The Banes of Theraputic Psychology and those that hurt its progress.

[Joe Wordsworth]

I was out eating lunch with friends today and one of them went on and on about how X was happening to him and Y wasn't his fault and all that. Specifically, that one of them wasn't where he wanted to be in life, not as successful, not as happy, he wasn't as in shape as he wanted, he feel moody and depended on cigarettes.

And someone else pipes up with "life's like a butterfly, its just going to go and all you do is watch and enjoy".

Oh.

Dear God.

Things like that. Little offhand comments like that. Pet peeves of mine. Little irrational and colorful comments that are the death bell for hope that people can overcome their worries and problems, their disatisfaction and lack of control.

Cigarettes are a choice. Thats the first step to getting rid of them. They /are/ a choice. You /can/ choose not to. Job decisions, career decisions, school work, all of those were choices. To either do them with the utmost drive or not. Understanding that you, yourself, control your ability to perform in those environments... essential to altering behavior to coincide with better desires. Even being in shape... a choice.

Empowering people with the understanding that they can be in control and they can choose what they want, all it takes is dedicated, willpower, and desire. Support from friends and family are great, but its all /you/.

And some bitch sets this guy back months and years of realizing his goals because he's half-convinced that none of it was his fault.

Goddamit.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I
Empowering people with the understanding that they can be in control and they can choose what they want, all it takes is dedicated, willpower, and desire. Support from friends and family are great, but its all /you/.

This is a very true statement which says it all.

It also takes being honest with yourself and realizing your inner strength.

Butterfly my ass.

 

[impressive]

Re: Re: The Banes of Theraputic Psychology and those that hurt its progress.

Butterfly my ass.

Oh, the visual

 

[Guest]

... all it takes is dedicated, willpower, and desire.

Unless one is clinically depressed and without a therapist and/or medication.

pro-smoker (i.e., addicted),

Perdita

 

[English Lady]

Tis funny.

My day has been all about decisions and choices and coming to the realisation that I am in fact an adult and I can choose to do what ever the bugger I feel like.


it's incredibly liberating but at the same time almost mind numbingly scary.

I own my own thoughts and actions (to use one of those "in" terms) and knowing I can take knowledge and use it in whatever way I want to is fantastic. I don't have to do anything because "so and so" says so.

However it also means I have to take responsibility for what i decide to do or not do and others may copy my actions (like my little girl for example)and I'm responsible. That makes me think.

Only I can make my own decisions.

Sounds obvious when I say it, but i think I only really realised it today after 25 years on this planet.

 

[Guest]

... Sounds obvious when I say it, but i think I only really realised it today after 25 years on this planet.

Good on you, El. It took me a lot longer than that. P.

 

[English Lady]

Thanks Perdita...now I just have to believe it and act on it.

I think another 25 years may be needed....

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Good on you, El. It took me a lot longer than that. P.

Ditto.

 

[minsue]

Smoking is a choice. A physical addiction, but still a choice.

Mental illness is not a choice.

- Mindy, mentally ill smoker

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
Smoking is a choice. A physical addiction, but still a choice.

Mental illness is not a choice.

- Mindy, mentally ill smoker

Oh, I surely would never advocate the position that people are not afflicted with things--independant of their desire for it. Only that the power of choice is a valuable and effective first step toward the treatment of any disorder, clinical or sub-clinical.

Often times, in the Psych Department, we find that the biggest problem with regards to helping and treating those with anxiety, disorder, depression, guilt, even simple unhappiness is that they are convinced by those around them that it isn't a thing they have any control over... those people don't come in for help. They don't take the first step and choose better, even if that choice is asking for direction.

Pseudo-psychology has been a huge conflict for me and others who have been doing Clinical Psych work... its an ignorance, even if well intentioned, that can lead to people giving up on genuine change or assistance from those who can truly help.

I've been around those, and worked with those who have patients with clinical depression symptoms and genuinely disruptive disorders in their lives from rape to anxiety to imbalance... acceptance of personal ability and responsibility, and committment to change is so essential.

