The Consitution of the US

[AsylumSeeker]

Had some time at work and so did a bit of research.

Especially in light of recent political events.

There are 27 amendments to the Constitution. The first 10 are referred to as the Bill of Rights. I won't admit I never knew this but I will admit I did not recollect these facts.

There are others, of course. I thought it appropriate to spend a little time researching what this holiday is all about. All I can do is wonder at the foresight our forefeathers exibited in their planning and be encouraged.

Be encouraged. And enjoy this holiday.

And so this thread meets the requirements of the forum, I'd love to edit personal accounts of the signing of the Constitution for those who were there.

 

[statsultan]

Had some time at work and so did a bit of research.

Especially in light of recent political events.

There are 27 amendments to the Constitution. The first 10 are referred to as the Bill of Rights. I won't admit I never knew this but I will admit I did not recollect these facts.

There are others, of course. I thought it appropriate to spend a little time researching what this holiday is all about. All I can do is wonder at the foresight our forefeathers exibited in their planning and be encouraged.

Be encouraged. And enjoy this holiday.

And so this thread meets the requirements of the forum, I'd love to edit personal accounts of the signing of the Constitution for those who were there.

I'm going to be a little nitpicky and point out that 4th of July celebrates the signing of the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Jefferson sometimes gets some criticisms, even for the Declaration - that he borrowed the ideas placed in the Declaration, that he wasn't original. Whatever. He blended several ideas into one document for the first time, and the important part, he meant them.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - that all men are created equal."

Surely that has been a phrase that changed the world. Most of the men who signed the Declaration didn't even realize the idealism that this phrase represents. They thought "men" meant "men just like them", i.e. white, land-owning, protestant men. They didn't need to be explicit, because that's how universal they thought the concept applied. But Jefferson knew, as did a few others (notably Franklin and Adams).

That phrase represents an ideal that America has been hard-pressed to realize, but that defines us and shapes us as a people, and as a nation. It is an ideal that has caused those around the world oppressed and shackled to dream of a land called America. It represents the very best of what we can be.

The story of the Constitution is not as well known, but also incredibly powerful. Madison and Hamilton, having very different philosophies and visions for America, negotiating the checks and balances of our government. The two were placed on the drafting committee, and came up with the final language of our Constitution. Then they worked hand in hand to get the Constitution accepted by all thirteen states, producing and publishing a vast collection of essays to educate and persuade the American people to transfer the bulk of the sovereign power away from the states and to a central government. They worked in tandem hundreds of miles apart as they argued and debated their state legislatures, Hamilton in New York and Madison in Virginia.

The essays became known as the Federalist Papers, and are required reading for anyone who wants to fully understand our Constitution. Talk to any political scientist, and they will say that the Federalist Papers stand alongside the Declaration and the Constitution as the greatest American contributions to political philosophy.

Now I'm off to enjoy some pursuit of happiness.

 

[sr71plt]

Those 27 amendments don't reflect foresight; they reflect hindsight (as long as we're being sticky).

 

[bronzeage]

The Fourth of July celebrates the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Both make good reading for this weekend.

 

[nerk]

There are others, of course. I thought it appropriate to spend a little time researching what this holiday is all about. All I can do is wonder at the foresight our forefeathers exibited in their planning and be encouraged.

Those 27 amendments don't reflect foresight; they reflect hindsight (as long as we're being sticky).

I can't believe you picked on foresight and left forefeathers alone!

and I think the foresight was in writing the Constitution as a legal document that provides a legal procedure by which it can be be amended. But it might have been something else.

 

[D_K_Moon]

I can't believe you picked on foresight and left forefeathers alone!

I'm just a Canadian, so perhaps you could explain what forefeathers are?

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I just thought this holiday deserves more than the lighting of a firecracker with no regard as to why the firecracker is being lit. This long weekend is more than an extra day off, it signifies something more important. Just wanted to express this, to create some dialogue, and I have done this. Would love there to be more, but...

 

[sr71plt]

I just thought this holiday deserves more than the lighting of a firecracker with no regard as to why the firecracker is being lit. This long weekend is more than an extra day off, it signifies something more important. Just wanted to express this, to create some dialogue, and I have done this. Would love there to be more, but...

