The importance of Story over Character

[Brutal_One]

I have been prompted by a valid critique to pose the question if you do not come ‘armed’ with a let’s say decent story should you bother writing at all? Or maybe that is too binary - let’s say you believe you have decent characters but the story is not up to scratch isn’t it better to write?

I think particularly if you intend to have a series then as long as you are creating a semi-believable universe for them to operate in is that okay or sufficient?

I have often seen it posted here that ‘sometimes my characters surprise me’ which I think is a great thing for a writer, it means they have given almost and independent voice or personality that they were not consciously aware of.

I’d hate to shut a potential writer down if it was just a “where’s the story” argument but maybe I am wrong.

Thoughts?

Brutal One

 

[AlinaX]

I've long recognised myself that unless I have some idea of a potential plot, the writing goes nowhere quickly. That said, it doesn't hurt to let characters have a bit of fun, and see if an idea presents itself.

ETA: This is the huge problem with readers requesting sequels. Yes the characters are great, but without a story it's difficult to take them anywhere interesting...

 

[ElectricBlue]

For me it's always characters first, and they make their own story as they go along. I've been accused of being plotless, and that's fine, because my stories are more about mood anyway. Some readers like evocative descriptions of places outside time, and I tend to given them that. And cafés. Lots of cafés.

I also have a piss-take story (in Humor and Satire) where I have a couple of characters squabbling with their writer to put them in a story. That was a fun one to write.

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/in-search-of-a-story

 

[SimonDoom]

My take: plot and character go hand in hand, but there are authors who focus first on character and there are authors who focus first on plot. There's no one right way.

I focus first on plot. I have an idea for a story, and what I want to happen, and usually I figure out the ending right away, and I create characters to make the story happen.

But there's no reason you can't start the opposite way: with characters.

To do this effectively, in my view, however, you have to be careful with the way you draw your characters to make them interesting and to make the reader care about them. Specifically, your characters must have an UNMET NEED and a CONFLICT that arises from that unmet need. The reader cares about your character and wants to see the character's unmet need finally met. That's what motivates the reader to read on to the end of the story.

So, when you start your story, you don't necessarily need to know exactly what the story is going to be, but you should have a good idea what the character's motivation is and what the unmet need is. These should be revealed early in the story to hook the reader. That unmet need will give rise to conflict, which makes the story interesting, and drive the plot of the story.

I've read -- and I believe -- that the best story plots are those that arise organically from the character instead of being dropped down onto the character.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I think that’s a question you have to answer for yourself, and the best way to do so is to read some stories on the site and the related comments. If you do, my assumption is that you might notice that there are a lot of both popular and unpopular stories by both popular and unknown authors which just recycle the same pedestrian and myopic tropes. Nonetheless, while writers like you or me may lament that nothing is happening in such stories, some readers may find them enjoyable. There’s no set rule.

 

[Brutal_One]

For me it's always characters first, and they make their own story as they go along. I've been accused of being plotless, and that's fine, because my stories are more about mood anyway. Some readers like evocative descriptions of places outside time, and I tend to given them that. And cafés. Lots of cafés.

I also have a piss-take story (in Humor and Satire) where I have a couple of characters squabbling with their writer to put them in a story. That was a fun one to write.

https://www.literotica.com/beta/s/in-search-of-a-story

EB yes I tend to agree. Yes in current arc it’s pub for me but similar idea. Give your characters somewhere to hang out or meet people and maybe a story presents. I do get the whole beginning, middle and end bit but that is too much like being back in school. I have liked the comment though work out the ‘sex scene’ you want to end up at and then work the story up to that point.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've read -- and I believe -- that the best story plots are those that arise organically from the character instead of being dropped down onto the character.

I absolutely agree with this. So many of my stories start with some vision of a character, and I have to write them a story to find out who they are.

 

[SimonDoom]

I absolutely agree with this. So many of my stories start with some vision of a character, and I have to write them a story to find out who they are.

I write the opposite way you do, but at the same time I believe that to write the best possible story I should try to make it look like a story that's written the way you do (character first), if that makes sense.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think it's a false dichotomy. A bad plot can't carry lousy characters, and lousy characters can't carry a bad plot. Oddly, I find this different with TV. TV seems to manage decent stories with terrible characters (Star Trek) and decent characters with terrible stories (just about anything on Adult Swim). For me, either/or in writing just doesn't cut it. A story can be stronger on characters than on plot, or vice versa, but if either element is awful, I can't enjoy the story.

