The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[DVS]

I mean, seriously...they are killing their own, now. Afghan military is using live bullets in crowd control. I guess I'm missing something. Can't someone make a mistake and say "I'm sorry", without people making such a big deal over it?

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/burning-koran-burning-another-book/732

 

[Vixandra]

It would be nice if an apology would work but I doubt it would.

Same way I imagine a lot of Christians would get up in arms over the burning of Bibles in a rubbish pile. Not sure they'd start a riot over it but I wouldn't put it past many of the zealots. Zealots come in all religious flavors and are rarely rational.

The fact that there were Korans in the burning pile is a gross lapse in sensitivity for one's host country. The service members responsible should have known better but without knowing more exact details, its hard to say what should have happened to avoid this.


I spent time overseas while in the Air Force but I cannot think of an equivalent act that would so obviously enrage the Japanese people in kind of this fashion. Maybe the TP'ing of a Shinto shrine by uniformed American soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors?


On the shooting aspect- it's NATO-trained local forces shooting their own people. Did they have access to non-lethal crowd suppressants like rubber bullets, tear gas, or pepper spray? If not, why were they sent out after a crowd of protestors? There are more issues here than addressed in that news story gives.

 

[DVS]

It would be nice if an apology would work but I doubt it would.

Same way I imagine a lot of Christians would get up in arms over the burning of Bibles in a rubbish pile. Not sure they'd start a riot over it but I wouldn't put it past many of the zealots. Zealots come in all religious flavors and are rarely rational.

The fact that there were Korans in the burning pile is a gross lapse in sensitivity for one's host country. The service members responsible should have known better but without knowing more exact details, its hard to say what should have happened to avoid this.


I spent time overseas while in the Air Force but I cannot think of an equivalent act that would so obviously enrage the Japanese people in kind of this fashion. Maybe the TP'ing of a Shinto shrine by uniformed American soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors?


On the shooting aspect- it's NATO-trained local forces shooting their own people. Did they have access to non-lethal crowd suppressants like rubber bullets, tear gas, or pepper spray? If not, why were they sent out after a crowd of protestors? There are more issues here than addressed in that news story gives.

An apology has been given, both by the military U.S. general in charge of the serviceman/men involved as well as president Obama. Even their president Karzai has asked for calm.

I understand what you say about religious fanatics all over, and I also understand that destroying a Koran is a very bad thing to do, but it seems everything the west does, even small things tends to cause such unrest in that part of the world. Our military is over there getting killed, trying to keep the Taliban out of the country. Now Afghan people are in the streets chanting "Death to America" and burning the U. S. flag. They are even burning Obama in effigy.

Sure, burning the Koran shouldn't have been done, but these people are hurting their own, some by accident and some not. It's Afghans killing Afghans. I don't know about the training of the Afghan military, but their training doesn't tell them to shoot at unarmed civilians. I know the U.S. military used rubber bullets when the base was threatened.

Burning any book should be a bad thing but I don't think burning the bible would cause whole cities to be up in arms. I don't like when other countries burn our flag, but I know it's just symbolic. You can burn the flag in our own country. It's legal. How many days, weeks, months is this going to go on? I think they've made their point...about a week ago.

What do they expect to accomplish with all of this protesting? The fate of the serviceman who burned the Korans isn't going to be decided by their protests. Personally, I think all of the countries over there are based too much on religion for us to even try to help them. Leave them to their own fates and bring all of our troops back home...for good.

 

[Vixandra]

Forgive me if this doesn't make sense, I'm in the midst of a fibro-fog-flare. That said, here goes.

An apology has been given, both by the military U.S. general in charge of the serviceman/men involved as well as president Obama. Even their president Karzai has asked for calm.

I understand what you say about religious fanatics all over, and I also understand that destroying a Koran is a very bad thing to do, but it seems everything the west does, even small things tends to cause such unrest in that part of the world. Our military is over there getting killed, trying to keep the Taliban out of the country. Now Afghan people are in the streets chanting "Death to America" and burning the U. S. flag. They are even burning Obama in effigy.

Sure, burning the Koran shouldn't have been done, but these people are hurting their own, some by accident and some not. It's Afghans killing Afghans. I don't know about the training of the Afghan military, but their training doesn't tell them to shoot at unarmed civilians. I know the U.S. military used rubber bullets when the base was threatened.

Burning any book should be a bad thing but I don't think burning the bible would cause whole cities to be up in arms. I don't like when other countries burn our flag, but I know it's just symbolic. You can burn the flag in our own country. It's legal. How many days, weeks, months is this going to go on? I think they've made their point...about a week ago.

What do they expect to accomplish with all of this protesting? The fate of the serviceman who burned the Korans isn't going to be decided by their protests. Personally, I think all of the countries over there are based too much on religion for us to even try to help them. Leave them to their own fates and bring all of our troops back home...for good.

Part of the issue in understanding why the burning of a Koran is such a big deal is the vast social difference between Western and Islamic-based cultures. Where a country like the US has a semi-firm separation of church and state (that's a whole 'nother debate), that is not the case in Afghanistan and other countries in that region. Religion plays a much larger part in their society then it does in the Western world. It isn't something observed on Sundays and when trying to force others into conformity there, its a part of every facet of every day.

Like many protests, this is not helping the people protesting achieve their goals. They are only hurting themselves and their country with their actions. The people there have been through a lot of hardship and sometimes its difficult to see beyond that. But to harm your own people instead of the "enemy" isn't productive, its stupid.

