The Cost of Iraq

[dr_mabeuse]

A Billion dollars a month is the figure I heard.

That's an American billion, or a thousand million, not a British billion.

What if we'd put that money into energy research?

 

[The_Darkness]

A Billion dollars a month is the figure I heard.

That's an American billion, or a thousand million, not a British billion.

What if we'd put that money into energy research?

The petrolium industry as we know it would collapse and in order to compensate for the loss of business for oil-based products such as gasoline, motor oil, etc., prices on other things such as plastics and textiles would sky rocket. Cheap electricty, sure. 2500 dollars for a bottom-shelf computer....not an unrealistic side effect.

But yes, Doc....it's a staggering figure.

 

[impressive]

What if we'd put that money into energy research?

Or health care ... or poverty ... or famine ... or peace ...

 

[The_Darkness]

Or health care ... or poverty ... or famine ... or peace ...

I like all of those, too. Particularly health care. I don't care if I live to be 27 or 97, I just want to be in good shape when I die....all things considered.

Peace is a dream. So long as people have ambition, there will never be such a thing as peace in human civilization, and if we do have it, it won't be for long.

 

[Pure]

money

apparently the Army corps of engineers had its budget cut last year. now the political leaders would like them to help rebuild the levees around N. O. so i ask, suppose a few billion had actually been spent on disaster preparedness.?

 

[The_Darkness]

apparently the Army corps of engineers had its budget cut last year. now the political leaders would like them to help rebuild the levees around N. O. so i ask, suppose a few billion had actually been spent on disaster preparedness.?

One can only be so prepared. That was a hell of a pounding that LA, MS, and AL just took. They had sea-walls and leeves up, but they just weren't quite good enough. Like the rivers around here during the 1993 flood. There were dikes, levees, protection along the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers....just not quite enough.

That question boils down to "when is enough, enough?"

 

[Guest]

EDIT: Sorry. I swore I wasn't going to do this anymore.

 

[The_Darkness]

I agree. We should just let the insurgents have Iraq. They were part of Hussiens regime and know best how to run their country. Sure they'll kill all the Kurds and Shiites, but those people weren't worth a tinkers damn anyway. If they are too stupid to move out of the desert and go where there's food then genocide might just be the best thing for them. And once the insurgents are done there they can over run Iran too. That's another country that fucked us in the past. They can all die, too. Right? And Turkey, those people are all gonna die of lung cancer from all their smoking anyway. We'd be doing them a favor. Hell, the terorists can have that whole part of the world, those people aren't worth saving. It's more a problem for Europe to deal with, they're closer.

Besides, if we pull out of Iraq then the terrorists will be happy and they'll leave us alone, right? We won't have to worry about anyone terorizing the US if we pull out of the middle east.

I'll tell you, though, if it happens I'm running out and selling everything I own to invest in American oil companies because I know without any oil coming in from the middle east they'll jack the price of gas up higher than a giraffe's ass and if I can get in before it happens I'll be a fuckin' rich man. (/sarcastic rant)

Ya know it amazes me that when a tidal wave washes away a fourth of southern Asia, there is an outcry that we are not spending enough money to help those people. But when a sadistic dictator kills several thousand of his own people a year and torture thousands more, it's not our problem.

But, hey, my priorities are all fucked up. What do I know.

Easy there, buddy.....you're not wrong, but still....

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'd like to know how that figure was arrived at. How much of it is salary to forces we would have been paying any way? How much of it is figured as maintenance and upkeep on vehicles and air craft we would have been paying anyway?

How much of it is figured as "lost" production from guardsmen or reserves called up?

Basically, are you looking at a hard figure that has factored out the general costs that would be paid anyway? Or is it a figure driven up by inclusion of everything the people putting it out can come up with?

In a low intensity conflict like Iraq has become, I don't think salary, shells, food, gas and all direct costs run to a billion a month.

 

[The_Darkness]

I'd like to know how that figure was arrived at. How much of it is salary to forces we would have been paying any way? How much of it is figured as maintenance and upkeep on vehicles and air craft we would have been paying anyway?

How much of it is figured as "lost" production from guardsmen or reserves called up?

Basically, are you looking at a hard figure that has factored out the general costs that would be paid anyway? Or is it a figure driven up by inclusion of everything the people putting it out can come up with?

In a low intensity conflict like Iraq has become, I don't think salary, shells, food, gas and all direct costs run to a billion a month.

Very good question....though, you may be on to something with the pay deal. If your standard soldier recieves, say (just for arguement's sake) 2500 a month, and we have 125,000 active soldiers in Iraq (not counting State's-side assitance for communication, bookkeeping, logistics, etc) that's 312,500,000 in salary alone...damn near 1/3 of their projected billion.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Very good question....though, you may be on to something with the pay deal. If your standard soldier recieves, say (just for arguement's sake) 2500 a month, and we have 125,000 active soldiers in Iraq (not counting State's-side assitance for communication, bookkeeping, logistics, etc) that's 312,500,000 in salary alone...damn near 1/3 of their projected billion.