Extra day off? Folks get an extra day off? I haven't had an extra day off for anything since I supposedly retired.

 

[sr71plt]

I can't believe you picked on foresight and left forefeathers alone!

Read right through it and didn't see it. I was going with the concept.

And it's true that the framers of the Constitution had the "foresight" to build in that ability to amend, but all of that "wasn't that a golden era?" stuff aside, they only put in the capability because they had to compromise among themselves to get even this far--and then the wham-bang amending while they were trying to get the Constitution ratified was because the States wouldn't ratify this "perfect" Constitution without putting more democracy back into the document/system. The whole reason a constitutional convention was called was that there was so much democracy in the Articles of Confederation system that the country was grinding to a halt and couldn't get much of anything done collectively.

Politics were devisive politics even then. It wasn't the Cecil DeMille movie set hindsight has painted it to be.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Forefeathers

I was trying to be clever. The American Indians are the true inhabitants of this land. And so I "morphed" fore-fathers with four feathers. I don't make mistakes, lol.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Those 27 amendments don't reflect foresight; they reflect hindsight (as long as we're being sticky).

Good point. And I believe you are correct. They went back and made fixes to a document that lacked clarity in some areas. But still not a bad first draft.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Extra day off? Folks get an extra day off? I haven't had an extra day off for anything since I supposedly retired.

So what does the "mysterious" SR do which disqualifies him from enjoying a three-day weekend? The spies have been caught, in case you haven't read the headlines.

 

[CopperSkink]

I for one certainly don't know anything about any days off. Days off for everyone else means more dogs for me to take care of.

I always found it interesting how people drool after the words of slavers and religious oppressors. "Land of opportunity" means nothing more than "the land people can invade, shoot everyone already living there, build on the backs of slaves, and live like kings, telling everyone else how they should live their lives."

We're not better than anyone else; we just boast about ourselves and our many accomplishments. We claim patriotism as our strength, though all it seems to do is divide. It divides us from one-another in that one person can claim abortion is patriotic, denouncing anyone else who has a different point-of-view as being unpatriotic. What's to stop the pro-life people from making the same claim? Not too much.
It also divides us from the rest of the world. We get our asses kicked on the Olympic diving platform and our currency means shit to the world market right now. But who cares? We better than you.
The struggle to believe we're involved with something great. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
The Bill of Rights were a nice ten rules to lay down, but look what we've done with them. Freedom of speech means whatever the person in the big chair at the time happens to think about it. Children are indoctrinated by being forced to stand and "cross their hearts" at a flag they don't understand and recite a poem the person over the intercom doesn't know how to recite properly. People refer to this country as "America" as though the word doesn't refer to two entire continents filled with countries. We claim "manifest destiny" so we don't have to feel guilty about pressing our territory as far as we want. We claim "white man's burden" to justify oppressing others with our system of living and our various religions and faiths.
And that's how we live: Clinging to an ideal written two hundred, twenty-three years or so ago without ever asking ourselves if we're worthy of the legacy, or whether we just shout "unpatriotic!" at those that have a different view of us. To each his own, I suppose. Isn't that the "persuit of happiness" that starts up the Declairation?

 

[sr71plt]

So what does the "mysterious" SR do which disqualifies him from enjoying a three-day weekend? The spies have been caught, in case you haven't read the headlines.

I write and edit--pretty much flat out. I have an indulgent wife who does everything but plan our vacations (and the dishes). It's been a decade since I've even known a minor federal holiday was creeping up on me. I usually find out by not finding any mail in the mailbox that day.

And even when I was working a government job, it was in 24/7 job where I got the holiday pay, not the day off.

 

[figazza]

The Constitution did not come until almost 12 years after the Declaration.

"I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore."

-John Adams

 

[sr71plt]

The Constitution did not come until almost 12 years after the Declaration.

"I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore."

-John Adams

He ultimately celebrated it by dying on July 4th--his last words, ironically, being as "a little off" as much of what he said in life: "Jefferson yet lives." Jefferson had died a couple of hours before him (also on July 4, 1826--on the 50th anniversary of independence), though.

 

[figazza]

He ultimately celebrated it by dying on July 4th--his last words, ironically, being as "a little off" as much of what he said in life: "Jefferson yet lives." Jefferson had died a couple of hours before him (also on July 4, 1826--on the 50th anniversary of independence), though.

