The End of Innocence

[Eve_of_destruction]

I know that this isn't exactly the best BB to post a thread like this, but since it's the only BB I frequent, you guys get to hear my lament.

I am so bummed out by the youth of today. And it isn't any one particular thing - it's everything. Yes, my teenagers are giving me hell right now with their lying and their drug problems, and I'm sure that's contributing to my sadness... not to mention the fact that I was raped by one of their friends. It's all that and more... it's just watching the world around me and being scared as hell about the future.

I was watching 48 Hours tonight on CBS. It told the story about a seemingly normal 14-year old boy in Jacksonville, FL, who murdered an 8-year old girl who lived across the street from him - and hid her body inside his waterbed. After this was over, I watched a movie called "The Summer of '42". It's a coming-of-age story set during WWII, about a young man who has an affair with a woman whose husband has just died in action. The bittersweet scenes where the young man is embarrassed to go to the drugstore to ask for condoms... where he and his friend have to look in medical dictionaries to find out the proper terms for the female anatomy... the long skirts on the women... Well, following the movie, I just started crying, wishing beyond all hope that our youth could somehow go back to a more innocent time where there were no high school shootings, no porn on the Internet, no White House sex scandals, no drugs, no gangs... just innocence. Ozzy and Harriot, The Cleaver family... maybe the 40's and 50's weren't as innocent as I always thought they were, but I think anything would be better than the conditions we have now. My little slice of the midwest has seen a 14-year old kill his grandmother because she would not buy him a 4-wheeler, and it has seen players on our local high school football team tie another player up to a cross, blindfolded, while doing unspeakably horrible acts to the boy. All this within the past year.

And then I get on here and read about Hurley, and my only thought was that I had already guessed as much, that he had been telling some mighty tall tales on our BB.

Does anyone else hate going out to eat, because you know that you will have to deal with the rude teenagers hired as wait staff, bus boys, etc? I taught my kids from an early age to extend common curtesy to others, but it seems that they, like their peers, just don't give a damn.

And... Oh, hell, I don't even know where exactly I'm going with this. I just know I'm so bummed out with this train of thought, and I was hoping that there was someone out there who could give me some hope for the future of our youth, cause I ain't seeing a whole hell of a lot of it from where I'm sitting.

I guess I just need to find another place to sit.

Havoc, I need you, Dude!

EOD



[This message has been edited by eve_of_destruction (edited 06-13-2000).]

 

[Havocman]

What can I say E_O_D???

Your friendly neighborhood Havocman has been lamenting some of these same things for quite sometime now. I don't really have to much hope for the future...sorta reminds me of that scene in The Breakfast Club where the counselor and janitor are sharing a beer over the student files and the counselor says, "You know what really worries me is that someday these kids are gonna be looking after you and me." to which the janitor replies, "yeah and then again, maybe they won't."

Don't mean to make you feel any worse hon, but on a daily basis I marvel at just how much farther we as a society are sliding into ruin...and it makes me sad also. But you know, I'm sure it's just the same old lament that adults have had about the younger generations since time began...you just have to know that Noah wasn't to pleased with the way things went after the Ark came to rest upon Ararat...hehehe

Oh well, on a lighter note, I have to say that "The Summer of 42" has always been a secret favorite of mine, both the movie and the book...remember the scene at the theater, when he was agonizing over how to get a feel of his date's breast, then thinking he had "scored", only to find out later that he had been mauling the poor girls shoulder for two hours...lol...what a time those days were eh?

Okay...I'm going to end now hon...and know that a special delivery will be winging it's way to your e-mailbox as soon as I post this...*wink* Chin up girlie

Havoc

 

[Sammyjo]

EOD...I know what you mean. My daughter is only 5, and sometimes I wonder where she picks up some of the crap that comes out of her mouth. I'm sure it's the kids at school. Then, I hear the most amazing thing "Mommy, may I go to (fill in the blank)" MAY I???? I must have taught her something.

My sister is 14, and I see this exact thing you are describing day in and day out. Most recently, she was suspended from school for threatening teachers. Then, they told her not to bother coming back because she was already going to fail 9th grade. So, she spends two weeks out of school....and get this....at her boyfriend's house. Ok, I know that this is my parent's fault. I'm not going to get into a whole "discipline" discussion, but some kids need more discipline than others. I don't know, but I do know this.

