The first duty of a writer

[KillerMuffin]

From Steven Goldsberry

"The first duty of a writer is to entertain. Readers lose interest with exposition and abstract philosophy. They want to be entertained. But they feel cheated if, in the course of entertaining, you haven't taught them something."


Do you think this is true? Does it apply to stories here at Literotica? Or pornography in general? Is this something that might define the difference between "pornography" and "erotica?"

How much effort do you put into your plotting, or want to put into plotting? How "cheap," for lack of a better term, do you judge the stories posted here to be?

 

[Ray Dario]

As with most sweeping generalizations I believe there is some truth in what he said, but not an absolute truth.

Not all readers want to be "taught" something. Remembering back to my early years I ravenously read each new "Executioner" book as it came out. I loved them, but I pray to God that they didn't "teach" me about life. They did entertain. They were pure action but they did glorify murder and Mack Bolan was certainly a murderer. Today I abhor murder and all senseless violence but I still remember with some pleasure the countless nights I lay in bed reading those books.

Does Mr. Goldsberry's generalization hold true for Lit? Yes and no. Yes some people here want good complex plot and a twist at the end. Other's just want a quick wank on the old pud.

The "Erotica" vs. "Porn" question will be debated to infinity, I suspect. Perhaps plot is one of the defining elements. I also feel that the quality of the writing should play a part, and perhaps the "moral lesson" motif could be a factor. Honestly, I believe that the distinction is a personal one. One persons erotica could very well be another's porn.

How much effort do I put into plot? More now than when I started writing here, less than when I write SF&F stories.

How "cheap" do I think the stories here are? That is sort of like asking "How cheap are the shoes in stores in New York?" The variety of stories here make it impossible to answer. All I can say is that they run the entire spectrum. There are stories here I wouldn't read if you paid me and a rare few that I read and just sit in awe of the writer's skill when I am done.

anyway, this is one hell of a good thread KM, I hope it gets the responses it deserves.

Ray

 

[star_driver]

not entertain, keep the reader interested

I think it more correct to say the writer's duty is to make the reader want to continue reading. I will begin to read just about anything but I (usually) don't waste time finishing if it can't hold my interest. It's all in the presentation. Five people can write about the exact same subject or event, but only one or two are going to present the subject so well that anyone who starts to read their version will be compelled to finish.

A good example (for me) is sports writing. I love baseball and rate Game 6 of the 1975 World Series as one of the greatest moments in the history of the game. I have read (literally) 75 or so accounts of the game. These accounts range from 3 or 4 paragaphs to entire books. They were written anywhere from immediately after the game ended to 2 years ago. However, I would only recommend about 15 to 25 of them to even the most fanatic of baseball readers. Those 15 to 25 were so compelling and drew me in so that I was lost in the story.

Now granted, I had a bias toward the subject matter, but except for required reading, people should be reading subject matter that naturally appeals to them. By required reading, I mean assigned schoolwork or reading necessary to keep one abreast of legal requirements for a job, etc. I have to read a lot of notices in the Federal register for my job and it is dry, boring, legalese that I have to force myself to get through for the sake of my career and my employer, thus my caveat about usually not finishing if it doesn't draw me in.

Ideally, this response is consistent with my original premise, that the writer needs to compel the reader to continue reading. Either way, I would echo Ray's comment that this can and hopefully will be a terrific thread to follow in the days ahead.

 

[star_driver]

bad answer

Looking back on my earlier response I realized I might not have been clear enough. I meant to distinguish "entertain" from "hold interest". Lots of writing can hold my interest without being what I could consider "entertaining" to me.

Since 9/11, I have done a lot of reading on the mid-East, Islam and related subjects. I was interested in the subject matter but my motive was not to be entertained. I sought knowledge. However, I did not finish reading every source I began because some of it was just not keeping me interested.

It wasn't the subject matter but the presentation that turned me off. I can handle reading passionately anti-American material, but not if it is just endless rants about the will of Allah, the imperialist USA or some such nonsense. I would rather read about the society/culture in which such beliefs take hold and the practical circumstances that generate such feelings. Enough about that, I don't want to turn the thread off it's intended direction. Just using an example that came to me quickly.