My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether characters flow from plot or plot flows from characters as long as one thing is flowing from another. There should be a relationship between the two, and they need to be integrated in a way that doesn't leave the reader thinking about them separately.

 

[ian370]

In the movie script I am editing, character has been a key. I think it is important in this sense for others to relate. Realistic individuals are perhaps needed when bringing a story to life. Otherwise, those on the other end are less likely to care.

Yet for me as a writer, you cannot have something worthwhile without that intriguing story to tell. Even if you have interesting people within it.

I think it depends a lot on the genre also and also the individual preference of a writer.

 

[Brutal_One]

I think it's a false dichotomy. A bad plot can't carry lousy characters, and lousy characters can't carry a bad plot. Oddly, I find this different with TV. TV seems to manage decent stories with terrible characters (Star Trek) and decent characters with terrible stories (just about anything on Adult Swim). For me, either/or in writing just doesn't cut it. A story can be stronger on characters than on plot, or vice versa, but if either element is awful, I can't enjoy the story.

My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether characters flow from plot or plot flows from characters as long as one thing is flowing from another. There should be a relationship between the two, and they need to be integrated in a way that doesn't leave the reader thinking about them separately.

My current take is the starting point for my characters is hopefully clear, at least Frank and Michelle. And yes both on a journey so to speak. From the point of view of story at this point, the Ring origin is one and of course I already know that story, I just can’t think it can be shared in Lit. I can get those two characters probably to something of an end point past the obvious.

But I am enjoying the writing, it’s a decent outlet. There may be very few that like it but I already know some who do and that’s despite the short story chapters, not much happening. Some books I read have 2 or 3 page chapters.

Will see how it goes .....

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

My current take is the starting point for my characters is hopefully clear, at least Frank and Michelle. And yes both on a journey so to speak. From the point of view of story at this point, the Ring origin is one and of course I already know that story, I just can’t think it can be shared in Lit. I can get those two characters probably to something of an end point past the obvious.

But I am enjoying the writing, it’s a decent outlet. There may be very few that like it but I already know some who do and that’s despite the short story chapters, not much happening. Some books I read have 2 or 3 page chapters.

Will see how it goes .....

My comment wasn't related to your story. I was speaking in generalities. However, if I were to apply it to your story, I'd say that your characters need development more than your plot does. Your plot is suffering, in my opinion, from trying to be something it's not, but you could easily turn it into something that people would appreciate. Lots of people like magic rings with a pseudo-archaeological backdrop. Mind control stories may not be the most popular category, but it's still a freaking lot of people who enjoy that. My criticism of your plot in the other thread does not have anything to do with the imagination of the story. It's not my cup of tea, but it is definitely a cup of tea oodles of people enjoy sipping from. Fully realizing your characters will be a more involved challenge.

I think you'll find that chapters in a book and chapters on Lit are two very, very different things. One distinction is that when you finish a chapter in a book, you can just turn the page and read the next chapter. Chapters in a book are like scenes. Here, many readers will be unsatisfied if the chapter does not contain the elements of a story. Think of the chapters as little story arcs inside the larger story arc. Read some multi-chapter stories and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Haulover]

YMMV, but I believe that you cannot have one without the other.

I'll create a character in my mind.

Then I'll create a story line.

The plot often clashes with the character, and I'll need to change it - many times - before the story fits the character.

Then the challenge is to write a plot with enough hooks to keep the reader's attention, and find ways to paint the character well enough that the reader reacts to the character. That reader-reaction might be love, hate, identifying with, the character - whatever. But it's the key to success.

All of this happens in my mind at first - then I write a wire-frame, and use that as a guide for every writing session. The characters have a tendency to veer off-script, which is often where they reveal their true personalities. But I'm usually able to steer them back into the plot.

 

[KeithD]

The short story mode doesn't require the author to exhaust every element. You can emphasize one--any of them: plot, character, setting, theme--that you want to in a short story. So, there's no "rule" of any of them being more important than the other in a short story.

 

[Voboy]

In my mind, I prioritize characters over plot. I don't think my readers do. So, if my plot is weak-sauce, I know I'd best have a VERY good character dipping things in that weak sauce.

Most of the stories I've abandoned, or even the ones I've finished that I'm sitting on, are not good enough precisely because I loved the character too much and tried to shoehorn them into a sketchy or unoriginal plot.

