The Free Speech Hypocrisy

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
Joined
Jul 29, 2000
Posts
25,603
I'm a big supporter of my own personal right to run my mouth off any way I see fit. Right, wrong, indifferent, whatever. I think others should have the same right to run off at the mouth. Whether I happen to like what they say or not.

I believe that when someone says something on these boards that I don't like, then I should be able to rant and rave at them, but I should not be permitted to silence them. I don't want to be silenced myself, what gives me the right to silence others?

Across the top of this forum is a banner.

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This banner means exactly what it says. Free speech. Not free for some, but not others, free means free for everyone.

This board has some rules, mostly to prevent it from being overrun by spam and to prevent others from being opened up to potential physical harm. Beyond that, anything goes.

There are people here who don't care about others or anyone's feelings. There are people here who think it's fun to hurt people with their words. Should they be silenced? Should they be shut up and pushed out?

I say no.

Free speech means free for everyone or it's not free speech. Hanns steps over the line of common decency with just about everything he posts. He does not break the rules often and when he does those posts are edited or removed.

If he does not break the rules, why should he be silenced? Because the things he says hurts people? Makes people angry? What about p_p_man? Should he be silenced as well? He hurts people, makes them angry. REDWAVE goes beyond the pale with his wild accusations and indictments. How about Synthesist? Along with red, he constantly harangues certain posters about their "pedophilia". Should he be silenced?

Hanns makes people uncomfortable. He says hateful things for no other reason than because he can get away with and get reactions from people over it. If we silence him, it's not going to be any loss. But where does it end? Why should we silence Hanns, but not the trolls who make other posters uncomfortable? When does Literotica begin to legislate morality on these boards? Why should they?

I say that if you don't like what Hanns has to say, put him on ignore. You don't have to read his drivel. When it flies past because someone quotes him or he goes unregistered, let it go. You have a choice to make about what you read and what you see. You have choices to make about what you say. If we begin by silencing Hanns, you no longer have that choice, it's been made for you. And it's only the beginning. First Hanns, next Indigo Rose. A lot of people don't like her, she's says vicious, hateful things. Why shouldn't she be silenced, too? Then why not me after that? I say things that a lot of people don't like, too.

Free speech is only free when everyone has it. Free speech isn't just about saying what you want, it's about choosing what you want to hear on your own, by your judgment and morals, rather than someone else's.

Think about this. Do you want your behavior and what you have to say to be dictated by someone else's idea of what's acceptable or not? No, silencing Hanns isn't going to cause anyone else any grief, but it never stops there, not with just one. Harassment is evil, until someone accuses you of doing it and wants to shut you up.

It's very simple and very clear. If you agree with the banner you see at the top of your browser, then you'll never ask Laurel to silence Hanns. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite. Your choice, your rights or your sense of security. Literotica supports your rights. If you want security, find yourself a Shiny Happy Poster Land.
 
KillerMuffin said:
...find yourself a Shiny Happy Poster Land.

But...I don't like The Playground.

Can we talk about Hanns & Indigo more often please? I feel they need more bandwidth.

Thank you.

Lance
 
Right on, KM. Every word.

It's about setting a precedent. Maybe no one will be hurt personally if Hanns is silenced, but if that happens, then it's no longer about him, it's about the precedent it sets.

Oh, and UNF!
 
I wasn't talking about them, Lanciepants, they're simply convenient examples.

I'm talking about the emails and the PMs that say "I support free speech, but this is just over the top." "This guy is harassing people, shut him up!" I'm talking about the people who support free speech, but only when it's convenient for them.

Besides, big boy, I seem to remember a time when people wanted to shut you up.
 
Very nice, and I agree with everything, except the banner at the top of the page thing, which will link you to various groups that advocate and educate about the legality of Free Speech, which has nothing to do with Literotica, a free board wherein Laurel is perfectly within her rights to ban people with the letter "J" in their name, if she likes, without infringing upon anyone's right to Free Speech. Free Speech means you have the right to create your own web site, not have the right to exepct Laurel to provide you a platform for yours. In fact, you can be banned here, for not following the few simple rules Laurel has set up to keep everyone safe. And I do think people can question the web mistres from time to time, and ask her to re-examine that policy, and perhaps expand it, without affecting Free Speech, which does not apply here.

