The incest/taboo category

[gunhilltrain]

I'll have a story in about a week about a stepmother and her stepson. It occurred to me to put it into Erotic Couplings rather than I/T. I have no idea what the fans of that category prefer in what they read. Maybe non-biological relatives don't belong in that category, or at least don't do as well there?

 

[SimonDoom]

How much do you emphasize the taboo/incest element? My philosophy is that if there's any incest-related angle at all, it should go into Incest/Taboo, because you're guaranteed a much bigger readership there than anywhere else, certainly MUCH larger than in Erotic Couplings. Sure, you'll get some purists who will insist "it's not real incest!" but so what? Use your tags and tagline to indicate that it's step-incest, and nobody will have cause to complain.

Don't pay attention to people who are hung up on the legal/ontological question of whether it's "really" incest. That's irrelevant. The important consideration is finding your readership, and, depending on how you write the story, putting it into Incest/Taboo probably is the best way to do that.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'll have a story in about a week about a stepmother and her stepson. It occurred to me to put it into Erotic Couplings rather than I/T. I have no idea what the fans of that category prefer in what they read. Maybe non-biological relatives don't belong in that category, or at least don't do as well there?

You can pull step mom off in I/T if the step mom has been in the son's life long enough for him to see her as his mother, so it will give an air of taboo.

But if its a case of dad remarried when the son is 17 and he's 19 now and something happens, there's no maternal bond and it won't do that well.

If its the latter example, I'd think about giving it a shot in mature.

 

[cunme69]

Stepmom and stepson is one of my fav incest taboo. pls whatever category I still will follow u!

 

[Rob_Royale]

I did a step-mother-in-law story recently, selected the mature category and Laurel dropped it in I/T. No one has complained that there wasn't actual incest.

 

[RejectReality]

But if its a case of dad remarried when the son is 17 and he's 19 now and something happens, there's no maternal bond and it won't do that well.

If its the latter example, I'd think about giving it a shot in mature.

From experience, it's still going to creep people out in Mature. As to how many? Not enough to have any significant impact on the numbers in my case. Just a couple of squicked comments. Not enough to even consider surrendering the readership difference between EC and Mature for certain.

---

As everybody is saying, it's a matter of degrees. The more there's a familial relationship established, the more you should lean toward I/T. The more you lean into the relationship during the sex ( even if it's established as minimal otherwise ) the more you need to lean toward I/T. Once you get into mommy/son talk in the narrative or dialogue of the sex scene, you're scaring off readers outside I/T in droves.

From what I've seen, Laurel tends toward moving work that has ongoing step/in-law to I/T far more often than when divorce has severed that legal connection.

 

[gunhilltrain]

You can pull step mom off in I/T if the step mom has been in the son's life long enough for him to see her as his mother, so it will give an air of taboo.

But if its a case of dad remarried when the son is 17 and he's 19 now and something happens, there's no maternal bond and it won't do that well.

If its the latter example, I'd think about giving it a shot in mature.

That's kind of borderline. I didn't want to go against the age limits, but you can infer from other details that he was about ten when he met her. He's nineteen by the time the story starts. His dad is a widower, yet I would guess he remembers his real mom fairly well.

She does say, "He never called me “mom” but always by my first name, Marion. That was fine, because I didn’t feel like his mom, but rather like an aunt or favorite teacher or some other role I couldn’t define." She does feel some doubts about seducing her (second) husband's son, but decides to go ahead with it anyway. She's forty-two, which at my age doesn't feel so "mature" any longer.

It's left a bit open-ended, but it seems that their relationship will last for some indefinite period of time. The conversations they have seem to be close to two adults speaking to each other, even if she is more experienced than he is.

P.S.: The tentative title does have the word "mom" in it, which perhaps isn't a good idea.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I did a step-mother-in-law story recently, selected the mature category and Laurel dropped it in I/T. No one has complained that there wasn't actual incest.

Maybe I need more coffee, but isn't a step-mother-in-law just a mother-in-law?

 

[RejectReality]

That's kind of borderline. I didn't want to go against the age limits, but you can infer from other details that he was about ten when he met her. He's nineteen by the time the story starts. His did is a widower, yet I would guess he remembers his real mom fairly well.