As for the rest of KM's questions...

To me, porn vs. erotica is a null subject. I see them as two words covering the same subject matter. Some stories at this site are simply meant to entertain (mine included) while others definitely can and do teach the reader, not necessarily in a direct manner, but by making the reader think about them afterwards. However, I don't think that is the only method of assigning value to a story and I don't feel cheated when I read Dave Barry or Donald Westlake even though I rarely learn anything or think about it afterwards. However, I coem to Lit to be entertained and end up reading stories here that I think about afterwards. A good example is Killer Muffin's story (don't remember the name offhand) about the hypnotist stalker. Sexy but spooky!

As for plot, I will simply say that even though I write purely for entertainment purposes in a category (celebrity) that doesn't have any basis in reality, I do try to do more than simply report what parts went into which orifices because that is what I want to read. I try to make them at least possible encounters, although they are definitely improbable. However, in some cases, I have gotten feedback saying I took too long in developing the circumstances of a sexual encounter, so its obviously a matter of reader preference.

 

[Quasimodem]

I definitely read for entertainment. But I also read for information.

News, text books, and other information that interest me may be classed as "entertaining." by me, but others will object. Alternately, there are books others fine extremely entertaining, that I can't get through more than a few pages.

I have a dictionary of English thieves cant, published in 1811, that I find is a hoot! Stories set against an unusual background, which the writer understands and can illustrate, need not be entertaining by themselves. Still, they can "entertain" merely though their well done setting.

Some stories get me through intrigue.

These are stories with such an strange premises, or plot development, that I can not put them down. A good example of would be the better Science Fiction, or Alternate History stories. The ones that, begin: "What if...."

Then, there are computer manuals. I doubt if anyone would call them "entertaining," but sometimes, with luck, they can be rewarding.

Speaking of computer manuals, I had previously heard that "clarity" was a writers prime objective. I never bought that one completely. Neither do I buy "entertainment" as the only criteria.

I believe writing is a juggling act. The writer must keep aloft enough action for interest, enough description for understanding, enough dialogue for personality, and enough plot for motivation.
How smoothly the author can keep a plethora of concerns moving within the story, is an indication of just how good the writer has become.

Usually, this means that the reader, for whatever reason, finds the story "entertaining" enough to finish.

I am still not describing my own writing here, but I'm working on it!


As for the Pornography versus Erotica debate, that is not a writer's province. That is in an area set aside for critics. Pornography is the negative label for the same stories that Erotica is the positive label. Usage tends to depict the labeller more than that which is labelled.

At least, that is my opinion. I may not be correct, but I'm positive.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Whoops! Clarification. This came from an article in a magazine about Fiction writing. It never occured to me to add that point.

It should be the first duty of a Fiction writer.

 

[Weird Harold]

From Steven Goldsberry

"The first duty of a writer is to entertain. ...

This is just another way of saying what I keep saying every time somebody says, "but, it's just a porn story"

whatever the genre, it is first and foremost a story and all of the tricks and techniques of good story-telling apply.

 

[Quint]

I find abstract philosophy utterly fascinating. I wish more people could properly incorporate it into their erotic fiction writing. My tongue is firmly OUT of cheek; I'm being serious. In my usual quirky way.

It all depends on my mood at the time. Sometimes, I admit that I scan Lit for pure smut, with a few sentences that make me pant. I'll linger for oh, 15 minutes--blushing--and then I'll go back on my quest for stories that I remember later. There is a very good series by one AndrewBlack in the "fantasy" section called "Agent Violin." I read the first two chapter delightedly, and sent him feedback warning him that many would complain about the extended plot before sex. His stories are rated quite high, and deservedly so. I think that there are enough plot-based stories and enough readers who choose them to justify faith in the Literotica family.