I went to private school for most of my life. My grades were above and beyond that of a college student when I was in 4th grade. My needs were met by smaller classrooms and more one on one attention.

I entered public school, and suddenly I was thrown into an environment in which no one cared about school, learning, or being the best they can be. I ended up in a "bad crowd" trying to get them all to go to school and stop causing trouble. I think I helped a few of them.

I don't know what makes me different from my siblings. It may have been the early private schooling that put me on the right track. Or, it could be that my mom had more time for me when I was little. I do know that my sisters and my brother all struggled, not only in school, but in social situations as well.

I don't know if this is what you want to hear, but the fact is...things are getting worse. And it isn't just here in the states. The teens around the world seem to be no different. I hope that with people like us struggling to provide the best opportunities for our children, that we can make a difference...but I'm not holding my breath. Their peers feed into the frenzy (it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch), the government feeds into it (Thou shalt not use physical or verbal means to get your children to obey..or whatever the ruling says), and some of OUR peers feed into it (spanking is wrong, yelling is wrong..blah, blah).

I'm sorry if I've gone to the bad place, but I needed to get some of this out after reading your post.

Smile, it's a new day!!!
Sammy

 

[Shylady]

hi eve,

I just want to tell you not to give up on kids of today, yes there are some scary things out there and terrible sad news everyday.But i also know there are some great kids out there I see them everyday and then there are parents like us that do everything we know to raise good kids.So somewhere the things we teach them are going to matter, especially if we live what we teach! I also know that the media loves to play up the bad kids, seems you never hear of the good ones.
I also realize i have lived a very sheltered life and maybe i live in an ivory tower , but i am going to do all I can to raise my kids with what i consider to be proper values and give them whatever help and support i can.
I know not everyone will agree with me but I think if parents took more time with their kids giving them the love and disicipline they need and deserve things would get better in this country.
i have 2 sister in laws and one brother in law that are teachers and the common theme in their conversations is that when kids get in trouble parents don't punish them but either make excuses or get angry at the teacher and school.
Ok i started rambling here so i will shut up.
But hang in there and lets help these kids and not condemn them all.

 

[Gingersnap]

EOD I hope you don't mind an observation. I don't have children but know someone who works closely with the most troubled of our youth. His take is that a lot of these kids lack the one thing that can change anyone's world a commited caring person. It is easy to slide into "the whole race is going to hell hole". I wonder if you might benefit with some help to deal with your depression. Given your recent experiences it is a normal response. However having lived through that particular nightmare it is important you address it. If you ever need someone to talk with please let me know. I will be there for you to vent to and I do care about you. Please let me know if I can help.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Just quickly... EOD I know how you feel I look around and the youth of today and I realize noone gives a fuck anymore. Unfortunately then I realize I am part of the same group... but at least I try and look after my fellow man. Being 20... 21 on saturday, I have figured it all comes down to parents for better or worse and we seem to be flowing downhill quick!

da Chef

 

[Jeff726]

Why does everyone always blame young people for the problems in society today? What the hell did I ever do wrong? I am 19 and never committed a crime or hurt anyone, yet someone here thinks we are all like that?

 

[Angelique]

Jeff, I don't think that the intention was to say that EVERY young person is responsible for the problems in todays society, rather that the problems seem to stem from the younger generation. Flip on the tv, and often times you DO hear about young kids shooting other students, killing the neighborhood children, etc.

I think it's great the you're a 19 year-old who seems to be on the straight and narrow, but the bottom line is, you're in the minority anymore.

I agree with Sammy on this one...seems to me that there are too many rules and regulations on how I, as a parent, am "supposed" to raise my children. The days of giving a swat on the ass to a misbehaving child are gone; yelling at your kids is considered verbal assault, and God forbid if you do it in public. You'll have Childrens Services Board on your doorstep before you even get home!

I do feel that a lot of the blame should be placed on the parents, however it's a catch-22. With so many single-parent families, and many two parent families where both moms and dads MUST work, little time is left to devote attention to the needs of the children. So what do you do? Does the single mom spend her life on welfare, living in a drug neighborhood where the childrens peers are a bad influence...just so she can keep tabs on them and attempt to raise proper children? (Please note...that was just an example) Should the two parent family struggle to live on one income so that one adult can be around to constantly supervise and discipline the kids, thus causing financial problems between the spouses, and possibly ending in divorce?