I honestly did not know they died the same day.

 

[sr71plt]

It's Calvin Coolidge's birthday too. That's fascinating news, I'm sure. (Well, July 4th, not the preceise July 4th Adams and Jefferson passed on.)

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I write and edit--pretty much flat out. I have an indulgent wife who does everything but plan our vacations (and the dishes). It's been a decade since I've even known a minor federal holiday was creeping up on me. I usually find out by not finding any mail in the mailbox that day.

And even when I was working a government job, it was in 24/7 job where I got the holiday pay, not the day off.

I'll have to read one of yours. You mentioned a ways back that you have posted over 300. I enjoy history. If I did, would you recommend one?

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I for one certainly don't know anything about any days off. Days off for everyone else means more dogs for me to take care of.

I always found it interesting how people drool after the words of slavers and religious oppressors. "Land of opportunity" means nothing more than "the land people can invade, shoot everyone already living there, build on the backs of slaves, and live like kings, telling everyone else how they should live their lives."

We're not better than anyone else; we just boast about ourselves and our many accomplishments. We claim patriotism as our strength, though all it seems to do is divide. It divides us from one-another in that one person can claim abortion is patriotic, denouncing anyone else who has a different point-of-view as being unpatriotic. What's to stop the pro-life people from making the same claim? Not too much.
It also divides us from the rest of the world. We get our asses kicked on the Olympic diving platform and our currency means shit to the world market right now. But who cares? We better than you.
The struggle to believe we're involved with something great. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
The Bill of Rights were a nice ten rules to lay down, but look what we've done with them. Freedom of speech means whatever the person in the big chair at the time happens to think about it. Children are indoctrinated by being forced to stand and "cross their hearts" at a flag they don't understand and recite a poem the person over the intercom doesn't know how to recite properly. People refer to this country as "America" as though the word doesn't refer to two entire continents filled with countries. We claim "manifest destiny" so we don't have to feel guilty about pressing our territory as far as we want. We claim "white man's burden" to justify oppressing others with our system of living and our various religions and faiths.
And that's how we live: Clinging to an ideal written two hundred, twenty-three years or so ago without ever asking ourselves if we're worthy of the legacy, or whether we just shout "unpatriotic!" at those that have a different view of us. To each his own, I suppose. Isn't that the "persuit of happiness" that starts up the Declairation?

The "Pledge of Allegiance" has not been allowed for many years. And I'm truly sorry you have been "scarred" by this tradition which has since been "phased out". You are fortunate to live in a democracy where you are free to express your opinion, as in other countries you could be imprisoned, or worse, for expressing ideas inconsistent with the "norm".

I think you're a progressive or a liberal, trying to change what has been a successful experiment in capitalism into something resembling socialism. Let me take a wild guess -- you support the Kenya-born Obama?

 

[sr71plt]

I'll have to read one of yours. You mentioned a ways back that you have posted over 300. I enjoy history. If I did, would you recommend one?

417. American history (as you say you don't read GM) would probably be Wolf Creek (which is published as Raven's Possession). But it's a full novel. If you can stomach menage and want to see an example of the foreign locale/spy stuff, try "The Golden Triangle" (which I'm now expanding for publication).

I don't put much of the straight stuff here, though, because I can sell it in the mainstream--under other names.

If you'd like to see the full range of preferences handled under one title and a foreign time/locale, try the "Tuscan Sunset" series here. Most of that got green Es.

"Snaked" is a straight horror one. The are 50 some straight ones in the file; just pick one out at random.

 

[sxyoldguy]

I for one certainly don't know anything about any days off. Days off for everyone else means more dogs for me to take care of.

I always found it interesting how people drool after the words of slavers and religious oppressors. "Land of opportunity" means nothing more than "the land people can invade, shoot everyone already living there, build on the backs of slaves, and live like kings, telling everyone else how they should live their lives."