*sigh*

Sorry, this was just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[minsue]

Sorry, this was just a pet peeve of mine.

No need for sorries, Joe. I completely agree.

There are always choices. Personally, I made the choice years ago to quit seeking treatment and simply gut it out on my own. Probably not the wisest choice and it almost surely makes life more difficult for my loved ones, but it was the choice I made and I have no illusions about that fact that my mental health is most certainly effected by that choice.

Sorry for looking before I leapt before. I jumped to the conclusion from your first post that you were a member of the "it's all in your head" camp. (you'd think I'd lose weight with all the jumping I've been doing lately. )

 

[English Lady]

I had two friends back in 6th form college. Both we're clinically depressed. Friend number one knew it was her decsion to get better and she was constantly fighting with her depression. Friend number 2 never made that conclusion and continually spiralled deeper into her depression.

Last i heard friend one is still battling, but she has done alot and moved on alot from where she was 8 yyears ago....the other friend however is still acting and behaving as she was back in college...and from what I've heard has worsened in her condition.


My first friend knew it was her battle to fight, my second friend believes otherwise. you can see the difference can't you.


I too can understand Joes point of view -on many levels.

 

[Pure]

Joe said,

Oh, I surely would never advocate the position that people are not afflicted with things--independant of their desire for it. Only that the power of choice is a valuable and effective first step toward the treatment of any disorder, clinical or sub-clinical.

Often times, in the Psych Department, we find that the biggest problem with regards to helping and treating those with anxiety, disorder, depression, guilt, even simple unhappiness is that they are convinced by those around them that it isn't a thing they have any control over... those people don't come in for help. They don't take the first step and choose better, even if that choice is asking for direction.....

I've been around those, and worked with those who have patients with clinical depression symptoms and genuinely disruptive disorders in their lives from rape to anxiety to imbalance... acceptance of personal ability and responsibility, and committment to change is so essential.


Without casting doubt on the need for some people to take more responsibility for the direction of their lives, and for the treatment of illness, there are a few problems with this approach.

It's a sort of boy scout 'can do' -ism applied to all the woes of life, as Joe says, from anxiety to rape, from excessive shyness to beatings by prison camp guards who've bayonetted your child.

The clinical psychologists (and psychiatrists) 'we can help you if you cooperate and really want to change' is often both arrogant and false, something just beginning to be acknowledged in DSM IV-- that there are life and religious problems that at not really in the province of the psychiatrist.

Without going into detail, one starting point is "What is a disorder?" Joe doesn't say. He lists 'rape' as a disorder, but presumably he means 'reaction/response to rape'. And which of those unpleasant reactive episodes are 'disorders'? Locking all the doors and windows?

Which 'disorders' can be treated? Joe doesn't say, and the clinical psychologists often imply they can 'help' with anything.

Some here have mentioned obvious examples where 'help' has rather mixed results, e.g., smoking and drinking, not to say hard drug use. Other examples are sexual proclivities that are antisocial, such as pedophilia. Also, a 'disorder' afflicting many criminals, its said, is 'antisocial personality' (psychopathy).

It's western arrogance that all nature can be brought under control, and the individuals can endlessly improve their lives through 'hard work', and always obtain more happiness through 'work on themselves' (therapy).

Without denying a place for effort to achieve, to fix the fixable problem, to get medical treatments where available and useful, etc. it's worth mentioning that the basic philosophy of 'help' and 'self help,' 'psychological disorder,' and 'cure'(for it) is deeply flawed, if in no other respect than its grandiose, all-embracing scope for 'treatment.'

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

We all have the freesom to take the concequences of our actions.



That being said, it doesn't all boil down to control. In truth, you can't control life, pin it down, force it where you want to go. Sure, you can try, you can put forth your best effort, but things don't always turn out according to plans. Freak storms, sudden illnesses, surprising grades, failed wooings, random downsizings.

