The 'D' word

[Lord DragonsWing]

Date. Hm, thought the word referred to a particular type of fruit. Nonetheless, I agree with a few things already said particularly the fact that the word 'date' conjures up the image of a second 'date' and the immediate feeling that if I say yes to a date, then I am also saying yes to the possibility of intimacy. If I decide after the 'date' that I don't want anything further to happen, then I have to hurt someone. Date implies more than a friendly dinner.

As for dinner RG - personally, I do not know why men take women to dinner on a first date. I prefer to suggest appetizers and drinks in a funky place with amazing atmosphere and great music playing in the background for a few reasons:

1) What if you enjoy her company, but dinner is over? You give her an opportunity to escape before she's drunk

2) What if you find you don't particularly enjoy her company and are stuck for three hours in a restaurant?

3) Appetizers, you can have as many as you like, and it can go as long or as short as you want it.

4) Appetizers, you end up sharing , and deciding together, which is a sly way to make it a date.

5) How cool is that? Appetizers, music, conversation and drinks, possibly even going to a few different places, or maybe just so engaged that you close the place.

6) Appetizers are much more casual than a formal dinner.

"Apps or Sassafraz? 101", by Charley.

That's the best way I've seen. Charley definitely has the right idea. In my opinion. When I use to go out that's the way I asked a woman out. I never used the date word. Just how about some snacks and a glass of wine at the jazz club? It always ended in a fun evening. Even if I didn't care to ask her out again, we had good conversation and were friends. There was no bad feelings if the "date" didn't work out.

Now that doormouse is my life. She's my appetizer, main meal and dessert.

 

[doormouse]

Edit: Never mind.

I need air. Back to writing.

 

[sweetnpetite]

'D' for Declare

What I think is that when you say 'date' it seems to imply that you are 'dating' --or in otherwords, that you are exclusive or an item. By needing to clarify that it's really a date you could end up making her feel like you are staking your claim on her. (Sort of like editors who don't accept multiple submissions or quiries- she doesnt' want to take herself 'off the market' or give up her independance just yet.) Some people expect exclusivity from the begining and some don't, but it's easier to make it clear that you are not exlusive, just by stating 'it's not a date.'

If it's a date and you decide that you don't want to be 'dating' afterwords, you basicly have to 'break up.' In otherwords, when you call it a date, you eliminate the easy out clause, AND you up the stakes.

If you go out for dinner with a friend (where there might be a budding attraction) and it doesn't lead to more (ie, a second date), you just continue on as friends as if the 'date' never happened. But when you *call* it a date, you put the relationship on a different level and it's harder to go back down to the friendship level. It feels like a demotion. Think about it, how many times do you go on a date that doesn't work out and then hang out w/ the person the next day?

I would recomend, if you want it to be a 'date' without the pressure, invite her to 'dinner' (vs. 'date') and take her somewhere a notch or too above the places you'd hang out as friends (let her know it's a nice place so she can dress appropriatly) put on your best date manners (pulling out her chair) w/out the worste date behavior (lying to make yourself look better) work in some friendly touches (to see how she responds) and *don't* kiss her goodnight. (a friendly hug perhaps) If the romantic feelings seem to take off, let her know you'd like to do it again and lather rinse repeat. (w/ a friend, don't open mouth kiss unless you are absolutly certain. I would start w/ a kiss on the cheek, move to a lip peck (there you will be able to tell if she's leaning in for more, is totally turned off, or needs a little more wining and dining- and still claim that it was just a 'friendly' goodbye should you need to save face.

After you've progressed to the open mouthed kiss, you might be able to pull off calling it a date or better yet, just 'going out.' --not as in 'so are we going out now?' but as in 'do you want to go out again on Friday?'

That's my advice. Hope it helps.

 

[doormouse]

Okay, three times, sorry,

Please remove that line LDW.

I won't ask again.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Hell I was told last year by one woman I went out with that she didn't want to see me again because I didn't drag her back to my place for sex. But every time I touched her that night she pulled away. Someone explain that to me.

OK

there are two kinds of pulling away. There is 'No." and there is 'try again later. I don't want to be (or have you think I'm) to easy.