I don't believe that there are any easy answers here. What I do believe is that society should put less stress on trying to acquire materialistic items, improve their financial status, and throw away the idea of the "Keeping up with the Jones" syndrome. Start paying more attention to the children while they're growing up...actually spend quality time with them, teach them, and above all, love them. Show them how much you love them by being an affectionate family unit, rather than buying that bike for them to get them off your back.

Bottom line here is that kids become a product of their environment. The better the environment, the better the children.

Ok, enough of my rambling...someone else can take over now.

Oh, btw, Chef...my birthday is on Saturday, too. Wanna party with me? *grin*

 

[Cyra_3]

I agree it is a terrible world we live in now. I am only 21 but some of the things I see kids doing nowadays chill me to the bone for example I would never have dared answer my parents back or bad mouth a teacher I respected them. I didn't shout profanities in the street and I certainly didn't hurt anyone I've never been in a fight in my life.

I personally believe that we should treat children as children, teach them how to respect other people and tell them that maybe people who are older do know better sometimes.

I think that the authorities honestly believe that what they are doing is right for children, you mustn't hit them , treat them with love and care etc. but you can love your child and care for them and still discipline and I believe that every parent knows what form of discipline will work best for their child whether it be leaving them in their room for a few minutes or giving them a smack on the bum.

I don't care for parents who don't teach their children how to respect other human beings and I don't care for the people who let their kids run around in a little skirt and t-shirt in the middle of an English winter as I saw one little girl doing.

I'm not saying that anyone here treats their kids in that way but it is one of the reasons I won't be having them, I don't want them to live in a world where I as an adult am afraid to live.

I'm really sorry I said this but it is one thing that really annoys me about the world.

OK I'm off my soap-box now, after a drink I'll probably feel better.

[This message has been edited by Cyra_3 (edited 06-13-2000).]

 

[Jeff726]

As for the whole discipline thing, I agree you can do it without hitting your child. Striking your child will only alienate them further from you, at least in some cases.

I just think in a violent world, slapping your child's face or spanking them isn't the best idea, at least not an out-and-out whooping anyways.


Just my opinion,

-Jeff

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I agree, Jeff, about the spanking.

Two things -- 1) The good old days weren't that good and 2) We hear more bad stories now because we hear more about everthing in this Age of Information.

I was a young kid in the 60s and 70s, and there was hell of a lot more racial bigotry, smoking, drugs, drinking and sex than there is now.

But, yes, I can't can't understand what makes a kid kill, and I do see an increase in loutishness, and I think that's a direct influence of pop culture catering so much to kids, that they are no longer kids. I can't remmber where it was, but on another post I talked about there are no teenagers anymore, just kids and young, wild adults. No time in between to safely experiment and innocently dip a toe into manhood and womanhood while safely esconsed in youth.

Kids today seem more aware of the pitfalls of drugs and alcohol and wanton sex, but that knowledge has made them grow up faster, and become more cynical, without the emotional maturity to keep their world-weary smarmieness in check. So we get rude busboys and Mallrats who don't smoke as much dope, but also don't want to wait to earn respect, either. Through cable, MTV's "Real Life", porno on the Internet, massive sex and drugs education, titty movies about teens fucking everything under the sun, and 15 year olds running Internt companies the world has educated teenagers to its seemier sides -- how could they not be fouled?

 

[Tamtam]

first off...i have to say that i dont think the world and particularly this nation are in the best shape but to place the majority of the blame on the younger generations is not appropriate. I believe that in the battle of nature versus nuture, nuture will win. In the days of child abuse and parents that just dont give a damn, children have no role models to look up to that act apporpriatly. what can you expect from a 13 y/o whose role model is a wife beater?
And as far as the "good kids" being the minority, i find that hard to beleive. Its the bad kids that get the publicity. How often do you hear on the news about the kids who go to school, get good grades, and do the right thing?? I cant even count the number of "good" kids i know. I am sure that the number of bad kids i can count on my two hands.
Please, dont dismiss my statements as ignorance. I am a 20 y/o college student currently working towards my masters in social work so i can give those kids with out good role models some hope. Since I was 15 ive been volunteering with less advantaged children. I know what they have faced but i also know that they arent bad kids and if someone that cares comes around then they wont end up in jail.