In the end, if you try to control all that, you either become one of those frightening and sociopathic megalomaniacs or you fail miserably. The best is not to try to control, but to try to try. To have the effort to put forth effort, strive for dreams, no matter how futile or painful it is.



Today I was fired from my part-time job, did I plan on it? Hardly. Did I not put forth the best effort I could? Hardly. They literally had a raffle to see who would stay, I lost. What does that mean for the all-controller? If I had been planning exclusively, left no wiggle room, hoped to have it all down, I'd have cried. Instead I grinned and bore it and tommorrow I'll get another one to pay the apartment bills.

There is a lot to be said for a mixture between ambition and zen. Make no mistake, hardship will come, plans will crumble, and ambitions will be stalled. This is called life. In order to avoid going insane or popping a clog at 30, it's neccesary to sometimes think that life is a butterfly, because it is.

In truth, things are not all choices, as pet peeved as you are about that. You've had a good run, Joe, and a run built on a lot of things going your way, but will you not admit that often you had to struggle, that shit happened that was completely outside of your control?

Can the man turn around his life if he puts his mind to it? Possibly. Perhaps it's already too late, the doors are already shut. But that's the case for all, you never know until you try the knob. Did this <you misogynist> "bitch" ruin him by offering him condolances. Will he know put forth no effort because nothing is his fault? Nonsense. Perhaps the moment will give him a way to clear his mind for a moment, let himself refocus. In truth, it's a hard game understanding the adivice a person needs versus what you want to give them.




On another note, I saw a dead bird today, lying in the grass. You are faced with mortality when you see that, you start to remember that at the end, ambition and sloth find the same hole. Does that mean I'll stop being ambitious towards my writing and my science? Hell no, I built them off sweat, saw other, possibly more important dreams die because of them, suffer myself certain punishments because of them. Why? Because that's what I am. But I'd be a fool not to suspect that irony waits in the wings to see it all crashing down, to deny me again and again the starts I crave.

Ambition is a key, a good key, in my opinion, but it is not the only thing a man needs. There is much more and sometimes you do need to forget control to reach what you're really after.

-The Chaotician, making yet again no sense and probably asking for a bop to the nose.

 

[English Lady]

Welllllll

I think you've both twisted this in all kinds of ways


Pure...I think we're talking about making our own decisions....yes theraputic staff are often unhelpful. My husband has overcome his depression...or at least keeps it under wraps because of his own decisions and mindset...not helped by any qualified person. It was his choice to live in fear of the past or not....it wasn't easy..it took , time, patience and a lot of love and understanding but his first step was making the choice...empowering himself to make the decision.


LC....of course shit happens. thats life....but deciding how you're going to tackle what life throws at you is still important...you can't do anything about what life deals you but you can do something about how you react...how you CHOOSE to react is the point.

so there are things out of your control..of course there is but you can control your reaction to that. you can decide.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Pure
The clinical psychologists (and psychiatrists) 'we can help you if you cooperate' is often both arrogant and false, something just beginning to be acknowledged in DSM IV-- that there are life and religious problems that at not really in the province of the psychiatrist.

I entirely agree. I don't know of any clinical psychologist who would say "we can help you if you cooperate". No grad student or professor I know has that kind of arrogance. Sooner, I think, they would say two things "We cannot help if you don't participate" and "We can only show you ways to help yourself, should you decide to". Life problems, I would say, are at the heart of theraputic psychology. Religious problems are a bit outside the bounds of the science, but a person's reactions to those problems can be helped by it.

Without going into detail, one starting point is "What is a disorder?" Joe doesn't say. He lists 'rape' as a disorder, but presumably he means 'reaction/response to rape'. And which of those unpleasant reactive episodes are 'disorders'? Locking all the doors and windows?

I would say that a disorder, informally, is a condition that has a negative impact on one's life such that they are unable to function contently or responsibly. "Rape" is twofold... those that have done it or have found themselves wanting to, and those who have suffered it. Either may have a disorder.