Besides, I have a personal interest in this matter. My chapter in the Chain Story is emerging very dark and bleak. I do want this to be a tale of self-discovery and eventually self-love, but the path leading there is uncomfortably twisted, to say the least. I'm worried that I will scare away the reader before they detect the happy ending. A question related to the starter: how dark d'you think most readers like their stories? How dark will they tolerate? (Obviously I'm exempting "Extreme.")

 

[Closet Desire]

I don't much care...

...for duty.

Steven Goldsberry is welcome to his. Art--including literature--is selfish first and shared with the public later.

Guess that's the rebel in me...

 

[Guest]

I have found that I get a better response from my stories that are the most cliche. People don't mind "not" being surprised.

I've got to admit, it's a pretty boring way to fill up a screen. However, after writing 8 chapters of Harriet Hotter with only a few feedbacks, I'll end up doing a straight porn story again shortly. I'm a glutton. A needy writer.

 

[Axeltheswede]

Duties?

If I thought there were duties involved in writing erotica, I would scramble out of here like a monkey.

I write to feed my massive ego. In the process, I entertain myself and anyone who cares to read my stuff.

The rewards are those all too infrequent emails, like one a week ago - "Hot story. Had to change my shorts after reading that one".

I hope I tell a good story. I try hard to present believable conflict, interesting characters, and entertaining resolutions. And, I hope I get a little better with each new story.

Thanks for posting an interesting, thought provoking thread, Muffie.

 

[naudiz]

Entertainment is subjective. I've gotten feedback so far thanking me for the fact that my story has a plot, and that the character development is greatly appreciated. This pleases me, because I enjoy working with plots and character development. I often fail to be entertained when they are lacking.

I would say that before a writer can consider the duty of entertaining, s/he must first consider the audience. Who is the writer writing for? For example, I feel that anyone looking for a quick wank isn't going to get a lot out of my story because there's an awful lot of stuff going on during and between the sex scenes. My target audience is people who enjoy plot and character as well as the depiction of sex. They are the ones I want to entertain. Can't please everyone, after all.

How cheap do I think the stories posed here are? They're too widely varied to slap an all-encompassing label on them. Some of the stories here are incredibly entertaining, well written, and utterly enjoyable. Some are well written but not my cup of tea. Some aren't even well written.

I don't like comments like 'just a porn story' or 'just a porn board' because the tone of those comments often trivializes sex and the way it can motivate people, including characters. It separates sex into its own little pigeon hole, as if sex must be kept separate from other elements of the human psyche. Bah! Bah, I say. Let's see some plot. Let's see sex incorporated into a character's life, not designated to just this thing s/he does on the side.

Having said that, I'm sure I'll irk those people who read erotica, porn, or whatever you want to call it, because they're looking for a quick wank. Hey, that's fine. May there never be a shortage of those stories, because they sure as hell get the job done nicely.

So, short version. Yes, a writer's job is to entertain, but before a writer can successfully do that, the writer must decide just whom s/he is attempting to entertain. One persons's entertainment is another person's insomnia cure, so choices must be made.

 

[Whispersecret]

I think that perhaps "cheated" is too strong a word.

I believe that every piece of fiction, even though it's all made-up, should show some truth regarding the human condition. (Yes, I've read Stephen King's On Writing and took it to heart.) It may be as simple as a snapshot into the life of a character whose situation is different from yours. Or it may be complex and deep, like, say, Orwell's 1984.

If what you write lacks truth, the reader may not consciously feel cheated, per se, but may feel less satisfied than if the truth had been present.

 

[JUDO]

1st duty of a writer? Write well.

Beyond that, I don't want to go. The subjective nature of everything we do as writers doesn't allow writing to be "boxed."

See "Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" for a great reason not to try and define what makes for quality writing.

––––––––

If we narrowed the parameters of this question a bit, we could sucessfully go further. Like "What is the duty of an erotic writer at Literotica?"

I think that is a more interesting question for those of us who relish writing here.

So, 1st duty of a Literotica erotic writer? Get the readers (who vary quite a bit with their appreciation) hot by taking them to a part of their sexuality they haven't been to before.