Literotica's "free speech" (lower case letters) is a creation of Laurel's and a wonderful thing that shouldn't be confused with Free Speech as described in the U.S. Constitution's first amendment (also a wonderful thang). I understand where KM is going here, but enough idiots demanding their own corner of Literotica bring up their non-existant legal to right to Free Speech at Literotica, without the rest of us advocating that by confusing the issue too much.

To sum up. KM cool. Hanns a bore. Laurel a genius.
 
KillerMuffin said:
I wasn't talking about them, Lanciepants, they're simply convenient examples.

I'm talking about the emails and the PMs that say "I support free speech, but this is just over the top." "This guy is harassing people, shut him up!" I'm talking about the people who support free speech, but only when it's convenient for them.

Besides, big boy, I seem to remember a time when people wanted to shut you up.

Well said, this and the thread starter, too. It is about time someone explained to the "flock" in here, what it all really means.

Thank you, KM.
 
Yes, I understood what you were saying the first time 'round, KM.

I was being sarcastic...as if to say "Hey, let's talk about the latest uproar again....not."

There will always be someone somebody wants to shut up, fuck off, catch a disease, have their dick fall off, never have lunch again, leave town, etc. BFD.

In my opinion, raising the issue merely perpetuates the naysaying....gives it fuel.

The best way to put out a fire is to cut off its oxygen supply.
On a Board, that means "change the subject." JMHO

Nice post by the way.

Say, how 'bout that Dr. Phil?

Lance




KillerMuffin said:
I wasn't talking about them, Lanciepants, they're simply convenient examples.
 
Muff, Hanns character is increasingly wearing thin. I'm tired of it. Could you possibly bring back yayati character?
 
I agree with much what you state KM. However, just because we do profess to protect the right of free speech, doesn't mean that we have to let a bigot yell racial slurs in our ears. Lit. is our community. It is a semi-public community in that we exclude those people who don't obey the rules. Just as we aren't hypocrites for closing our residence door on the neighborhood bigot, we wouldn't be hypocrites if we chose to do the same for a bigot here.

The forum guidelines state "Do not threaten other users", yet, IIRC, Yayati has twice threatened people on this forum with harm (each time I reported the post to Laurel and yet he is still here). I long ago put Hanns on ignore, but I gather he too has threatened people. If that is true then I would say ban him in whatever fashion is possible.

I believe the forum guidelines used to have a rule against harrasment, but I don't see anything along those lines now. Just what "harrasment" is may be nebulous, but I think most people would agree that most of Hanns' posts qualify.

I do believe that if people just ignored and stopped responding to Hanns and Yayati they would just go away, but we both know that some people just can't help themselves. I find this greatly detracts from my enjoyment of the board, and I believe that if Lit. doesn't do something about these harrasing trolls then Lit. will suffer a decrease in membership as the quality of the content decreases. I don't think it would be hypocritical to tighten up the rules a bit and expel such trolls as Hanns and Yayati. Nobody is preventing them from getting their own website and publishing their garbage there.
 
People keep missing the point that Dixon made once again. It is Laurel's site. It is her decision, her living room, in effect. I think she is right in staying out of it as much as possible, for what that's worth. If somebody wants to start a BB devoted to stamp collecting, they have the right to ban anyone that doesn't discuss stamps, or discusses them in the wrong way, or doesn't use proper punctuation, or whatever. I wish people would stop braying that Laurel should run things differently. She is our Goddess and we should worship her. Or get yourself another religion.
 
Hanns_Schmidt said:
I've noticed CV getting more and more quietly pissed about Hanns taking all the glory while CV is........is..../err who?
Why do you always follow me around?

How many times do I have to tell you I'm not Bi?
 
Harbinger said:
People keep missing the point that Dixon made once again. It is Laurel's site. It is her decision, her living room, in effect. I think she is right in staying out of it as much as possible, for what that's worth. If somebody wants to start a BB devoted to stamp collecting, they have the right to ban anyone that doesn't discuss stamps, or discusses them in the wrong way, or doesn't use proper punctuation, or whatever. I wish people would stop braying that Laurel should run things differently. She is our Goddess and we should worship her. Or get yourself another religion.
Agreed. Here Laurel is the Godess. However, I would suggest that just as with any other religion, this one waxes and wanes. If worshippers get tired of listening to bigots, then maybe the Godess should take note that her worshippers are restless and do something about the heretics in her flock (except me of course :D), before her flock leaves her another forgotten deity.

Ultimately it is Laurel's site to do with as she wishes, but I have seen better communities than this destroyed by just one person who wanted to spoil the fun.