Personally, I feel if we are not expanding US territories or aiding our direct allies, we should leave the area alone. The resources and lives that have gone into fixing the problems that the natives didn't try to fix themselves is ridiculous. Add in the sorry state of the American education system and other programs, we shouldn't be dropping money in countries that don't want us there. Pull out, let them hire contractors if they want to but our military shouldn't be policing the world.

From a Washington Post story:

“Afghans and the world’s Muslims should rise against the foreigners. We have no patience left,” said one Afghan police officer in central Kabul who has worked at the same checkpoint since he joined the force seven months ago. He looked at his colleague, who stood next to him, nodding. “We both will attack the foreign military people.”

We should pull out and let them fix their country in their way. No aid, no rebuilding for them, just pull out and leave them the hell alone. If the UN wants to play peacekeeper, let them but stop spending American tax dollars and lives on "fixing" a country that doesn't want our help.

 

[DVS]

Forgive me if this doesn't make sense, I'm in the midst of a fibro-fog-flare. That said, here goes.




Part of the issue in understanding why the burning of a Koran is such a big deal is the vast social difference between Western and Islamic-based cultures. Where a country like the US has a semi-firm separation of church and state (that's a whole 'nother debate), that is not the case in Afghanistan and other countries in that region. Religion plays a much larger part in their society then it does in the Western world. It isn't something observed on Sundays and when trying to force others into conformity there, its a part of every facet of every day.

Like many protests, this is not helping the people protesting achieve their goals. They are only hurting themselves and their country with their actions. The people there have been through a lot of hardship and sometimes its difficult to see beyond that. But to harm your own people instead of the "enemy" isn't productive, its stupid.

Personally, I feel if we are not expanding US territories or aiding our direct allies, we should leave the area alone. The resources and lives that have gone into fixing the problems that the natives didn't try to fix themselves is ridiculous. Add in the sorry state of the American education system and other programs, we shouldn't be dropping money in countries that don't want us there. Pull out, let them hire contractors if they want to but our military shouldn't be policing the world.

From a Washington Post story:


We should pull out and let them fix their country in their way. No aid, no rebuilding for them, just pull out and leave them the hell alone. If the UN wants to play peacekeeper, let them but stop spending American tax dollars and lives on "fixing" a country that doesn't want our help.

Oh, I understand the religious aspect of the area. I've experienced quite a few people from that part of the world I had a room mate in college who was from Pakistan. That was in 1971. He told me many things about the area. That was back when everybody was friends. And working in my field, I've rubbed elbows with a few of the Islamic faith who had to have a spot on company property where they could pray in private.

I know they don't have the same religious separation as we do. That makes it all the more difficult to help them. Once they get on a rant, it never seems to go away...just like this protesting thing. Like you said, it isn't helping them any at all. But, we don't understand their culture enough to be messing around with "fixing" it.

They become so vindictive and vengeful, almost like they are under some Martian mind control. I've read that they aren't the most educated country either, with much of the country very isolated. This makes it easy to influence them...something the Taliban are trying to do now, to gain back the foothold they've lost in the war. I think it might work, too.

 

[Vixandra]

They become so vindictive and vengeful, almost like they are under some Martian mind control. I've read that they aren't the most educated country either, with much of the country very isolated. This makes it easy to influence them...something the Taliban are trying to do now, to gain back the foothold they've lost in the war. I think it might work, too.

The cultural mindset of Afghanistan and other areas in the Middle East is one that leans toward isolationism and extremism, neither of which play well with others.

That's not an effective mindset in this globalized world anymore. But the ham-handed way that diplomacy has been handled with countries with strong Islamic factions has not helped smooth the way any.

I don't see any way through the maze of cultural differences and stigmas Western and Islamic cultures hold for one another, especially when one puts a strain like this one into the mix.

More people will be injured and killed before the dust from this situation settles. Tensions in Afghanistan are building to a boiling point and have been for years. When that pressure cooker goes off, it's going to a mess of lost and ruined lives.

 

[intothewoods]

If a bunch of Muslims burned a bible in this country people would have an absolute shit fit. Hell, just opening a cultural center or mosque near ground zero was enough to get everyone's panties in a bunch.

Many people in the country don't want the U.S. there. I'm not saying the Taliban was a party but the people didn't exactly ask to be invaded. Afghanistan is a fucking disaster. Bin Laden is dead. What the fuck are we doing there anymore?

 

[JMohegan]

Very curious title for this particular thread.

If a bunch of Muslims burned a bible in this country people would have an absolute shit fit. Hell, just opening a cultural center or mosque near ground zero was enough to get everyone's panties in a bunch.

Many people in the country don't want the U.S. there. I'm not saying the Taliban was a party but the people didn't exactly ask to be invaded. Afghanistan is a fucking disaster. Bin Laden is dead. What the fuck are we doing there anymore?

I'd say they collectively did "ask for it," by harboring al-Qaeda. Of course, in retrospect, it would have been a hell of a lot smarter to bomb the fuck out of the bases and come right on home.

As for your question, I don't know.

 

[YourCaptor]

It's not really about the books, they were just the last straw. What you see now is emotion caused by war breaking loose.

 

[intothewoods]

Very curious title for this particular thread.



I'd say they collectively did "ask for it," by harboring al-Qaeda. Of course, in retrospect, it would have been a hell of a lot smarter to bomb the fuck out of the bases and come right on home.

As for your question, I don't know.

Ha, the title is driving me nuts.

Lots of people had nothing to do with, and had no choice in, harboring al quaeda. But that's how war works. My point was more that we didn't go in to that country because we were asked. Of course people don't like us.