Which 'disorders' can be treated? Joe doesn't say, and the clinical psychologists often imply they can 'help' with anything.

Strictly speaking, many can be treated... that's sort of a long, long, long list of cases. No clinical psycholigists I am aware of ever imply that they can help with anything.

Also, a 'disorder' afflicting many criminals, its said, is 'antisocial personality' (psychopathy).

ASD has been the subject of most of my work in Clinical Psych. It doesn't affect quite as many criminals as people think. Its a fairly difficult thing to diagnose, most often being categorized (by case) with narcissism and other, easier to identify, disorders. The biggest problem with ASD's is that they are found amongst the sorts of people on whom most conventional personality inventories fail (due to the voluntary nature of those inventories).

It's western arrogance that all nature can be brought under control, and the individuals can endlessly improve their lives through 'work'.

I would say it isn't strictly a Western belief that nature can be brought under control. Nor that "work" is the key to improvement--though I think that's at the heart of most well-resulted clinical therapies, Western or otherwise.

Without denying a place for effort to achieve, to fix the fixable problem, to get medical treatments where available and useful, etc. it's worth mentioning that the basic philosophy of 'help' and 'self help,' 'psychological disorder,' and 'cure'(for it) is deeply flawed, if in no other respect than its grandiose, all-embracing scope for 'treatment.'

I think we'd have to establish what the "basic philosophy of ..." entails before we write it off as "deeply flawed". Successes, by case, speak volumes for those notions being "not deeply flawed", for instance. The concept of the "psychological disorder" was and is highly instrumental in the diagnosis and treatment of countless people whose lives were in absolute disarray or danger (to themselves or their loved ones). We would be in a sorry state, I believe, if we didn't have that language and study in regards to things like depression, autism, schizophrenia, and so many more.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

LC....of course shit happens. thats life....but deciding how you're going to tackle what life throws at you is still important...you can't do anything about what life deals you but you can do something about how you react...how you CHOOSE to react is the point.

I don't believe I was disagreeing on that point. Joe was arguing that the woman's advice was all bad, wicked, no no no, because a man has pure choice over his life, which is utter bullshit.

Sure, choosing reactions is a choice we have, and the most important freedom is the freedom to take the consequences.


And a minor point, choosing how you react can be tough. Sometimes your choices are so limited it may seem you only have one choice.

So, now that we have concensus, now what?

Perhaps.... Let's get everything and the stuff together. All right, 3,2,1 let's jam.

<initiate bebop jazz>

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
I don't believe I was disagreeing on that point. Joe was arguing that the woman's advice was all bad, wicked, no no no, because a man has pure choice over his life, which is utter bullshit.

Um... no.

Joe was arguing that her dismissal of his ability to make changes in his life was irresponsible and bad. The problems he was saying he had were not only possible to assert control over, but entirely probable. Smoking and his physical fitness being the simplest ones.

Acceptance of his place and responsibility in his problems and committment to changing them have an excellent chance of success, most especially compared to a belief that there isn't anything he can do about the problems he was unhappy about.

 

[English Lady]

yeah some choices are hardly choices at all. but they are choices.


I never said it was easy. in fact i'm pretty sure i intimated it'd take me at least another 25 years to get the hang of it..if I ever do!


but hey ho. I've made my point now i think

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Um... no.

Joe was arguing that her dismissal of his ability to make changes in his life was irresponsible and bad. The problems he was saying he had were not only possible to assert control over, but entirely probable. Smoking and his physical fitness being the simplest ones.

Acceptance of his place and responsibility in his problems and committment to changing them have an excellent chance of success, most especially compared to a belief that there isn't anything he can do about the problems he was unhappy about.

Yes, but sometimes, there isn't a choice. You can't take back a murder, you can't clean a soul, you can't win back a long lost love, and you can't reach a dream that you're physically or mentally unable to reach. No psychological self-motivation is going to change this.