 

[Sammyjo]

It is true that beating your child into submission is NOT the way to get them to behave...but I am sick and fucking tired of some jack ass telling me how to discipline my child.

A friend of the family spanked his daughter for something she did wrong. This was common practice in their home. You do wrong, you get a spanking. Fair enough. One day, he comes home from work and the police are waiting for him. It seems his daughter decided that a few spankings for a wrong SHE committed was considered child abuse. She mentioned it to a teacher, the teacher called the police. This man is now on 10 years probation for this. Meaning, if he is EVER found to have spanked his child again, he will go to jail. HELLO!!!

Another incident...a man allows his daughter to spend the night with a girlfriend. The two girls get picked up for curfew violation. Seems the mother of the other girl wasn't around when the girls got picked up, so the cops call the father of the other girl. He picks both girls up and takes the other girl home. Upon returning home, he spanks his daughter 5 times for her disobedience. She tells her friend, who in turn, tells her mother. The mother calls the cops...the other girl's dad is thrown in jail. It was the other woman's responsibility to watch after the children, and HE gets thrown in jail for spanking? What about neglect? Ugh!!!

I'm sure you can see where this is heading. There are thousands of stories just like the two I mentioned.

I do NOT think that I have the right to beat my child to a pulp. I do think I have the right to spank her butt if she does something wrong. Hell, my father took a belt to my ass on a few occasions, and I'm none the worse for it. I'm tired of hearing all this shit about "I'm a single mom at 12 because my mom didn't watch after me" on the various talk shows (and some I've known in real life). Your mom had to put food on the table...this is where society has got us...lock, stock, and barrel. We can have all the kids we want, but try to instill lessons in them...no, no, we don't want that...

We will continue on like this because some idiot decided that it was NOT alright for us to discipline our children. It's only gonna get worse people.

 

[Cyra_3]

It makes me so sad to see that kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore, they always seem to be trying to impress one another and assume a pseudo adult image.

 

[Cyra_3]

As I said, shouldn't it be the parents responsibility to teach the children. If they think that sending them to their rooom is a good solution then they should do it, if depriving them of something that they like eg. T.V, P.C, Going out with their friends is what would work then do it, the same goes with spanking, if it works then do it. It never did me any harm.

 

[Guest]

EOD - I really am sorry to hear about some of the horrible things that have been going on in your life. You're probably feeling the worst you ever have just now.

It's totally understandable that you see the world as a pretty dark place just now but I'm sure that if you can find people to talk to - close friends, family, professional counsellors, or whoever - that you'll be able to get a lot of your anger and hurt out.

If you can start to feel better in your self, it'll be so much easier for you to see that there's a lot of good in young people today, too - they're not all bad. You can tell just from talking to some of them on the net that they care as much as the older generations about other people and the world around them.

It's true - society's a bit fucked up just now. I think that's 'cause things are changing. Everyone's a bit unsure about the future. But it's going to get better once things settle down. There's always a bit of uncertainty and strife at the start of a new century. We've just moved into a new millennium that a lot of the doom-mongers were telling us we wouldn't even make it to.

Don't give up hope, Eve. I'm sure things are going to get a lot better for you.

take care

rog
xx



[This message has been edited by roger simian (edited 06-13-2000).]

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Jeff726:
As for the whole discipline thing, I agree you can do it without hitting your child. Striking your child will only alienate them further from you, at least in some cases.

I'm of the opinion that you can no more train a child to obey without some form of corporal punishment than you can train a puppy withiot smacking it's nose.

Just as with training a puppy, the punishment must be closely associated with the behavior being punished. "Wait 'til your father gets home." is NOT a viable option. at least in the very early years.

Originally posted by Jeff726:
I just think in a violent world, slapping your child's face or spanking them isn't the best idea, at least not an out-and-out whooping anyways.

Slapping the face, or hitting a child anywhere in the head is a dangerous thing to do. It's usually a result of trying to apply discipline when angry. And old-fashioned behind-the-woodshed thrashing is often counterproductive as well.

Every child is different. The appropriate punishment method has to be chosen carefully. However, in the very early years when the child's personality is just starting to form, before the reasoning and communication skills develop, a judicious application of corporal punishment is the only way to get the idea across. If the seeds of discipline aren't planted then, they won't prosper if planted later.

The key word above, is Judicious.

Timing of a swat is much more important than force or numbers. If punishment isn't closely associated with what it's being administered for then it's retribution and not punishment.