If she smiles shyly and brushes you away lighly its 'try again later.' Which means in a minute or two and w/ subtlty. NOT grab her and say 'you say no, but your eyes are telling me yes!'

You've got to be subtle, persistent AND the right mix of caveman and gentleman. Easy? No. Possible? Yes.

 

[sweetnpetite]

The 'Date' word seems to suggest some sort of attachment. If you say 'we're dating' that seems to lead on to 'we're in a relationship' and women don't want to pin themselves down with the word 'date' as it might trap them later on.

I agree. I think it's that a lot more than the idea that you might expect sex. If a guy expects sex you can write him off as a jerk and you don't have to worry about hurting his feelings. If a guy expects a relationship that's a lot harder to deal with. If you don't- that makes you the bad guy.

I don't think woman these days are too concerned that a man might expect sex in exchange for buying dinner. We'd just tell him where to go as soon as that became aparent and find our own way home.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I do have a sense the word 'date' is passe, like 'necking' on the stoop. I think it connotes either-- first (and possibly last) step towards getting laid, or first step towards a commitment (exclusive 'dating').

Another use of the word date: first date -one of the most anxiety inducing words (or phrases) in the english language- yes, it's like 'job interview.' It sounds (to many) more like work than fun.

Imagine you go out to dinner a few times and *then* you happen to start calling it a date. It's not the dreaded first date, you already had that w/ out really realizing it!

Date is also frequently used in the following dreaded phrase:blind date.

Is it any wonder some don't like it?

Also, insisting that she clarify for you that it's really a 'date' can make you seem too needy or insecure. We want a man who can appreciate subtltey (hey, I know- but it's too early to disalusion her already). It also gives us a better feeling that if we *do* sleep with you, you will be able to read between the lines and pick up on our body language and therefor be better in bed

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Wow, this whole thing brings me back a little.

Okay, rgraham, the problem for a guy like you who isn't the horndog masses of misogynistic lust that so many idiots who happen to be male are, is that girls don't believe it at first so you have to overcompensate. I remember how the woman I first fell in love with was lost to me forever, because my only preparation for the world of romance was Shakespeare plays (it took a while to finally temper that chivalrous honesty about non-sexual love interest to conform with contemporary habits (though I don't seem to date that much any way because I just so happen not to date to fuck)).

Anyway, overcompensate, conform to the stupid habits and finally you'll be allowed to reveal yourself as earnest and nice and not "just like every other guy". It's a small price to play, but a neccesary one.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Even if you think it's silly, unreasonable, stupid, unjustified or that women are being irrational, or over-reacting or that it *shouldn't* cause such and such a reaction--- IF calling in a DATE isn't working- Stop!

No point in arguing weather it should bother women-- do what gets results and stop doing what clearly doesn't work. You'll surely never get a date by trying to convince a girl that it's just a harmles word and doesn't hold all the deap and scary meaning that she's attributing to it.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Lucifer,

I'm not sure I understand your use of 'overcompensate' in this context. Are you proposing he feigns conceit by presenting himself as a typical horndog? Or was your intent to suggest ambivalence?

Apologies for the confusion.

 

[rgraham666]

Thanks for the input, folks.

S&P, I have a great deal of trouble with 'subtlety'.

First, is that what I call my 'social dyslexia' gets in the way. To me, a great deal of 'social' stuff is beyond my understanding. Even when explained to me in detail, I still end up going "what?"

Just starting this thread demonstrates this.

So, I don't think I'm capable of doing anything other than simple, and thus rather blunt, actions when it comes to social stuff.

I also have trouble with the whole idea of 'subtlety'. To me, it's a good synonym for 'vague'. It means I have to spend a lot of time guessing 'What exactly is meant by this?' I feel I spend more time trying to figure out what the other person means, rather than enjoying a good time with someone I care about.

I also think 'subtlety' is a good way of lying to the other person, and to yourself.

 

[sweetnpetite]

S&P, I have a great deal of trouble with 'subtlety'.



I also have trouble with the whole idea of 'subtlety'. To me, it's a good synonym for 'vague'. It means I have to spend a lot of time guessing 'What exactly is meant by this?' I feel I spend more time trying to figure out what the other person means, rather than enjoying a good time with someone I care about.

So don't try. You don't *have* to analize, just enjoy yourself at let things happen as they happen.