On the same hand, I was dismissing your dismissal of zen. Her advice was the standard zen advice, "life is, you can't change that". Does zen prohibit ambition, make sure one can do nothing? Possibly. I have personally seen a number of people who have taken a zen acceptance of most things in life and were able to thus achieve things without the massive stress of others.

For instance, smoking. Sure he's unhappy about it, but yelling at him saying it's all your fault that you're smoking. It's all you, you, you is more likely to make him consider suicide than stop smoking. Whereas a zen outlook may make him comfortable enough that he'll decide on his own to stop using smoking as a crutch for his shitty life.

I agree with you on the premise, that we have the ability to take control of those bits of our lives that are ourselves, even if that means a daily struggle with oneself. As an introvert with MPS, I am firmly with you on man's control over himself. I'd be arrested or dead, without it.

On the same hand, there is a place for zen. There is a time when a man must delude himself to remove all the bits. Especially when self-control expands into universe-control, because no man can do that and remain functional.


In other words, I'm partially agreeing with you. Yes, control over the self is important, but that doesn't mean one needs to be quick to dismiss zen. Lord knows, a lot of people would be popping pills like a motherfuck, if it weren't for the ability to look at the world and say "fuck it, it is how it is. Let's stop letting it get me down."

Am I making any sense?

 

[English Lady]

I can see where you're coming from LC.

I don't totally agree but I can see ya point.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Yes, but sometimes, there isn't a choice. You can't take back a murder, you can't clean a soul, you can't win back a long lost love, and you can't reach a dream that you're physically or mentally unable to reach. No psychological self-motivation is going to change this.

I can't speak intelligently about any of those things... things that someone cannot do were not the subject of the incident.

On the same hand, I was dismissing your dismissal of zen. Her advice was the standard zen advice, "life is, you can't change that". Does zen prohibit ambition, make sure one can do nothing? Possibly. I have personally seen a number of people who have taken a zen acceptance of most things in life and were able to thus achieve things without the massive stress of others

For instance, smoking. Sure he's unhappy about it, but yelling at him saying it's all your fault that you're smoking. It's all you, you, you is more likely to make him consider suicide than stop smoking. Whereas a zen outlook may make him comfortable enough that he'll decide on his own to stop using smoking as a crutch for his shitty life.

]

Nobody was yelling. Nobody was saying that it was all his fault. Him deciding on his own to quit, essentially, was my point in the matter. Him dismissing that he is able to make that decision was poor advice, advice I cannot justify as good.

On the same hand, there is a place for zen. There is a time when a man must delude himself to remove all the bits. Especially when self-control expands into universe-control, because no man can do that and remain functional.

There's a Psych professor, Dr. Barrios, who is Buddhist. He's retired, at the moment, but he was my best example to draw advice from concerning "zen-like therapy". Zen, if I understood him correctly, will sooner say that control is possible through the establishing of small factors. You decide how you breathe. You decide how you think. You decide at what pace you want to take yourself. Knowing and concentrating on yourself is key to being able to know and concentrate on things not-self.

He was fond of teaching his classes "showering with rose petals", where he would give everyone a bowl of rose petals before a big test, and have them all take time in the class to think about times in their life where they were so grateful for opportunity that it was like being showered with rose petals. He did this, according to him, to help us learn to appreciate the test as an opportunity to show ourselves and him what we know--not be judged on what we don't. Basically, that if we can understand that him giving us a test was his way of honoring us with a chance to shine, we would feel as though we were showered with rose petals and do better than we expected.

In other words, I'm partially agreeing with you. Yes, control over the self is important, but that doesn't mean one needs to be quick to dismiss zen. Lord knows, a lot of people would be popping pills like a motherfuck, if it weren't for the ability to look at the world and say "fuck it, it is how it is. Let's stop letting it get me down."

Am I making any sense?

Zen, as near as I've ever understood it, is far, far from the apathy of "fuck it"

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I can't speak intelligently about any of those things... things that someone cannot do were not the subject of the incident.



