The Bible

[Zeb_Carter]

We all know the Bible, a book about faith, but what if it had never been written in the time that it was?

What if it had been written today?

How do you think it would be received?

How would it be characterized in todays society?

A given to the questions above: we are all faithless, soulless humans living the good life.

Second set of questions:

If it hadn't been written when it was, what would society look like today?

How different from what it is would our world be?

 

[3113]

We all know the Bible, a book about faith, but what if it had never been written in the time that it was?

What if it had been written today?

How do you think it would be received?

That depends:
(1) Would it contain all the same stories happening in that past time, or would they be in the here and now? i.e. do Adam and Eve catch a bus out of Eden? Does Abraham's really old wife, Sarah, get preggers with Isaac thanks to in vitro fertilization? Does Abe take a glock to his son Issac--and is then hauled away by child services to a psychiatric unit where he's given meds for that voice he's hearing telling him to kill his son? Des Isaac end up in foster care?

(2) Remember, the Bible is a tribal people's verbal history of what they think actually happened, about the tall tales passed down to them from father to son about their great leaders and all the celebrity gossip surrounding those leaders. So if the Bible was written now, who would be writing it and about whom?

(3)Remember that in Biblical times there really was (a) no such things as a historian who made sure all these facts were true and (b) a unquestionable belief in magic. It was viewed as real and possible and no one was going to question whether a stick really turned into a snake or, hey, when did those twelve plagues happen, exactly, and would some natural phenomenon explain them? Which is to say, you can still get people to believe magic over science, and myth over historical fact, but you're starting off with a baseline readership where some or even a lot of the readers may question the veracity of the story. Not true of the Bible back in Biblical times.

Now we have both historians and a great deal of science to explain how things happen--things that couldn't be explained back then except for "magic."

(4) Remember that those writing the bible stories changed, edited, re-wrote, put in stories, took out stories. WHICH Bible of modern times are readers reading?

(5) Part of the on-going influence of the Bible is thanks to the fact that it is so engrained through out our culture that even if a child is raised by atheists he/she will hear Bible stories as a kid. Like Noah's ark. Adam & Eve. The birth of Jesus. If the Bible were put out now, there's no way it'd have the same influence as it couldn't instantly be that pervasive (even Harry Potter, the one of the biggest global best sellers ever wasn't pervasive enough that we ended up having a day where, every year, we see a dozen tv shows relating Harry's harrowing moment as a baby defeating Voldermort. Yet every year starting in November, we hear, over and over again, stories of baby Jesus being born and nativity scenes.

This suggests that you'd have a hard time making the Bible as culturally pervasive now even if it was a run-away best seller. 2000 years aggressively spreading it around is hard to match in modern culture.

If you're asking, however, if the book could still start a religion--of course. Look at the Mormons. Look at L. Ron Hubbart. There are those who treat Star Wars as a religion venerating the Force, and those who treat Star Trek as a religion venerating the Federation. It's easy enough to start a religion. The bible put out now certainly could...whether it would is anyone's guess.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

That depends:
(1) Would it contain all the same stories happening in that past time, or would they be in the here and now? i.e. do Adam and Eve catch a bus out of Eden? Does Abraham's really old wife, Sarah, get preggers with Isaac thanks to in vitro fertilization? Does Abe take a glock to his son Issac--and is then hauled away by child services to a psychiatric unit where he's given meds for that voice he's hearing telling him to kill his son? Des Isaac end up in foster care?

(2) Remember, the Bible is a tribal people's verbal history of what they think actually happened, about the tall tales passed down to them from father to son about their great leaders and all the celebrity gossip surrounding those leaders. So if the Bible was written now, who would be writing it and about whom?

(3) Part of the on-going influence of the Bible is thanks to the fact that it is so engrained through out our culture that even if a child is raised by atheists he/she will hear Bible stories as a kid. Like Noah's ark. Adam & Eve. The birth of Jesus. If the Bible were put out now, there's no way it'd have the same influence as it couldn't instantly be that pervasive (even Harry Potter, the one of the biggest global best sellers ever wasn't pervasive enough that we ended up having a day where, every year, we see a dozen tv shows relating Harry's harrowing moment as a baby defeating Voldermort.

Yet every year starting in November, we hear, over and over again, stories of baby Jesus being born and nativity scenes.

If you're asking, however, if the book could still start a religion--of course. Look at the Mormons. Look at L. Ron Hubbart. There are those who treat Star Wars as a religion venerating the Force, and those who treat Star Trek as a religion venerating the Federation. It's easy enough to start a religion. The bible put out now certainly could...whether it would is anyone's guess.

It would be a period piece, just as it is today.