We're not better than anyone else; we just boast about ourselves and our many accomplishments. We claim patriotism as our strength, though all it seems to do is divide. It divides us from one-another in that one person can claim abortion is patriotic, denouncing anyone else who has a different point-of-view as being unpatriotic. What's to stop the pro-life people from making the same claim? Not too much.
It also divides us from the rest of the world. We get our asses kicked on the Olympic diving platform and our currency means shit to the world market right now. But who cares? We better than you.
The struggle to believe we're involved with something great. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
The Bill of Rights were a nice ten rules to lay down, but look what we've done with them. Freedom of speech means whatever the person in the big chair at the time happens to think about it. Children are indoctrinated by being forced to stand and "cross their hearts" at a flag they don't understand and recite a poem the person over the intercom doesn't know how to recite properly. People refer to this country as "America" as though the word doesn't refer to two entire continents filled with countries. We claim "manifest destiny" so we don't have to feel guilty about pressing our territory as far as we want. We claim "white man's burden" to justify oppressing others with our system of living and our various religions and faiths.
And that's how we live: Clinging to an ideal written two hundred, twenty-three years or so ago without ever asking ourselves if we're worthy of the legacy, or whether we just shout "unpatriotic!" at those that have a different view of us. To each his own, I suppose. Isn't that the "persuit of happiness" that starts up the Declairation?

Don't know what drives your obvious bitterness but as one among the brotherhood who has hung his ass out more than once so you can have the right to express those feelings I'm offended. It's not a perfect sytem by any means but it is without question the best one available. If you hate it so much then why stay?

It's about freedom. Freedom think, act and succeed as one sees fit.

Socialism is a failed experiment, Communism was a failed experiment, but many forms of democracy flourish. Perhaps you could find one to your liking. Or better yet you could work to make this one better, because that's part of it all. Continuing to make it better for everyone.

You have a nice day tomorrow celebrating the freedom to do so. If for some reason you can't, just remember that you have the freedom to change your circumstance.

 

[sr71plt]

Actually more forms of socialism flourish than democracy, and when you pair them, democratic socialism, you have many more examples.

I get the part about "Americans," although it's not just those in the United States who don't seem to realize that Canadians and Peruvians are Americans too.

 

[sxyoldguy]

Actually more forms of socialism flourish than democracy, and when you pair them, democratic socialism, you have many more examples.

I was originally refering to the classical socialism of my youth. But point taken.

Interestingly I think that as a nation we are closer to becoming a socialistic democracy than many of us think.

We have regulated markets, private ownership of most businesses, but public/govermental ownership of many utilities etc. Businesses are regulated by the gov't, and we have an extensive welfare system on both the national and local level.

The "state" is funded by taxes on the population, which takes from those most able to pay and is distributed in various ways to those in need.

Pure capitalism that so many radical socialists love to hate doesn't hasn't existed in this country for a long time.

But, as I said point taken.

 

[statsultan]

Actually more forms of socialism flourish than democracy, and when you pair them, democratic socialism, you have many more examples.

I was originally refering to the classical socialism of my youth. But point taken.

Interestingly I think that as a nation we are closer to becoming a socialistic democracy than many of us think.

We have regulated markets, private ownership of most businesses, but public/govermental ownership of many utilities etc. Businesses are regulated by the gov't, and we have an extensive welfare system on both the national and local level.

The "state" is funded by taxes on the population, which takes from those most able to pay and is distributed in various ways to those in need.

Pure capitalism that so many radical socialists love to hate doesn't hasn't existed in this country for a long time.

But, as I said point taken.

A couple things: Firstly, socialism is an economic model, not a political model. So a 'social democracy' is not a contradiction at all (not that you were saying it was, just that its a common misconception).

The U.S. Constitution is silent on economics. The Supreme Court decided on its own in the late 19th century that almost any interference of the government in the marketplace was unconstitutional, thanks to a strict interpretation of the Commerce Clause, but that mindset was broken for good during the Great Depression.

Secondly, we are a mixed economy. There's no such thing as pure capitalism. It cannot exist. Just as there cannot be a pure communist or command economy, for a host of reasons. So anyone complaining about US capitalism is really saying that we should be a little further to the left on the economic spectrum, and those complaining about socialism are saying we should be a little more to the right on the economic spectrum. That being said, we were a heck of a lot further towards socialism 50-60 years ago than we are today. Price controls, wage controls, unionization in almost every industry, enormous government spending compared to GDP. So it's very frustrating to be called a "bleeping communist" for saying that we should be just a little but further to the left, though nowhere close to where we were recently.