There, as The Heretic I have voiced my prophecy from on high - I now will shut up and wait to be struck by lightning. ;)
 
Harbinger said:
People keep missing the point that Dixon made once again. It is Laurel's site. It is her decision, her living room, in effect. I think she is right in staying out of it as much as possible, for what that's worth. If somebody wants to start a BB devoted to stamp collecting, they have the right to ban anyone that doesn't discuss stamps, or discusses them in the wrong way, or doesn't use proper punctuation, or whatever. I wish people would stop braying that Laurel should run things differently. She is our Goddess and we should worship her. Or get yourself another religion.

The worst part for Laurel is all the ignorant pm's she gets. Frankly, because people just don't understand how this all works and I venture to say, no matter how many threads are devoted to this, they never will get it. Free speech seems to apply, with many people, when and how *they* want it to apply.
 
KillerMuffin said:


Besides, big boy, I seem to remember a time when people wanted to shut you up.

Are you saying that time is no longer here?
 
A Desert Rose said:
The worst part for Laurel is all the ignorant pm's she gets. Frankly, because people just don't understand how this all works and I venture to say, no matter how many threads are devoted to this, they never will get it. Free speech seems to apply, with many people, when and how *they* want it to apply.
Well, as has already been pointed out, we do not have free speech here except as how Laurel wishes to apply it. You aren't supposed to be able to threaten anybody (although at least one person seems to get away with it), and you aren't supposed to publish personal info about people (although multiple people seem to have done that too). So there are rules and we don't have true free speech. If you want a community where anything can be said, and usually is, then I recommend USENET - but hmmm... most people have abandoned newsgroups for that very reason. That is what I am warning against; people find such a community can eventually be ruined by obnoxious poster whose only demented purpose in life is to ruin communities such as Lit.

I personally would find that a shame, but I wouldn't hesitate to leave Lit. when it no longer becomes enjoyable or worth the effort.
 
The Heretic said:
Well, as has already been pointed out, we do not have free speech here except as how Laurel wishes to apply it. You aren't supposed to be able to threaten anybody (although at least one person seems to get away with it), and you aren't supposed to publish personal info about people (although multiple people seem to have done that too). So there are rules and we don't have true free speech. If you want a community where anything can be said, and usually is, then I recommend USENET - but hmmm... most people have abandoned newsgroups for that very reason. That is what I am warning against; people find such a community can eventually be ruined by obnoxious poster whose only demented purpose in life is to ruin communities such as Lit.

I personally would find that a shame, but I wouldn't hesitate to leave Lit. when it no longer becomes enjoyable or worth the effort.

Thanks but you are preaching to the choir. I know the rules, I can read the stickies. It's the "herd" you need to be addressing.
 
The Heretic said:
Agreed. Here Laurel is the Godess. However, I would suggest that just as with any other religion, this one waxes and wanes. If worshippers get tired of listening to bigots, then maybe the Godess should take note that her worshippers are restless and do something about the heretics in her flock (except me of course :D), before her flock leaves her another forgotten deity.



You ARE a heretic. I'm completely for free speech, but I think we should all burn you at the stake without delay, before your evil ideas spread any further. You can talk until you're all burnt up. I think that's a fair compromise.
 
This is a fascinating thread. It tackles a very difficult subject. How honest are we when we try to uphold free speech. The reality of it is that we want to silence those that express opinions that fall outside our own personal views of acceptable society. Show me some one who is will to stand up and support the right of some to express their opinion, when that opinion is so diametrically opposed to their own personal beliefs and I will show you a true patriot. A true defender of rights.

If some one on this boards want to express Neonazi propaganda then we have to defend their right to make this sort of statement. If some one wanted to be a member of the Communist party then it is incumbent on each and every one of us to defend with all our might their right to hear this.

Show some one want to disseminate radical religious beliefs then we have an obligation to allow this to occur. Should a group of people wish to express totally radical thoughts over the ruling class even to the extent that they sink ships in Boston Harbour then we have to allow this.

Many things can offend our sensibilities and each of us has own belief systems we should not and can not impose these on others.

Before you damn some one for their opinions just remember that people have been hung for expressing an opinion that the world is round. Just because only one person believes some thing that does not mean it is wrong, nor does it mean they should not be allowed to try to convince people they are right.

If some one comes to these boards expressing racist sexist homophonic anti religious semantic opinions I tend to ignore them. They don’t insult my sensibilities, they only insult their own intelligence.




Mike (.02c)
 
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