Nobody was yelling. Nobody was saying that it was all his fault. Him deciding on his own to quit, essentially, was my point in the matter. Him dismissing that he is able to make that decision was poor advice, advice I cannot justify as good.



There's a Psych professor, Dr. Barrios, who is Buddhist. He's retired, at the moment, but he was my best example to draw advice from concerning "zen-like therapy". Zen, if I understood him correctly, will sooner say that control is possible through the establishing of small factors. You decide how you breathe. You decide how you think. You decide at what pace you want to take yourself. Knowing and concentrating on yourself is key to being able to know and concentrate on things not-self.

He was fond of teaching his classes "showering with rose petals", where he would give everyone a bowl of rose petals before a big test, and have them all take time in the class to think about times in their life where they were so grateful for opportunity that it was like being showered with rose petals. He did this, according to him, to help us learn to appreciate the test as an opportunity to show ourselves and him what we know--not be judged on what we don't. Basically, that if we can understand that him giving us a test was his way of honoring us with a chance to shine, we would feel as though we were showered with rose petals and do better than we expected.



Zen, as near as I've ever understood it, is far, far from the apathy of "fuck it"

I was speaking more zen the philosophy than zen the religion. The religion is a self-centric spritual exercise, the philosophy is an apathy-like institution with similar self-centric spiritualities but not always all.

If you wish to replace all my zens with apathies, I fully approve. The point will work just as well. Sometimes we all need apathy at well. Carrying about everything can lead to some serious and deadly depression. Just ask sher if you don't believe me. On the other hand, too much apathy can lead to callous and sociopathic behavior.

I guess in some cases, it all comes down to balance at the end.

 

[Pure]

Well said, Luc. Be it 'apathy' or 'melancholia'--now relabled as 'clinical depression' all conditions are not disorders and they do not necessarily require 'treatment' esp from 'helpful' psychologists and psychiatrists. a melancholic phase of life does not need to be prozacked upwards to the mean of contenment.

Assuming ftsoa that Joe is partly correct

//Zen, if I understood him correctly, will sooner say that control is possible through the establishing of small factors. You decide how you breathe. You decide how you think. You decide at what pace you want to take yourself. Knowing and concentrating on yourself is key to being able to know and concentrate on things not-self.//

it is a far cry from 'make a decision, 'work' and change yourself to a better approximation to mental health.'

'deciding how to think' would not be a zen project.

and it might be noted that like other buddhists, the zen folks hold the 'self' to be, at core--so to speak--illusory. hence 'self improvement' is not a zen project either.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Pure
Well said, Luc. Be it 'apathy' or 'melancholia'--now relabled as 'clinical depression' all conditions are not disorders and they do not necessarily require 'treatment' esp from 'helpful' psychologists and psychiatrists. a melancholic phase of life does not need to be prozacked upwards to the mean of contenment.

Assuming ftsoa that Joe is partly correct

Apathy or melancholia is hardly now labeled "clinical depression"... good Lord. Part of Clinical Psychology (which its becoming apparant to me you only have a passive, laymen understanding of) includes the notions that not all conditions are disorders; even a thing being a disorder can be clinical or sub-clinical (which is to say, a serious disruption that needs help and something unpleasant which may not affect the subject's life enough to warrant treatments to much as education on the condition). We don't "prozac" everything.

it is a far cry from 'make a decision, 'work' and change yourself to a better approximation to mental health.'

'deciding how to think' would not be a zen project.

and it might be noted that like other buddhists, the zen folks hold the 'self' to be, at core--so to speak--illusory. hence 'self improvement' is not a zen project either.

Self-improvement, if I understand Zen correctly (and I believe I do), is at the core of their belief. The only thing that can be controlled, truly, is the self (the eight-fold path, itself, is the highest indicator of "here's how you control and improve yourself"). Maybe I'm just reading the wrong books on the matter.