Properly applied and consistantly applied, at an early age, corporal punishment can reduce the need for ANY form of punishment later in life.

Parents must establish themselves as Pack Leaders on an instinctive level at an early age. If they do, parenting is easy until the age when it's time to challenge the pack leaders. Good communications in the easy years will minimze problems even then.

Beating a teenager does nothing except make your arm tired. Thumping a toddler gently on the bone behind the ear (so it sounds like you tried to take their head off) will pay lasting dividends so you'll never have a reson to want to beat your teenager senseless.

<soapbox mode off>

 

[Lasher]

It's true - society's a bit fucked up just now. I think that's 'cause things are changing. Everyone's a bit unsure about the future.

I think it's just the nature of our society that any given generation tends to look at the one that follows and says, "God, these kids are fucked up - we were never this bad". It's just another of those healthy rationalizations that allows you to A) feel better about yourself and what you were unable to accomplish, and B) Transfer any guilt you feel about your own underachievement to someone else.

This has especially been true throughout the 20th Century. The pace of change became so radical, and the changes so dynamic, that you can look from decade to decade and see massive changes in the way people, especially the youth of any given time, thought and acted.

It takes absolutely no stretch of the imagination to think of someone who had grown up in the 1940s speaking thusly of the youth of the 1950s, "God, we accomplished so much - Hell, we beat the fucking Nazi's - and now all these damn kids want to do is zip around in their damn hot rods and listen to god awful Elvis Presley. This sure as hell isn't why I stormed the beaches at Normandy, Christ, when I was that age...." And you can change the dates and make the words a little different, but it's almost always gonna sound the same.

I look around, and other than different styles of dress and different music and a different collection of glamourous icons, I don't see alot of difference between kids today and when I was a teenager 15 or so yrs ago. I'm guessing if I'd had access to cellular phones and the internet and Kid Rock and Jennifer Love Hewitt then, I'd be an awful damn lot like the kids of today.

Honestly, this whole thread reminds me of a line from "The Right Stuff".... "I don't think we're saying anything new here. I think we're just saying the same things, that need to be said, over and over and over...".

And before you think to harshly about the kids of today, think back to just how fucked up you were when you were a teenager. A big part of being that age is being so damn sure that you have all the answers. You don't trully become and adult until the day you realize that you don't have the answers and aren't afraid to admit that to yourself. That's my definition of maturity.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Lasher99:
I look around, and other than different styles of dress and different music and a different collection of glamourous icons, I don't see alot of difference between kids today and when I was a teenager 15 or so yrs ago.

From the perspective of a child of the fifties, I don't see much difference in the tastes in music and styles of dress between now and when I was young. The particulars of specific songs and fit of the clothes are superficially different, but the 'rebellious mode' is the same.

What I see that's disturbingly different from all of the teenage generations I've seen pass by, is the increased level of anomy in the last ten years or so.

There is a big difference between wearing pants three sizes too big, and shooting your teacher in the face because he sent you home from school or failed you in his course for not doing the work.

I don't know what is missing in the lives of the children who do things like that. blaming it all on a lack of discipline in their childhood is really a copout. There is no one answer that will reverse this disturbing trend.

All we can do is raise our own children the best we can, teaching them to take responsibility for their own actions and respect for others.

Until our entire society swings away from the anomy and apathy that is rampant, there will tragedies like the Columbine shootings.

 

[*Eve*]

I know how you feel sometimes Eve. I sometimes look at kids today and I share your sentiments. I think society as a whole has gotten away from the fundementals of common courtesy, but there is hope. I see it all the time. There's a girl that I was talking to on the train the other day on my way to work and she had to be either 17 or 18. We started talking and she was telling me that she was graduating as valedictorian in her high school this week and she would be attending Duke University in the fall on a full scholarship. She then told me where she lived and it surpised me when she name one of the worst parts in DC. That was just amazing to me because so many people use their environment as an excuse for not succeeding but this girl obviously didn't. My little brothers, 16 and 10 are both honor roll students, athletes, popular, and they're doing great things. My 16 year old brother volunteers his time coaching a little league football team and that's pretty neat considering a lot of guys his age would rather be hanging out on the street corner. The 10 year old claims he'll be the next Dieon Saunders. I know it sounds like I'm bragging and maybe I am. I'm very proud of them, but it brings us to two conclusions.
One, is that many kids are constantly in trouble today because they have no goals, and when you don't have those you're life and your attitude will show it.
Two is that there are young people doing positive things with their lives and instead of looking towards the bad things lets look to the good things they do. I know that more often than not we hear the negative side of GenX but the media wouldn't doesn't make the big buck reporting about the good things. Something to think about.