Except for the Mormons, the other are laughed at by most.

 

[3113]

Except for the Mormons, the other are laughed at by most.

Mormons were laughed at, too, when they started. And so, for that matter, were Christians and Muslims when they started. Just because they're laughed at doesn't mean they don't have staying power or the ability to become "real" religions.

 

[3113]

It would be a period piece, just as it is today.

Okay. Which version of the Bible is it? Black Sea Scrolls? Modern Jewish? Remember, especially when it comes to the Christian Church, the Bible was edited, altered, went through at least three languages (Aramaic, Ancient Greek, Latin) before being translated into modern languages used today--and when it was translated the meaning of words changed--so which translation are we using?

Remember that the Christian Church also cut out and put in stories. They argued bitterly over what ought to be included or not. Especially with the New Testament there were a LOT of versions of the Christ story. There was a big fight over which ought to be included, which is why there is a Gnostic bible with some quite startling differences in the stories(I rather like the story where Christ COMMANDS Judas to betray him and, thus, allow him to die and transform. I also like the one where Jesus designates Mary M. as his #1 disciple rather than Peter).

So. Which story are people going to get? Who wrote it? What people's "history" does it tell as neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims exist without the Bible? If it's about a fictional people living 5000 years ago and their history up through to the Roman Empire, it'd be classified as fiction--as, with no Bible, none of these people actually existed and, here in the present, we'd know that.

Thus, it would likely have a foreword that went something like: "This is a tale about a tribe of people who lived 5000 years ago called 'The Hebrews.' They lived and thrived in the middle east, then vanished not long after the reign of Tiberius Caesar...."

 

[Lady_June]

The Bible is the greatest genetic code ever. Or the greatest fairy tales book, it depends on who's reading that. FYI, we didnt evolve from monkeys, nor an old man with a long white beard made us of clay. We are genetically engineered by aliens, no matter how it sounds to u. Reality is stranger than fiction and obviously not everybody can handle the truth. BTW, when was the truth last time exposed to us, sheeple? Replace the words "god" and "angels" from the Bible with "alien/s" and everything will change then. Wake up and do ur research, its all u have to do. Or swallow the crap the corporate media is feeding u daily.

 

[3113]

Except for the Mormons, the other are laughed at by most.

Oh, and you missed my point about people viewing Star Wars or Star Trek as a religion--which is that even fiction that people know is fiction can become, to some, a religion. Whether you or anyone else take such people, who have made a religion out of such fictions, seriously is immaterial. The point is that people can make a religion out of any story, even if they know it's not true.

Such is the power of story.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

We all know the Bible, a book about faith, but what if it had never been written in the time that it was?

What if it had been written today?

How do you think it would be received?

How would it be characterized in todays society?

A given to the questions above: we are all faithless, soulless humans living the good life.

Second set of questions:

If it hadn't been written when it was, what would society look like today?

How different from what it is would our world be?

Are you not, at the same time, asking what impacts would there have been in the absence of the Bible? For if it did not exist, then there would be impacts in its absence.

Perhaps the Crusades would never have happened. And why was there a Crusades? To occupy an army of men that had no use. And so Europe may have been sent into chaos as idle and bored soldiers ravaged the land.

Interesting thought, the implications are numerous.

Makes my head hurt!

 

[Darkniciad]

Probably next to nothing. From the moment the first human discovered that he could get laid and avoid hunting/gathering by himself by claiming to speak for god, organized religion was inevitable.

Likewise, religions have been steadily moving toward monotheism over the centuries. It's far easier to monopolize the sheep when you only have one shephard.

All we would have were different stories about the invisible man in the sky and different holidays. Maybe not even the latter. The calculated decision by the Catholic Church to co-opt every pagan holiday with one of their own might have very well occurred to any other religion that dominated instead.

The modern Bible is a creation of Constantine anyway. It tosses out umpteen stories that he didn't like to create the narrative he wanted to forge a new Roman Empire, probably unwittingly building on the handiwork of some ancient Jewish King who did the same thing in the far-flung past with the Old Testament, which was probably cobbled together from some other religion about a king of gods or nacent monotheistic tradition like Aten... All the way back to the caveman who sucked at hunting and couldn't get the pussy, but had a hell of an imagination and a silver tongue.

 

[3113]

Perhaps the Crusades would never have happened. And why was there a Crusades? To occupy an army of men that had no use.

Well, yes and no. The original Crusades were really trying to keep hold of certain places and power. The question is how much value diid these places have and would they have been of interest without a connection to the Bible--and if they were, could people all over Europe be motivated to protect them for their own value and not their "Biblical" value?

