including him.

Em

I totally forgot about that. That makes sense. There are many places in the first half of The Fellowship where the tone and content make it seem like a bridge between the Hobbit, which is more lighthearted and childlike, and the last two volumes of LOTR, which have a darker and heavier feel. The pace of the first part of The Fellowship is rather leisurely compared to the rest.

 

[Inthesewalls]

Literally every episode of this show is about different kinds of love- about human connection even after something terrible. Its not just zombies.

For instance, (without getting too spoiler-y) Episode one- Joel kicks this off for familial love - going to find his brother. Episode 2 - Tess's love for Joel and her sacrifice. Episode 3 Frank and Bill's entire life. Episode 4 - Kathleen's love for her brother Henry. Episode 5- Henry and what he does for Sam. The overarcing fatherly love Joel starts to have for Ellie.

That's from one of the show people I didnt make that up or think of it. Yeah they are following the game premise, but they wanted to highlight that in the stories the game had.

Its not about them being gay. Its about two people who wouldnt have found each other otherwise. Its close to a miracle they were able to find survive. Let alone make a life together full of love in the midst of death and destruction. The indominable human spirit if you will. I mean look at how Frank suprises Bill with strawberries. These beautiful little moments amidst tragedy.

Add to that just Bill(Nick Offerman) is basically the grinch. Living in a cave hating the whos. I mean who was that dude gonna find? If you dont feel like someone telling another human being that they were their purpose is romantic and touching Im not sure what to tell you. I mean if someone looks at you at the end of your life and tells you that how would you feel? We all want to believe the big love exists.

As for woke crap- the game has Bill and Frank as canonically gay( havent played just a fan of the show and have seen the clips from the game.) In the game, Bill finds Franks body with Joel. It doesnt matter that they are gay. Its about two unlikely people finding each other and thriving together during the least likely time for that to happen .

Im sure everyone is rolling their eyes at this point. I dont know if I have articulated it well. And yeah Zombie video game, but they are trying to bring something deeper. Then again Im a sap, a perptually disappointed romantic who liked her escapism to include epic love stories even if there are zombies.

Also Pedro Pascal is awesome. Good thread. Sorry for the long post!

 

[eric_erosfan]

That's the woke acting like this is the first time gay characters existed.

The fuck? Some kind of MAGA who like jacking off to erotica?

 

[Thefireflies]

... Episode one- Joel kicks this off for familial love - going to find his brother. Episode 2 - Tess's love for Joel and her sacrifice. Episode 3 Frank and Bill's entire life. Episode 4 - Kathleen's love for her brother Henry. Episode 5- Henry and what he does for Sam. The overarcing fatherly love Joel starts to have for Ellie.

Because this is a writing forum, I think it's worth discussing the writing of both the game and show, which I personally think is excellent.

Episode 1 is about family, as you say, but you forgot to mention the main character of the episode, Joel's daughter Sarah. The way the TV episode is written starts like the first chapter of the game, from Sarah's point of view. Because we're talking story writing here, Sarah and Joel's relationship is already established, obviously, and we get to find out who Joel is pre-fungus. He's a workaholic single dad who strives but struggles to find balance between providing for his family and making time for his family. But ultimately, his family comes first. And at the time of the disease breakout he puts his family first at any cost, not stopping to help anyone else regardless of their situation, where Sarah is his number one priority, and his brother Tommy too, who can handle himself. This episode, and the starting chapter of the game, sets up how Joel will interact with Ellie in the future. From a writing perspective alone, I think this initial chapter is brilliant, because it's equally about character development and setting up the entire premise of the show, which of course is the cordyceps pandemic.

On Bill and Frank in the game, they had some kind of relationship which was only implied at being homosexual in nature, but game Bill, whose character traits are the same as that of TV Bill at the beginning of the pandemic, does warn Joel not to get attached to Ellie because it could get him killed, and how he became attached to someone once but he's better off alone now. However, he was extremely bitter about it. Later Joel and Ellie discover Frank's hanging body and a suicide note, that Frank was running from Bill and hated him because he couldn't change his belligerent ways. Nothing here suggests they were a couple as such, however, Ellie had stolen one of Bill's magazines which she pulls out in the car once they have left Bill's town, and it's a gay porn mag, playing out much the same as in the TV show. So we can only guess Bill and Frank were a couple in the game. The TV show writers (including Neil Druckman who wrote the game) must have decided to change Bill and Frank's story and add to it, for story writing's sake. It was good, it wasn't bad, but was definitely not perfect by any means (see what I wrote somewhere near the top of this thread).

Note that Kathleen in episode 4 and 5 wasn't in the game, but she was making decisions based on the loss of her brother. Henry is not her brother, but Henry and Sam are brothers, and they all have to make critical decisions to survive. So yes, more writing about love and relationships, and about critical decisions made under the influence of these concepts.

And now in the latter episodes we are seeing the bond between Joel and Ellie has developed to a point where Joel can feel the same or a similar way about Ellie that he did for his daughter Sarah, where he will literally do anything to protect her, at all costs. Which should play out to the end of the series, because I can't see them deviating from the game in that respect. This will set up Joel's decision making, for better or worse at the climax of the series...