 

[KeithD]

Of course, this being specifically an erotica site, the sex act could have importance over everything else.

I had a short story in a state-wide contest once in which the first-place short story (I thought it should have been in the essay category, not short story) only provided setting--what was seen, heard, smelled, experienced in a drive over the Blue Ridge Mountains from one town to another.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Interesting characters will do interesting things.

When I started writing my Mary and Alvin series, (more than two and a half years ago!) I started with two lead characters. I built in some differences that I knew would cause conflicts. I surrounded them with secondary characters I thought would be interesting and highlight some of the conflicts, and I set out to chronicle their relationship from beginning to end. I knew they would fall in love and marry, I knew there would be bumps in the road.

I wrote a rough version of the final chapter immediately after I wrote the first. How they would get to that known end was unknown.

I think I've been pretty successful with it, although I've been told I don't write "real stories." I don't have a lot of readers, long non-scifi series don't seem to, but I have a loyal following that obviously enjoys it. Every chapter has a red H.

The bottom line is that I found a formula that works for me and for some number of readers.

The series is almost at its conclusion. A new chapter will be up in a few days, and then there are only two more. Then I'll be on to something else.

 

[Voboy]

Interesting characters will do interesting things.

When I started writing my Mary and Alvin series, (more than two and a half years ago!) I started with two lead characters. I built in some differences that I knew would cause conflicts. I surrounded them with secondary characters I thought would be interesting and highlight some of the conflicts, and I set out to chronicle their relationship from beginning to end. I knew they would fall in love and marry, I knew there would be bumps in the road.

I wrote a rough version of the final chapter immediately after I wrote the first. How they would get to that known end was unknown.

I think I've been pretty successful with it, although I've been told I don't write "real stories." I don't have a lot of readers, long non-scifi series don't seem to, but I have a loyal following that obviously enjoys it. Every chapter has a red H.

The bottom line is that I found a formula that works for me and for some number of readers.

The series is almost at its conclusion. A new chapter will be up in a few days, and then there are only two more. Then I'll be on to something else.

Out of curiosity, do you anticipate big changes to your rough draft of the final chapter, based on unexpected twists and turns over the past couple years?

 

[MelissaBaby]

Out of curiosity, do you anticipate big changes to your rough draft of the final chapter, based on unexpected twists and turns over the past couple years?

Not changes, per se, but additions. That's not unexpected, I assumed details would fill in based on prior events.

There is one pretty major development in the final chapter that I may or may not keep. I probably won't make that decision until the very last minute.

 

[SamScribble]

I think characters - interesting characters - make the story something with which the reader can engage. It's the characters who the readers cheer for (or boo) not the story per se.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think characters - interesting characters - make the story something with which the reader can engage. It's the characters who the readers cheer for (or boo) not the story per se.

Pretty much nothing happens in The Catcher In The Rye, but everybody who ever read it clearly remembers Holden Caulfield.

 

[SamScribble]

Pretty much nothing happens in The Catcher In The Rye, but everybody who ever read it clearly remembers Holden Caulfield.

Exactly. Pretty much the same with To the Lighthouse and umpteen other 'classics'.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Exactly. Pretty much the same with To the Lighthouse and umpteen other 'classics'.

Also, June, rolling her stockings down .

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Interesting characters will do interesting things.

When I started writing my Mary and Alvin series, (more than two and a half years ago!) I started with two lead characters. I built in some differences that I knew would cause conflicts. I surrounded them with secondary characters I thought would be interesting and highlight some of the conflicts, and I set out to chronicle their relationship from beginning to end. I knew they would fall in love and marry, I knew there would be bumps in the road.

I wrote a rough version of the final chapter immediately after I wrote the first. How they would get to that known end was unknown.

I think I've been pretty successful with it, although I've been told I don't write "real stories." I don't have a lot of readers, long non-scifi series don't seem to, but I have a loyal following that obviously enjoys it. Every chapter has a red H.

The bottom line is that I found a formula that works for me and for some number of readers.

The series is almost at its conclusion. A new chapter will be up in a few days, and then there are only two more. Then I'll be on to something else.

Will you be relieved/happy to get to the end of the story, or will you be sad that the story has ended?

 

[karaline]

Sally Rooney has been a runaway success with Conversations with Friends and Normal People. Neither book really has a plot to speak of, they're both entirely character (and relationship) driven.