What value did the Middle East have before the discovery of oil? Well, it was one of the areas crossed and re-crossed by spice traders. It was important to those heading into Africa after gold and jewels and exotic animals. By those heading to India for silks and other exotics. It was still a valuable area for ships to land and trade--and still most especially valuable to any living in Italy.

So controlling it would still be appealing to to whatever sort of civilization had come up in place of the Holy Roman Empire. What would likely be different is that they wouldn't have any spiritual "lure" to get fighters as far away as England going to war to help them control that area. The religious angle gave the Crusades a certain prestige and appeal that it wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

[Verdad]

Second set of questions:

If it hadn't been written when it was, what would society look like today?

How different from what it is would our world be?

I thought this question (especially) weird because it’s posed as though, were we in a sci-fi novel, one could travel back in time and if one so wished create a world without the Bible by altering a single junction.

But as 3113 began explaining, the Bible is a collection of texts that grew out of oral tradition; a collection that was written and compiled over lengthy periods of time, by numerous authors, who built on each other’s accounts, combining and altering and recombining them. The writing of it was not a single event, a momentary historical fluke that might as easily not have happened, as your question seems to imply. It was a long process, growing out of life and history of the people who created it.

Moreover, it’s a process reflective of universal tendencies of human mind, like telling of stories in order to make sense of things, or pushing toward the boundaries of understanding. Religious narratives have been with humans since the dawn times and monotheism, in particular, could have been (and was) invented by people other than ancient Hebrews. Even if in your thought experiment you severed all the roots of the Bible as we know it, you’d be rash to expect a world without monotheism, not to even say, one devoid of religion or prominent religious texts.

There’s no shortage of junctions at which the history of major religions could have gone differently, but maybe the answer to your question should be this: If the Bible we know didn’t come down to us, some other would have.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh? As I remember it, the Bible was written on a Thursday.

 

[3113]

Oh? As I remember it, the Bible was written on a Thursday.

Thursday night, to be specific. The writers met in a cafe and banged it out over coffee and donuts, though I believe Yahweh himself went for a bagel and cream cheese.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Thursday night, to be specific. The writers met in a cafe and banged it out over coffee and donuts, though I believe Yahweh himself went for a bagel and cream cheese.

How can you be so glib about a gift that is our Bible?

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Let's talk about God. About the gifts He gives us.

 

[bronzeage]

We all know the Bible, a book about faith, but what if it had never been written in the time that it was?

What if it had been written today?

How do you think it would be received?

How would it be characterized in todays society?

A given to the questions above: we are all faithless, soulless humans living the good life.

Second set of questions:

If it hadn't been written when it was, what would society look like today?

How different from what it is would our world be?

This question was raised in Salman Rushdie's book, The Satanic Verses. The narrator is a contemporary of Mohammed, who is a witness to the writing of the Koran. Mohammed spent his life as a merchant who operated a caravan business. Our story teller wonders why God spends so much time issuing edicts which concern business and commerce.

By contrast, the New Testament Gospels have no references to carpentry.

 

[Zodia195]

I agree with what most people say here, especially 3113. I do think that without the Bible this world would be different. How? I have no idea. Not all religions have sacred texts though so maybe like many oral religious traditions things might not have changed. Many indiginous tribes' religions are based on oral traditions and they pretty much stayed the same, but that's mostly because their way of life hasn't changed.

 

[3113]

How can you be so glib about a gift that is our Bible?

What an absurd question. Re-read your New Testament. Jesus was wonderfully glib. And really, how can one not be glib about a "gift" that includes such wonderful highlights as god ordering the wholesale slaughter of men, women, babies, and animals--and cursing kings who decide not to kill the animals? (Samuel 1:15) Or a King who says that a hero can marry his daughter if he brings back a certain number of foreskins? (Samuel 18:27). Match that Hercules!

If you don't know these hilarious stories, you haven't read the best parts of the Bible. Read 'em and you'll find it incredibly easy to be glib.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Okay. Which version of the Bible is it? Black Sea Scrolls? Modern Jewish? Remember, especially when it comes to the Christian Church, the Bible was edited, altered, went through at least three languages (Aramaic, Ancient Greek, Latin) before being translated into modern languages used today--and when it was translated the meaning of words changed--so which translation are we using?

Remember that the Christian Church also cut out and put in stories. They argued bitterly over what ought to be included or not. Especially with the New Testament there were a LOT of versions of the Christ story. There was a big fight over which ought to be included, which is why there is a Gnostic bible with some quite startling differences in the stories(I rather like the story where Christ COMMANDS Judas to betray him and, thus, allow him to die and transform. I also like the one where Jesus designates Mary M. as his #1 disciple rather than Peter).