Brilliant writing really.

 

[Inthesewalls]

Because this is a writing forum, I think it's worth discussing the writing of both the game and show, which I personally think is excellent.

Episode 1 is about family, as you say, but you forgot to mention the main character of the episode, Joel's daughter Sarah. The way the TV episode is written starts like the first chapter of the game, from Sarah's point of view. Because we're talking story writing here, Sarah and Joel's relationship is already established, obviously, and we get to find out who Joel is pre-fungus. He's a workaholic single dad who strives but struggles to find balance between providing for his family and making time for his family. But ultimately, his family comes first. And at the time of the disease breakout he puts his family first at any cost, not stopping to help anyone else regardless of their situation, where Sarah is his number one priority, and his brother Tommy too, who can handle himself. This episode, and the starting chapter of the game, sets up how Joel will interact with Ellie in the future. From a writing perspective alone, I think this initial chapter is brilliant, because it's equally about character development and setting up the entire premise of the show, which of course is the cordyceps pandemic.

On Bill and Frank in the game, they had some kind of relationship which was only implied at being homosexual in nature, but game Bill, who's character traits are the same as that of TV Bill at the beginning of the pandemic, does warn Joel not to get attached to Ellie because it could get him killed, and how he became attached to someone once but he's better off alone now. However, he was extremely bitter about it. Later Joel and Ellie discover Frank's hanging body and a suicide note, that Frank was running from Bill and hated him because he couldn't change his belligerent ways. Nothing here suggests they were a couple as such, however, Ellie had stolen one of Bill's magazines which she pulls out in the car once they have left Bill's town, and it's a gay porn mag, playing out much the same as in the TV show. So we can only guess Bill and Frank were a couple in the game. The TV show writers (including Neil Druckman who wrote the game) must have decided to change Bill and Frank's story and add to it, for story writing's sake. It was good, it wasn't bad, but was definitely not perfect by any means (see what I wrote somewhere near the top of this thread).

Note that Kathleen in episode 4 and 5 wasn't in the game, but she was making decisions based on the loss of her brother. Henry is not her brother, but Henry and Sam are brothers, and they all have to make critical decisions to survive. So yes, more writing about love and relationships, and about critical decisions made under the influence of these concepts.

And now in the latter episodes we are seeing the bond between Joel and Ellie has developed to a point where Joel can feel the same or a similar way about Ellie that he did for his daughter Sarah, where he will literally do anything to protect her, at all costs. Which should play out to the end of the series, because I can't see them deviating from the game in that respect. This will set up Joel's decision making, for better or worse at the climax of the series...

Brilliant writing really.

Excellent points.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I totally forgot about that. That makes sense. There are many places in the first half of The Fellowship where the tone and content make it seem like a bridge between the Hobbit, which is more lighthearted and childlike, and the last two volumes of LOTR, which have a darker and heavier feel. The pace of the first part of The Fellowship is rather leisurely compared to the rest.

Indeed. While Tolkien was meticulous in his world building, I’m not convinced he planned the plot much in advance. It feels more like he set his characters off on a journey and followed them pen in hand.

Em

 

[Raazor]

Not really writing related per se, maybe screenwriting (though maybe in the GM category).

I’ve read several reviews saying that this episode was one of the finest moments in TV in the last decade. Now allowing for hype, did I miss something?

Sure, Ron Swanson finding he is actually gay late in life is poignant. And seeing the second death of the hotel manager from White Lotus Season 1 was much better than the first.

But best TV in the last 10 years? Really?

It seemed like rather a slow way for Joel and Ellie to get a power up.

Let’s get Pedro back in the helmet ASAP.

For the avoidance of doubt, not being homophobic. I’m bi and my best friend is gay.

Em

Yes. Definitely one of the finest moments in TV in the last - whenever.

Also, ‘my best friend is gay’ is up there with ‘my best friend is black‘. Adding a disclaimer often has the opposite effect.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Yes. Definitely one of the finest moments in TV in the last - whenever.

Also, ‘my best friend is gay’ is up there with ‘my best friend is black‘. Adding a disclaimer often has the opposite effect.

Wow! Aggressive much!

If there was anything whatsoever homophobic in what I wrote, please point it out. I found the episode strange, not the gay relationship; I write stories about gay relationships (albeit female ones). You are jumping at shadows.

Em

 

[eric_erosfan]

Wow! Aggressive much!

If there was anything whatsoever homophobic in what I wrote, please point it out. I found the episode strange, not the gay relationship; I write stories about gay relationships (albeit female ones). You are jumping at shadows.

Em

Funny thing is 20-30 years ago I was homophobic. It is episodes of shows and movies like this over the years that have helped soften my attitudes and understand that human love is love. 20 years ago I might have been here saying what's the big deal. Because secretly I hated it becoming more accepted and being a big deal. So I think if in 2023 you are the one voice saying what's the big deal for an episode that will eventually win an Emmy award it is not surprising that your underlying motives could be questioned even if it wasn't the motive behind your criticism.