She does say, "He never called me “mom” but always by my first name, Marion. That was fine, because I didn’t feel like his mom, but rather like an aunt or favorite teacher or some other role I couldn’t define." She does feel some doubts about seducing her (second) husband's son, but decides to go ahead with it anyway. She's forty-two, which at my age doesn't feel so "mature" any longer.

It's left a bit open-ended, but it seems that their relationship will last for some indefinite period of time. The conversations they have seem to be close to two adults speaking to each other, even if she is more experienced than he is.

19/42 is well within the expectations of the Mature readership for age difference. It's more about the gap than the upper age in the category. If the marriage is still in force, Laurel may very well make the choice for you.

I agree that 10 years is pushing it, even with the qualifications you lay out. The marriage still being in force compounds that, if that's the case.

I'm leaning toward I/T as described. It may not be the preferred coupling there, but you're absolutely moving toward significant squick territory in Mature. It all depends upon how you write it, but the stakes you're putting down for the foundation naturally trend toward a relationship between them that's just a bit to familial for readers outside of I/T.

 

[lovecraft68]

Maybe I need more coffee, but isn't a step-mother-in-law just a mother-in-law?

Even though this happened over ten years ago, its still one of the all time funniest things I've heard...because the person was serious.

I talked about swapping some of my 'real' incest stories into step to be able to pubish them on amazon. I mentioned one to someone that wouldn't work, and he asked why. I told them because they were twins.

He said why not make them step twins and again he was serious.

On some porn sites I see titles like "not his mom has sex with him" and things like step aunt, uncle, step cousin...

 

[gunhilltrain]

How much do you emphasize the taboo/incest element? My philosophy is that if there's any incest-related angle at all, it should go into Incest/Taboo, because you're guaranteed a much bigger readership there than anywhere else, certainly MUCH larger than in Erotic Couplings. Sure, you'll get some purists who will insist "it's not real incest!" but so what? Use your tags and tagline to indicate that it's step-incest, and nobody will have cause to complain.

Don't pay attention to people who are hung up on the legal/ontological question of whether it's "really" incest. That's irrelevant. The important consideration is finding your readership, and, depending on how you write the story, putting it into Incest/Taboo probably is the best way to do that.

Maybe you remember that Nora the dominatrix and her fantasies story earlier this month. (It was in Story Feedback.) That surprised me at how poorly it was received, especially since all the other stories about her did well. She was only in paid sex work for two ten-month periods, but that is often the subject written about. Anyway, the debate was whether it was truly BDSM or instead should have gone into Fetish.

 

[SimonDoom]

Maybe you remember that Nora the dominatrix and her fantasies story earlier this month. (It was in Story Feedback.) That surprised me at how poorly it was received, especially since all the other stories about her did well. She was only in paid sex work for two ten-month periods, but that is often the subject written about. Anyway, the debate was whether it was truly BDSM or instead should have gone into Fetish.

I don't remember it and am not sure what you are referring to. If you are referring to "Nora Works As A Dominatrix," it has a score of 4.63 and 5,300 views, which numbers are higher than for some of the other Nora stories, so I'm not sure what you mean by "poorly received." Regardless, this is apples and oranges, since you're trying to draw a lesson from a completely unrelated story in completely different categories. Both BDSM and Fetish generally receive modest views. The contrast between Incest/Taboo and Erotic Couplings, on the other hand, is dramatic. Incest/Taboo stories get far more views.

 

[lovecraft68]

Maybe you remember that Nora the dominatrix and her fantasies story earlier this month. (It was in Story Feedback.) That surprised me at how poorly it was received, especially since all the other stories about her did well. She was only in paid sex work for two ten-month periods, but that is often the subject written about. Anyway, the debate was whether it was truly BDSM or instead should have gone into Fetish.

Simon's strategy is based strictly on number, numbers and numbers. He'll take a low score providing it was abused by a ton of people.

The other strategy is to put it in the category that would be most receptive to it, even if the readership there is smaller.

I tend to lean towards the latter because I see no need(unless its LW because it's inevitable) to post something in a place that won't react well to it.

Step is hit or miss, some stories do okay, some leave something to be desired. But more likely than not if mom is on the title Laurel is landing it there anyway.