Hang in there my goddess twin!!

 

[Earthgoddess]

I realize that I may offend some people out there,but here goes...
Please do not spank, even the American Academy of Pediatrics now states that spanking is violence not discipline.
I was spanked 3 times as a child for an intensely dangerous act involving scissors and my toddler sister's hair...I kept finding new and different scissors and after cutting her hair I proceeded to cut holes in all of our brand new screens. I do not remember feeling any remorse only anger and later my father apologized for hitting me because he felt that physical discipline was wrong. My son has been spanked twice, 2 years ago-once for pushing me into the bathtub as I scrubbed it-I hit my head and spanked him out of anger. The second time was for kicking and hitting me during a tantrum,once again out of anger I spanked him. Hitting a child for hitting you is a redundancy. I called Parent's Anonymous because I was so upset that I had touched my son in anger...They provided me with tons of literature and discipline methods...To discipline is to teach not to punish, and I was a single mom working two jobs and going to school, so I know what it is to be frustrated and exhausted. I also know that my son learns from my example, and screaming and hitting teaches only dangerous lessons. I realize that everyone has the freedom to discipline and I admit that the government has interferred in the privacy of a few parents, due to reported cases of child abuse. I also admit that sometimes a case of discipline is read by school or a neighbor as abuse. I would rather that we err on the side of caution than have children go unprotected. I have two dear frinds who were falsely accused of abuse-one in a divorce case and one in a neighborly vendetta. It was painful and embarrasing for the parents, but both parents agreed that if indeed they were secret abusers they should have been caught. Too many children lose their childhoods due to abuse, and my friends understood the reasoning behind the reactions of Social Services. I am sure that there are horror stories in which totally innocent people are persecuted for crimes they never committed,but if it saves the live of one child? Is that too high a price?
I am climbing down now,here is the soap box for the next person.

 

[Golden]

wow! lot's of good stuff here folks. Not much for me to add escept 2 bits:

1 - E_o_D - sister - at least you have found somewhere to talk and share and may I add my name to the long roll of people volunteering a shoulder to cry on, a big hug, and offering you someplace where you can smash a few plates too and have a good YELL!

Much of what you say about kids today is so true; but I think my generation - grew up 60s/70s - was pretty tough too.

2 - I at least have two boys I am really proud of; they are 14 and 11. Next door - and we live in an urban terrace so were are talking real next door - the three kids get on really well with mine and they are constantly in one garden or the other: meanwhile the parents row at high volume and frequency, and both hit each other regularly. Last Saturday's barney led to the parents each smashing a window - lucky no one was hurt as the glass rained into the garden below. They were roaring drunk, calling each other every combination of fuck and cunt ... for two hours. So I picked up the little 8 year old girl and sat her in front of our tv with my two boys as minders for the evening. I think my two appreciate the loving environment they live in; and it is good for them also to see how others have to suffer. I also see their pain and frustration when they see their friends - the kids next door - caught up in what the parents are up to. Which I think is my point - so many adults set a really poor example to kids.

oh and 3 - I have 26 13-14 year old boys in the rugby club squad I manage and help to coach. They are not all good as gold; often they are difficult; but each has great character and spirit and generosity and a real team ethic, and I am just glad to have the chance to contribute to their development. I'm worried about maybe two of them; I know for sure some of them have school friends already into alcohol and drugs; but I'd be surprised if any of this group goes off the rails.

