The Allison Mack/Nxivm Sex Slavery Cult

[Marquis]

Not sure if this is being discussed elsewhere, but I've returned exclusively to discuss this. In case you haven't been caught up:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...egedly-a-top-member-of-cult-that-abused-women

Thoughts please.

 

[Jada59]

Not sure if this is being discussed elsewhere, but I've returned exclusively to discuss this. In case you haven't been caught up:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...egedly-a-top-member-of-cult-that-abused-women

Thoughts please.

Very sad.

 

[Blue]

NXIVM is what happens when handful of people get together to take their bdsm fantasies a tad too seriously.

Jokes aside, that seems to be what happened to a degree. This narcissistic man had some D/s fantasies, gathered up some emotionally pliable women with similar interests, and formed a cult using said fantasies as a basis for the internal ideology. Usually a cult will form a rarely-comprehensible ideology that involves abusive practices based on worshipping the figurehead and his/her inner circle, the point is less about the content itself and importance placed on forcing people to believe it with the aim to control the victims actions, since that's ultimately what all cult leaders strive for. They are control freaks taken to the extreme and form cults because of a need to command their surroundings.

So it's no surprise to me that somebody into D/s while simultaneously being mentally disposed to becoming a cult figurehead would base their cult on those interests.

I know Alison Mack is co-conspirator #1 but to me she's a lesser issue. I think people are accidentally ignoring the fact that the cult has been around for over a decade now and the financier of the cult and one of their top members is the daughter of a billionaire, so is by proxy one of the richest people in the world, is a strict devotee and is now heading the cult. It somehow retained its secrecy even though it featured a recruitment program aggressively targeting high-profile celebrities, likely aided by the daughter in the long-term and the connections and influence which that kind of staggering amount of money is attached to.
Once I learned that, the first thing I thought was "how many more of these things could there be?! What other monstrosities is wealth and influence hiding?"

 

[Nezhul]

I'm hearing about this cult for the first time, so I really can't say a lot.

It's also very confusing, because the words "human trafficking" are used, which implies slaves kept in captivity... but then the next thing they say is about someone gathering a bunch of submissive women and forming a cult.

I just can't figure out what exactly happened. Did those women followed into a cult driven by (false?) promises? Or were they, like, kidnapped for real? Did they "agree" to all those things out of devotion to their Master, or were they physically forced to do all of that.

Again, disclaimer: I don't know what really happened.
But I just can't help but have a feeling that they all initially went into it out of their own free will, and then some of them realized they were going too deep and sued the leaders. That's the kind of worry that this article caused me.

I mean, there are plenty hardcore 24/7 BDSM arrangements. With cages, tatooes, strict control and everything. Everything described in the article is not that unnatural in a consensual hardcore master-slave arrangement. Is there a line? I don't know. If a bottom from such relationship gets upset and goes to a police - then what? And how does it differ from a "cult"?

I think it's all really blurred, and the court's verdict will likely depend on how open0minded the judge is. Some judges, I imagine, would call sexual spanking an aggravated assault, if they have a chance, and if the judge is disgusted by BDSM in general (which some peopel are) - then the verdict would be biased.

Again, I don't really know what happened. If they were really held against their will - then there's clearly no excuse. I'm just wondering if they were. If they walked into it on their own, were not held captive or blackmailed into it, if those women were just convinced to play along - then it's their own fault, I think. A man can be convinced by his drunken friends to stick his hand through the bars of a lion cage in the zoo, just for fun. That doesn't make friends responsible for a stupididty that person commited when a lion ate his hand. Similarly, people who get driven into cults can suffer for it - there's no doubt. But I always found that it's stupid to blame anyone but themselves for it.

Once again, don't judge me for saying all this, because I don't know all the facts. I'm just wondering if this thing is an illegal human-trafficking organization - or is it a hardcore BDSM munch with very few restrictions? And how the hell do authorities tell the difference?

 

[Blue]

[..]

I've been following it for a few months.

Summary:
Some deranged guy, Keith Raniere, recruited some mentally vulnerable women into a cult he formed, as they do, the internal ideology of it was based on his own BDSM interests, and no it was largely not consensual.

Many of the women were recruited under the guise of this pocket organization within NXIVM (a company owned by the cult leader purportedly promoting self-help media) being a sort of extra package of that media. They were told, much like Scientology, that the secrets of true happiness would be revealed for a measly few thousand dollars. Then once they had paid and shown interest, the guy and his recruiters (e.g. Allison Mack) pressured these women into providing incriminating and embarrassing information about themselves they could use as blackmail if they ever tried to leave. The 'secrets to true happiness' turned out to be a highly controlling brainwashing regimen and induction into the cult which involved an array of abuses such as Raniere demanding sex from them, being held down and branded against their will, communal living, gruelling housework, etc. It was not consensual, the victims were usually targeted for their wealth and status and not sexual preferences, many were inculcated through threats and intimidation. Generally just many hallmarks of cult life.