Take mom out of the title and you have a shot at getting it into EC where, yes, less attention, but the readers there are used to seeing all manner of story because the category is a catchall.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Anything to stay out of EC. When the CIA wants to make someone disappear they send them to EC.

Obviously the story has enough elements to qualify for either incest or mature. Incest gets easily the most eyeballs. I'm not going to tell someone what to do but if it were me this is incest all the way.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Maybe I need more coffee, but isn't a step-mother-in-law just a mother-in-law?

To the husband yes, but not to the wife.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I don't remember it and am not sure what you are referring to. If you are referring to "Nora Works As A Dominatrix," it has a score of 4.63 and 5,300 views, which numbers are higher than for some of the other Nora stories, so I'm not sure what you mean by "poorly received." Regardless, this is apples and oranges, since you're trying to draw a lesson from a completely unrelated story in completely different categories. Both BDSM and Fetish generally receive modest views. The contrast between Incest/Taboo and Erotic Couplings, on the other hand, is dramatic. Incest/Taboo stories get far more views.

Actually, it was the sequel to that story and it was called "Fantasies of a Young Dominatrix," posted on March 3rd I think. The only reason I had it on Story Feedback was because it had no votes at all in the first week.

Okay, I do see the points you are making. The only reason I brought this up is because I've rarely thought about categories much and Laurel only changed them once or twice. I've never posted in Incest on this site before, so I need to let this percolate (like coffee?) in my mind for a while. There has been some distinction made here between Incest readers and non-readers, which I know nothing about. Yeah, I see the latest stories in that category have some stepparent or stepsibling (is that even a word?) themes.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Anything to stay out of EC. When the CIA wants to make someone disappear they send them to EC.

Obviously the story has enough elements to qualify for either incest or mature. Incest gets easily the most eyeballs. I'm not going to tell someone what to do but if it were me this is incest all the way.

Thank you. Probably half of my stories are in EC and I've never had a problem with it.

(I mentioned that other site that has straight sex, oral sex, quickie sex, office sex, college sex, strap-on sex, and I've probably missed some. A category for every taste. They also have both Cheating and Wife Lovers. The weirdness of LW here never took hold there.)

 

[gunhilltrain]

Simon's strategy is based strictly on number, numbers and numbers. He'll take a low score providing it was abused by a ton of people.

The other strategy is to put it in the category that would be most receptive to it, even if the readership there is smaller.

I tend to lean towards the latter because I see no need(unless its LW because it's inevitable) to post something in a place that won't react well to it.

Step is hit or miss, some stories do okay, some leave something to be desired. But more likely than not if mom is on the title Laurel is landing it there anyway.

Take mom out of the title and you have a shot at getting it into EC where, yes, less attention, but the readers there are used to seeing all manner of story because the category is a catchall.

Thanks. I don't think I've asked anything about categories in a couple of years, maybe longer than that.

 

[SimonDoom]

Actually, it was the sequel to that story and it was called "Fantasies of a Young Dominatrix," posted on March 3rd I think. The only reason I had it on Story Feedback was because it had no votes at all in the first week.

Okay, I do see the points you are making. The only reason I brought this up is because I've rarely thought about categories much and Laurel only changed them once or twice. I've never posted in Incest on this site before, so I need to let this percolate (like coffee?) in my mind for a while. There has been some distinction made here between Incest readers and non-readers, which I know nothing about. Yeah, I see the latest stories in that category have some stepparent or stepsibling (is that even a word?) themes.

It's totally up to you, and you should think carefully about what you are aiming for. Your priorities are the only ones that matter. I would just caution you against automatically adopting a view that I think is somewhat overemphasized here, which is the view to avoid negativism at all costs. You may disagree, and that's your prerogative, but IMO it's better to post a story where it will get some negativity if it ALSO will get a lot more positivity than to post it someplace where it won't offend but also won't get read.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon's strategy is based strictly on number, numbers and numbers. He'll take a low score providing it was abused by a ton of people.

This is only sort of true.

I've said it before but I'll explain it again, because it seems to confuse people.

Assume you've written your story. It's done. This isn't about "writing for numbers." It's about deciding where to post your story once the story is done.

Post in Category A: You get a score of 4.5 but you also get 100,000 views and 500 favorites. You get some negative feedback.

Post in Category B: You get a score of 4.8 but you get only 10,000 views and 50 favorites. You get little to no negative feedback.