So. Which story are people going to get? Who wrote it? What people's "history" does it tell as neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims exist without the Bible? If it's about a fictional people living 5000 years ago and their history up through to the Roman Empire, it'd be classified as fiction--as, with no Bible, none of these people actually existed and, here in the present, we'd know that.

Thus, it would likely have a foreword that went something like: "This is a tale about a tribe of people who lived 5000 years ago called 'The Hebrews.' They lived and thrived in the middle east, then vanished not long after the reign of Tiberius Caesar...."

Lets just go with the King James version, that is the most common in the western world and lets combine the old and the new testaments.

Oh, and you missed my point about people viewing Star Wars or Star Trek as a religion--which is that even fiction that people know is fiction can become, to some, a religion. Whether you or anyone else take such people, who have made a religion out of such fictions, seriously is immaterial. The point is that people can make a religion out of any story, even if they know it's not true.

Such is the power of story.

No, I didn't. I didn't ask a question as to religion. I laugh at all of the equally. Personally, I think the bible is a collection of short stories, some erotic, some science fiction (for it's time at least), some mystery novel, some romance, but all just what they are stories, fiction at the least, tall tales at it worst.

 

[Zodia195]

Well, while I don't believe everything in the Bible is true, I do believe that people don't intentionally lie either, even if their perception of truth is false. So we really don't know if the Bible is full of fictional stories. I'd like to believe that some of things that did happen or will happen (in the book of Revelations for ex.) are true.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Well, while I don't believe everything in the Bible is true, I do believe that people don't intentionally lie either, even if their perception of truth is false. So we really don't know if the Bible is full of fictional stories. I'd like to believe that some of things that did happen or will happen (in the book of Revelations for ex.) are true.

I bet you believe in all that bullshit Nostradamus spouted too?

Any collection of stories written by a group of different authors over a long period of time and edited by a group of different people with a completely different agenda centuries later is bound to be full of mis-truths and flat out lies. Or is a complete work of fiction to justify the editors agenda.

 

[Zodia195]

To each their own I guess. And to answer your question about Nostradomus, I can't really say if I believe in what he said simply because I haven't actually scene what he's written in person. What I do believe is that while I think it's possible to see the future, predicting it is a whole other story because the future is never set in stone. Things can happen but how they happen may differ. It may not even happen at all because of something else. And everyone has their own opinion on what is true and what isn't.

 

[frostyghost09]

now this is a good thread.. Loving reading all the different opinions

 

[sr71plt]

Lets just go with the King James version, that is the most common in the western world and lets combine the old and the new testaments.

Absolutely. If the King James version was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us.

 

[3113]

Lets just go with the King James version, that is the most common in the western world and lets combine the old and the new testaments.

Okay. So, presuming that this is not going in the "fiction" section, but rather the religion section, what we have here is one of those books that comes out purporting to tell some secret truth about some lost people. Rather like the Mormon book which talks about how the lost tribes of Israel came to America and settled here. First problem is it's length. Many people believe in the Bible but very few read it cover-to-cover. Most people read passages, know the stories from Bible class when they were kids, or from movies, or being told the story in church. This is very different from buying a book off a shelf which you *do* expect to read cover-to-cover. I think we can safely assume that if the Bible were brought out now, it would be as a series of books rather than as one big book.

The archaic language of the King James would be the next problem. There are difficult-to-read books that have been popular, but they're not real common. Another problem is getting the book viewed as "truth" rather than "myth." Take the way people see stories of Hercules vs. Samson. Why is one strong man's story "myth" and the other strong man's story "truth?" Because one is from the Bible and the other is from a religion of a lost people. Likewise here, the Bible stories might be viewed as "myths." Fun, but not to be taken seriously, not like the stories of whatever religion holds sway in a world that developed without a Bible. (Mithraism maybe? That religion was neck and neck with Christianity for dominance during the late Roman Empire).

Another problem: a lot of the Bible is pretty boring. Readers might wonder, for example, why there are lengthy passages that just detail who was born to whom, or piddling rules about what seafood can and can't be eaten.

Last problem: The bible's pervasiveness and popularity is helped by having churches, missionaries, and religious leaders behind it. Once a week people meet to hear someone talk about these stories and what they mean. Most modern works that become religious phenomena, with no help from an existing religion, like the Celestine Prophecies, tend to be short, sweet, easily consumed and readily put into practice. The Bible doesn't provide that. What it would have going for it is that "secret truth" vibe. People do go for books on the "lost religions" of "lost people." But I'm not so sure it would be popular--a global phenomena--unless well marketed, unless it had "new Christians" behind it trying to get people to read it and believe it.