- Judo

 

[christo]

One of my writing teachers asked us that question in class one day and let us thrash it out for an hour. This one unbelievably pretentious kid said, "All fiction should describe universal truths. All my fiction does." And then my teacher read an excerpt from an essay by Borges who says that, above all else, the fiction writer must be a good liar, because all fiction is lies. I don't think that ass went out and checked out anything by Borges after class.

We all agreed to a certain extent that fiction should entertain. My teacher qualified that somewhat. Good fiction, he said, should ASTONISH. Keeping the reader flipping the pages is good, but you should aim higher. You might write so beautifully that the reader is transported by the poetry, you might reveal those universal truths in a way that enlightens, you might have a plot with so many twists and turns and characters so engaging that the reader stays up till 4AM because they know they'll never sleep without finding how the hero gets out of THAT scrape. It means raising the bar as high as you can. Be ambitious. Do your best.

 

[TheEarl]

Agree with christo in some ways. The best books I've ever read are ones where I just cannot stop reading them and end up still reading at 2:00 in the morning. Compelling fiction is what gets me as a reader.

However I know damn well that I am not good enough to write compelling fiction. I can write entertaining or diverting fiction, but if you had to stop in the middle of one of my stories, you wouldn't be distraught about it.

So I write for myself. The whole reason I started writing on here was to get these ideas and stories out of my head and onto a page. It's nice if they entertain, but the fact that they please me is more important.

Just to be argumentative, the Bible is the biggest collection of bound exposition and abstract philosophy around and that's quite popular.

The Earl

 

[Axeltheswede]

first duty of a writer

One other benefit of writing erotica shouldn't be overlooked. We all have the opportunity to develop and refine our craft. All the great ideas and stories still need the basic craft of writing before they see print.

Ray Dario brought this notion to light in another thread. Punch your name or the name of another writer in the search engine. What comes up is a chronological list of stories. I can almost guarantee, you will see progress and refinement as your reading takes you to the most recent posts.

If most of us stick with it, a few of us will get to that "page turner" place at the top of the mountain.

 

[karmadog]

But is it art?

The difference between erotica and porn is that one is art and the other is not. How is one to define the difference? I don't know for anyone but me.

I will say that a writer who has aspirations to produce art, is going to have to illuminate some aspect of the human condition, to inform his readers of something they have learned about life and how it is lived.

That said, a story must be entertaining or absorbing for it to be read. I want people to read what I write, therefore I must be entertaining and all of the storytellers tricks must be in my bag.

Some days you want to cook a balanced nutritious meal, other days you just want to make pastries.

 

[secretdesire]

First duty of a write

I think the first duty of a fiction writer should be to take the reader away from their own reality for a little while. The success of your ability to do that is going to be dependent on how good of a writer you are. You have to grab the reader fast enough and well enough to pull them in and keep it interesting enough to hold them until the end. I think if you can do that, then you've written something worth reading.

 

[TheEarl]

I think the first duty of a fiction writer should be to take the reader away from their own reality for a little while.

Secretdesire has just wrapped it up in one sentence. Immersion in a story, that's what makes a good book.

The Earl

 

[NaughtyMike]

You are correct Killer Muffin People want to be entertained. Normally if they are not entertained by the first paragraph, they go elsewhere to read. It is not like buying a book or having to read one for school where a person feels obligated to finish the whole damn thing.

Perhaps that is why movies/TV is killing the print media.

I personally cannot write about straight sex and only sex. I must toss in some bizarre reference to some obscure movie, song, TV show, book, etc. just to see if anyone gets it. (Sort of like the Simpsons-except Porno style.) In one incest writing I used anagrams of Oedipus Rex and his family. I had to first "kill the king" symbolized by a cat with an anagram name, before I could have sex with my mother (another anagram name). The interesting thing is that the killing of the cat was an actual event which happend to me once, although I had to change the name of the cat.

Since my stories take place mostly in the 80s I use retro humor and references to pop groups and politics of that era- and will always predict the future (wrongly of course) at that time.