My view is: Always go for the first option. Ignore the negative and focus on the positive. In scenario A, you have succeeded in reaching far more readers who enjoy your story. Who cares about those who don't enjoy your story?

To choose the opposite means that you have fetishized the number score so much that you care about the score more than whether you are actually reaching readers who like your story. I don't understand that point of view.

 

[Rustyoznail]

My first story here was an Uncle/niece/Aunt story. Heyall was kind enough to look at it, and suggested it should go in I/T. It hit 10,000 views in no time flat, and hit a high of 4.68. Before I decided to pull it down, it had over 60,000 views and sat at 4.66 with 651 votes. I wrote two more stories about the same characters and they all did similar.

They actually did better than my twins stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is only sort of true.

I've said it before but I'll explain it again, because it seems to confuse people.

Assume you've written your story. It's done. This isn't about "writing for numbers." It's about deciding where to post your story once the story is done.

Post in Category A: You get a score of 4.5 but you also get 100,000 views and 500 favorites. You get some negative feedback.

Post in Category B: You get a score of 4.8 but you get only 10,000 views and 50 favorites. You get little to no negative feedback.

My view is: Always go for the first option. Ignore the negative and focus on the positive. In scenario A, you have succeeded in reaching far more readers who enjoy your story. Who cares about those who don't enjoy your story?

To choose the opposite means that you have fetishized the number score so much that you care about the score more than whether you are actually reaching readers who like your story. I don't understand that point of view.

Your theory works on paper.

Where it can fall off is the human factor. If the author is on the more thin skinned side, they may choose to take higher score, and lower, but far less abusive feedback. Others, would be fine with taking some shit to get their eyes on the story. Some people can't help but see the negative even among a lot of positive.

Look at the forum, we get a lot of threads about negative feedback and scores, but we know that this site is(unless we're talking LW) is at least 80% positive or more on most stories and the average score I believe-if you removed LW and Samuel X-a bit over four out of five.

But circling back, there are some who can't ignore the nasty even if its not majority. So that's my other side to the strategy and it hinges on the author themselves.

Lifestyle was talking about LW and some story he has that the score is in the mid 3's but he has 251 votes and a bunch of comments, whereas in fetish it would most likely be mid 4 but less votes and other attention.

Is it worth the abuse to pad stats?

Might be for some, and not for others.

 

[RejectReality]

Your theory works on paper.

Where it can fall off is the human factor. If the author is on the more thin skinned side, they may choose to take higher score, and lower, but far less abusive feedback. Others, would be fine with taking some shit to get their eyes on the story. Some people can't help but see the negative even among a lot of positive.

Look at the forum, we get a lot of threads about negative feedback and scores, but we know that this site is(unless we're talking LW) is at least 80% positive or more on most stories and the average score I believe-if you removed LW and Samuel X-a bit over four out of five.

But circling back, there are some who can't ignore the nasty even if its not majority. So that's my other side to the strategy and it hinges on the author themselves.

Lifestyle was talking about LW and some story he has that the score is in the mid 3's but he has 251 votes and a bunch of comments, whereas in fetish it would most likely be mid 4 but less votes and other attention.

Is it worth the abuse to pad stats?

Might be for some, and not for others.

And the bulk of these questions are going to come from newer authors, who are the most likely to be discouraged by trolling.

 

[lovecraft68]

And the bulk of these questions are going to come from newer authors, who are the most likely to be discouraged by trolling.

Exactly, which is why I bring it up in threads like this.

 

[SimonDoom]

Your theory works on paper.

Where it can fall off is the human factor. If the author is on the more thin skinned side, they may choose to take higher score, and lower, but far less abusive feedback.

True. I understand that. Not everyone has a thick skin. But sometimes I think the "you should avoid negative comments at all costs" perspective is so predominant in this forum that it obscures the fact that there's another way to look at it, and new authors, in particular, who are debating where to post their stories, should be aware of another perspective.

Is it worth the abuse to pad stats?

It's not about stats. It's readers. To me, that's what it's all about: connecting with readers. The rest is fluff. I don't make money from this, so my reward is knowing that as many readers as possible read and enjoy what I've written. Views and favorites and comments are far better indicators of whether I have achieved that goal than scores.