I also think 'subtlety' is a good way of lying to the other person, and to yourself.

Probably, but people lie. To quote "When Harry Met Sally" --'Our society is based on lies, our art is based on lies. Do you really think Billy Joel really loved her just the way she was?'

Yes we lie to ourselves- especially women. (I can't really speak for men) We lie to ourselves when we say it's not a date, when we say we are just coming in for a drink, when we say we're not that kind of girl, or that we don't 'usually do this type of thing.'

If you want to get anywhere with women, you've got to realize that we don't want to verbalize that we really want to do what we've been taught we aren't supposed to do or want to do. If we are forced to admit that we are going to do it or that we want to, we are very likely *not* going to do it after all. [he, he- I read that in Maxim, but it's so true]

Of course there are exceptions but most of us deep down inside still carry at least a trace of 'good girls don't- and you want to be a good girl right?'

I understand social dyslexia. I have it too. I have a real hard time doing things because 'it's the way it's done' when it doesn't make sence to me on any practicle way. I don't think it's that we can't see social conventions so much as we have a special power (that others don't seem to have) of seeing through them, of seeing that that's all they are, when others seem to take them as holy writ. ('Because it's done that way' seems sacred and obvious to them, silly and pointless to us.)

We have to make an effort to learn the rules (including the subtleies). We don't have to follow all of them, but we should at least know when it is to our advantage to do so. Take chess. The rules on one hand may seem arbitrary, we could just as easily move the rooks in a diagonal direction. With rules we have some idea what to expect-- but can still be suprised. We can engage socially (playing the game) because we have a shared base of rules. But if we started ignoring the rules without reason, we wouldn't be able to enjoy the game.

Respectfully and Affectionaly,

Sweet.

 

[Boota]

Fuck subtelty. It's overrated and usually gets you ignored. It seems to me that the only problem you're having is the wording. If the word "date" scares them, just say, "Wanna play some putt-putt?" or "Let's get some coffee." Maybe don't try to plan a date in advance. Take more of a 'what are you doing right this second?' approach. If coffee, or whatever, is enjoyable then ask for another chance to see her. Maybe dinner? Maybe drinks? Maybe some rough, demeaning sex? Play it by ear.

 

[gauchecritic]

Right. you're going to have to bear with me here. I just thought of something tonight and instead of writing it down I just carried on drinking.

Food. It's to do with food. As I understand it, at certain times and in certain cultures eating was or is a solo pursuit, much the same as wanking and #2s.

Eating is/can be a very, very sensual thing.

Tying in with my previous post about body language. Apparently when in conversation, open arms means an open mind, and even if you have a closed mind to the conversant, unfolding your arms from a defiant stance will make you more receptive. (this goes with the theory of muscles thinking rather than brain thinking)

Ok. Now go with me on this. You are in a bar. You are chatting with a person. (plain ordinary conversation) and you are eating crisps (potato chips) or salted nuts. This, apart from making you thirsty will also do something else. You will inevitably lick your lips Whether you intend it to be or not, this is a sexual approach. Not only that, but it will also tend to make your date sexually attractive.

I'm pretty certain that women are more consciously aware, in advance of situations such as this. (Men tend to be a lot more subconscious)

So you ask a girl out for a meal and she will not think about sparkling conversation or getting drunk on wine, she will (subconsciously) be aware of the effect of being watched whilst eating, and the unintended signals that she will transmit, and be swayed by.

Even lifting a glass (by the stem or fingers around the rim) is a minefield of unintended but gratefully received signals of sexual advance.

Make of that what you will.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

So you ask a girl out for a meal and she will not think about sparkling conversation or getting drunk on wine, she will (subconsciously) be aware of the effect of being watched whilst eating, and the unintended signals that she will transmit, and be swayed by.

Gauche, I have not had a formal dinner date in a couple years but I've had plenty in my life and never once did I think the way you propose. I am awfully self-conscious and hate meeting someone in a public place. In a restaurant I am only concerned with keeping the napkin on my lap, not dribbling my wine, not making a general mess at table. It takes a while before I am comfortable enough to flirt, speak with my body, etc., usually longer than an evening's dinner time.

However, cyber dates are another matter.

Perdita