In one story I introduce a seemingly odd character as a door man at a strip tease joint-Leo Burt. Leo, a real person, who has been wanted by the FBI for 30 years. I have him pop in the Block in Baltimore which is located next to the police station and once visited by CIA agents on a regular basis. There is a lot of irony in that situation, although I doubt if any of the readers and certainly not our editors can appreciate.

I have a few hard core cult fans. However in judging by the readership and their grade point sytem, my style of entertainment is not what the bulk are seeking. The editors, it seems, grew up on romance novels. They have no fucking idea what gets a man off. So many times I read a great story with no editor's pick by it, only to go to one with the pick and find the story a complete bore. I enjoy giving a "one" to an editor's pick myself-when it really deserves it.
NaughtyMike

 

[TrinaT]

I'd like to add my opinion, as insignificant as it may be to some, of porn vs. erotica. Personally, I don't feel porn has a plot, just raw sex, no story. Erotica has a plot, a storyline, direction to a conclusion.

I love to read for entertainment, which brought me to Literotica to begin with. The keyword "entertainment," which is what Literotica is about, correct? In some respects, I also read to learn and grow when I feel the need. For example, the posting boards. If I pick a post that is of interest, I read them all before I respond (again, even if it is to only agree or disagree with someone else). This forum is one of my learning tools.

Thank you everyone for the constructive help, thoughts, and opinions.

TrinaT

 

[NaughtyMike]

At the risk of sounding like a prude....Trina, is an erotic literature site a first choice where one can "learn and grow"? By "grow" if you mean "penis" and "learn" you mean new words for "gash". It reminds me of Tiger Woods being interviewed in the Phillipines. They had just destroyed the farm land of some poor villagers to make room for a golf course. They interviewed some of the peons who had their land taken away, who now their only hope is to maybe get a job as a caddy to support their family. The peons were asked if they were ever going to play the game of golf. They just laughed of course. The expense was way out of their simple means. In the interview Tiger was asked, "What good will come to the Filippinos (spelling?) by building this course." Tiger replied that golf is a wonderful game and teaches people about life.
Of course if Tiger meant by life, the rich eat the poor... he would have made sense.

 

[NoJo]

Porn vs Erotica

I think 'porn' has connotations of exploitation.
'Erotica' has connotations of art. The border , like most boundaries between words with related meanings, is obviously not sharp.

I try write stories that are about sexual realtionships. Since submitting to lit.com, I've spiced up and gone into more graphic detail on the sex (which is fun to do), but my stories are never just sex -- because sex is never just sex.
It looks to me that broadly speaking the more sexual description a story has , the higher its rating, on this site.

Sub Joe.

 

[TrinaT]

NaughtyMike:

At the risk of sounding like a prude....Trina, is an erotic literature site a first choice where one can "learn and grow"? By "grow" if you mean "penis" and "learn" you mean new words for "gash". It reminds me of Tiger Woods being interviewed in the Phillipines. They had just destroyed the farm land of some poor villagers to make room for a golf course. They interviewed some of the peons who had their land taken away, who now their only hope is to maybe get a job as a caddy to support their family. The peons were asked if they were ever going to play the game of golf. They just laughed of course. The expense was way out of their simple means. In the interview Tiger was asked, "What good will come to the Filippinos (spelling?) by building this course." Tiger replied that golf is a wonderful game and teaches people about life. Of course if Tiger meant by life, the rich eat the poor... he would have made sense.

It seems I should have explained the "learn and grow." I meant as an erotica writer, not on a personal level. As I previously stated, these postings are idea and learning tools for writers, both experienced and just starting out. I'm not in the habit of "destroying" someone's home land nor am I "the rich eatting the poor." I agree with Sub Joe, porn has connotations of exploitation, and erotica is more artfully written. I too prefer to write about relationships, but read other categories to "learn" about other preferences of a reading audience, to expand and "grow" in my writings for the entertainment of the reading audience.

Trina T.