It would seem only logical if you were calculating the cost of the war, the only salary you could count would be hazardous duty pay and over seas pay for troops moved in from the US. You could include pay for guardsmen and Reserves, but you would have to subtract what they were payed regularly.

You could really jack up a figure if you include the cost of bunker fuel and aviation gas, but since the task forces are at sea anyway, you would have to scale that back to include only ships that would normally be in home ports and planes that would have been grounded. Of course you could include all combat sorties above & beyond the regular hours in training flights they spend aloft.

But that would take a very comprehensive study and application of a lot of refined data.

 

[rgraham666]

Wars are expensive.

Those who use the military skillfully do not raise troops twice and do not provide food three times.

Also

When resources are exhausted then levies are made under pressure. When power and resources are exhausted, then the homeland is drained. The common people are deprived of seventy percent of their budget, while the government's expense for equipment amounts to sixty percent of its budget.

Both quotes from Sun Tzu circa 500BC.

Most relevant.

So the important thing in a military operation is victory, not persistence.

The Shrubbies deluded themselves and us. We're paying the price now. Silly of us to bitch in my opinion.

Oh and the figure I read today is that Iraq and Afghanistan between them cost $6.2 billion a month. I can't think that high so it means little to me.

 

[Liar]

Or health care ... or poverty ... or famine ... or peace ...

Ok, to be fair... that last one is what they are trying to do. At least officially. That it's way harder than they could imagine...well that's another story.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'd like to know how that figure was arrived at.

That's a good question, and I honestly don't remember where I heard it. If anyone has a better figure, I'm willing to entertain it.

A billion/month comes out to about 33 million/day (no duh!). When you factor in the cost of naval and air support and maintenance of facilities (what does it cost to operate an aircraft carrier/day?), it doesn't seem impossible.

For the record, I'm not for cutting and running either. We've got our foot in it good, and now we have to stay, so I'm with George on that one.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

A Billion dollars a month is the figure I heard.

That's an American billion, or a thousand million, not a British billion.

What if we'd put that money into energy research?

But we didn't. We spent it on Iraq. I don't mean to be rude, but looking back... It's wasted time here.

Or health care ... or poverty ... or famine ... or peace ...

It wouldn't have been spent on these things anyway, regardless of who was in office.

But let's get to this other point: What's the difference between an American and a British billion?

Q_C

 

[The_Darkness]

But we didn't. We spent it on Iraq. I don't mean to be rude, but looking back... It's wasted time here.



It wouldn't have been spent on these things anyway, regardless of who was in office.

But let's get to this other point: What's the difference between an American and a British billion?

Q_C

Man, there was an entire thread devoted to that, and it boils down to as such. here in the states, we're so damn science minded (we were founded by masons and madmen, afterall....) that we simplified the numbering system. We have tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, pentillions, etc.

British use another system that I'm not completely clear of the origin of. They have the first few numbers like us: 1,000 is one thousand, 100,000 is one hundred thousand, 1,000,000 is a billion (or a thousand thousands), but 1,000,000,000 to us is a billion, but to the UK, it's 1,000 Million.

Check me if I'm wrong, but the numbering system progresses like that, does it not?
1,000,000,000 = 1,000 Million
10,000,000,000 = 10,000 Million
100,000,000,000 = 100,000 Million
1,000,000,000,000 = 1 (British) Billion
10,000,000,000,000 = 10 Billion
100,000,000,000,000 = 100 Billion
1,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000 Billion
10,000,000,000,000,000 = 10,000 Billion
100,000,000,000,000,000 = 100,000 Billion
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1,000,000 Billion (One Million Billion?)

I don't know if that progression is right, but it is the case that 1 Billion US is 1000 Million UK. It's simply the semantics of numbering.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

1,000,000 is a billion (or a thousand thousands), but 1,000,000,000 to us is a billion, but to the UK, it's 1,000 Million.

I think you misspoke. 1,000,000 is a "million" in both systems.

The rest is correct. What the US calls "a billion" is called "a thousand million" in the British system. It's 1,000,000,000 (or 10^9).

1,000,000,000,000 (or 10^12) is a "trillion" in the US. I don't know what it is in the British system.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

That's a good question, and I honestly don't remember where I heard it. If anyone has a better figure, I'm willing to entertain it.

A billion/month comes out to about 33 million/day (no duh!). When you factor in the cost of naval and air support and maintenance of facilities (what does it cost to operate an aircraft carrier/day?), it doesn't seem impossible.

For the record, I'm not for cutting and running either. We've got our foot in it good, and now we have to stay, so I'm with George on that one.

You can't include the carrier task forces Doc. IIRC they are at sea most of the time, rotating through their stations and back home. If one was due to be rotated back to the US and was sent to the gulf instead, then you could, but if the one usually on station in the Med or indian ocean was simplt moved to the gulf, then you could only count the combat sorties flown, fuel above and beyond training levels, Aircraft maintenance and fuel only for combat missions above the normal combeat air patrol and regular traiing, salary only if hazardous duty pay is being paid, etc.

For the record, I'm not saying the number is wrong or overinflated. Just wondering how it was calculated. It seems exorbitant to me, but hen again, numbers of dollars running into the millions are too much for me to really wrap my head around.