 

[Gingersnap]

I believe it was Socrates who made a similar statement in what, the year 400? THat he feared for society as a whole based on his obsevations of the youth of his time..Never had he seen such rude and rebellious youth and yakety yak...
I see death and violence everyday. It is part of my work. I was once a wild kid on the streets without anyone to care. My family turned their collective backs on me. I am glad now that they did beause they did not or could not love me. Many terrible things happened to me as a very young child.
I still sleep walk as a result of it. Despite all the violence and hurt I still believe that people given the chance and this includes kids, will take the higher road. I believe what is lacking in so many homes today is a belief in the essential goodness of people. You can get desensitized to violence esp kids. I can't watch films that depict this in surround sound detail. I remember seeing Lord of the Flies at 13 and being sickened by it. Does anyone remember Thomas Aquinas saying give me the child till seven and I give you the man... If you want the world to be different then be like Golden who coaches or anything that will give you a chance to have a realtionship with kids. Be consistant and care enough to make rules and have consequences when they break them. In other words get off the oh ain't it horrible couch and do just one thing a week to make it different. Someone did that for me and it changed my whole world. I got my GED then went to college and I have my Masters. EOD I am here for you just say the word......

 

[Arkane]

Eve
I know what you mean by the disappointment with the younger generation. I know that it drives me crazy every day just looking at the news and trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I do know one thing that the kids that are on the news are the exception not the rule, most of the kids today are good kids its just the 5% that the news talks about that are the genetically deficient...... I have two teenagers myself and they drive me crazy but I know that one day things will change, they will get over being assholes (or whatever).

Arkane

 

[Guest]

I agree with Gingersnap, Golden & *Eve* that if a kid growing up in tough surroundings is shown that there really is a better way to live their life, they'll tend to gravitate towards that. With a good role-model in their life, someone who is strong, fair and consistent, they'll learn how to change and make something more of their lives.

As far as discipline, children need to learn boundaries when they are growing up. They need to learn which behaviour is accepted by society and which isn't. It's a natural stage of human develop for children to test these boundaries, see how far they can push their parents with their bad behaviour. If they do something naughty and they aren't pulled up on it, the next time they are going to do something even worse. If they eventually discover that there are NO boundaries and that whatever they do is fine, this is going to do real damage to their development.

It's a terrifying thing to a child not to have boundaries. A world without rules and a definite structure is incredibly frightening. Unless someone else - another family member, a teacher, or whoever teaches them these rules, they are liable to grow up with some kind of personality disorder.

The most extreme example of this in society is the sociopath or psychopath - someone who may be physically and mentally fairly mature but who is acting with the personality of a child. They have an immature personality.

If you think of a kid who wants a pony and throws a tantrum 'cause her parents won't buy her it, that's how someone with an extreme personality disorder behaves. They can't show empathy for others, 'cause they still see themselves as being the centre of the universe (like a kid does). They haven't been taught the boundaries that the rest of society lives by, so they don't bother with any of those rules - to steal, murder and abuse means nothing to them. They feel no remorse - they haven't learned to feel bad about hurting other people. Most people can put up with a little hardship knowing that it's going to pay off in the future - going to college might be a pain in the ass but you know it's going to pay off for you in the long-term. But a sociopath can't do that. They want INSTANT gratification. Rather than work in a job long enough to earn a little money, they're more likely to shoot someone and take THEIR money. If they don't get this immediate gratification, they're going to throw a tantrum, just like a child, only this is going to be one fucking terrifying tantrum! Sociopaths also have a deep hatred for authority figures - teachers, students, the police, the government - 'cause these are the people who are enforcing the rules that they haven't learned how to follow. They are also extremely jealous of other people's success (just like two brothers fighting over a present). They despise people who are more popular than themselves, have more money or whatever. (I think this is why there seem to be so many highschool shootings - authority figures and anger towards other, more popular, students.)

Anyway, I think that the majority of people commiting terrible crimes today have some kind of personality disorder. (Some of them may have a psychiatric illness - like schizophrenia or bi-polar affective disorder - but that's a completely different condition.)

Basically, I think this is because they haven't been taught boundaries when they are young and they haven't been shown unconditional love.

I think that, like Gingersnap mentioned, consistency is one of the most important things. A child should never be punished out of anger - that's abuse, whether it's physical, emotional or psychological punishment. It is also inconsistent because it is based on the parent's mood at that given time, not the seriousness of what the kid's done. The boundaries are unclear if stealing money from your brother's piggy bank gets a chuckle and a shake of the head one time but another time prompts a terrifying violent outburst from the parent.

Raising your voice and standing firm on a subject, is probably enough to get the message home that whatever the child is doing is unnacceptable.

Another thing about punishment is that the kid should know they're being punished for what they've done but that the parent or guardian still loves them unconditionally regardless of this. Once they've had their row you should probably give them a hug to show to them that you still love them.

rog