I know there are obvious similarities with just hardcore BDSM which makes it a bit confusing but you have to completely remove that aspect of this from your mind and view the bdsm-looking stuff as what it was: an abusive control mechanism themed on bdsm, to get a proper view of it.

 

[Nezhul]

Summary:
Some deranged guy, Keith Raniere, recruited some mentally vulnerable women into a cult he formed, as they do, the internal ideology of it was based on his own BDSM interests, and no it was largely not consensual.

Many of the women were recruited under the guise of this pocket organization within NXIVM (a company owned by the cult leader purportedly promoting self-help media) being a sort of extra package of that media. They were told, much like Scientology, that the secrets of true happiness would be revealed for a measly few thousand dollars. Then once they had paid and shown interest, the guy and his recruiters (e.g. Allison Mack) pressured these women into providing incriminating and embarrassing information about themselves they could use as blackmail if they ever tried to leave. The 'secrets to true happiness' turned out to be a highly controlling brainwashing regimen and induction into the cult which involved an array of abuses such as Raniere demanding sex from them, being held down and branded against their will, communal living, gruelling housework, etc. It was not consensual, the victims were usually targeted for their wealth and status and not sexual preferences, many were inculcated through threats and intimidation. Generally just many hallmarks of cult life.

Well, if it's like you say - then it's clearly all illegal.

Problem here is that I tend to distrust Media presentation, because they are in for a loud scandal more, than for the truth. It's really, really hard to tell how much of it is horrible reality, and how much would be media exaggeration.

Take "Being held against their will for branding" for example. It is really vague. Say a sub is led into a room (walks on her own), told do lie on the table, and she does it. Then one person holds her while the other cunducts a painful branding.
Is it "Holding her against her will"? Well, yes, and no. The context matters, and you aren't given any (or at least I'm not).

Another thing that ticks me off - you are calling them "Mentally vulnerable women". Literally ANYONE could be described as that post-factum, just on the basis of agreeing to something stupid. How mentally vulnerable were they, really? A highly believing person of any religion is mentally vulnerable, because a malicious priest can sure as hell exploit their belief for a personal gain.
We are all mentally vulnerable for SOMETHING. No one's protected from scam. Basically, this definition is rather pointless, unless you are talking about really mentally unwell people.
Yet in the article this phrase makes them look MORE like exploited helpless victims than they probably were. It makes the reader think "Oh my god, they were targeting helpless mentally unprotected women!" instead of just "They targeted women" Stuff like this are tricks used by media to engage you in the story. They often make things sound worse than they are.

That's why I'm saying the line is blurry. Because I can't say. Definitely, as far as BDSM goes, having a communal harem is going too far. The fact that they were lured (for money) to "find happiness" - is probably the main point of fraud here that can't be perverted by the media, because it's really hard making this sound worse than it already is. The cult organizers are probably guilty enough, just based on this.

If they were promised sexual pleasures instead - that would have been totally fine. But you can't promise happiness through anything - be it god or BDSM. Just because for each person happiness is a different thing, and not everyone find it in what YOU have found it.

I still kind-of think that it's their own fault. They got conned, but this happened out of their own stupidity. No, it's not "mental vulnerability". I don't think so, at least.

 

[Nezhul]

I've started reading up on it a bit here:
https://artvoice.com/2018/04/05/all...iness-former-smallville-actress/#.Wt2eluqsaHs

All Mack’s slaves must be on standby 24 hours per day and keep phones by their bedside in case they get a text from her. If they get a text, they must respond within 60 seconds or face punishment – which can include being paddled with a large wooden paddle on their naked buttocks. Mack instituted corporal punishment to instill obedience among women prior to Raniere’s arrest.

So...

They are clearly not living in a commune. They have a smartphone each. Yeah, they need to respond fast or face punishment, but that's not really that uncommon.

They don't come along as "poor captive victims" to me, so far. Or am I not getting something here?

I mean, what do I get out of these articles so far:
- They are physically free to come and go as they please.
- They are however obliged to follow orders from their masters.
- They get punished for disobedience or failure to respond to Master's call.
- They got branded with Master's initials.
- They practice sexual play inside their group.
- They have provided intimate information to the group leaders.
- They are all pretty much well-provided for at the very least, and they have places where they can go instead.

With all due respect, it seems to me that it's their CHOICE to stay in that community.

By the way, I can't find anywhere - what started the entire scandal? Did some of the girls go to the police? Had neighbors/families reported a disturbing activity? What exactly happened?

I don't mean to justify abuse here, but the more I read - the more it comes along as a case of a group living so far outside the norms that they attract attention and finger-pointing.

 

[Blue]

The thing that started the scandal was that some of the victims went to the police.
They had a commune in Mexico.
I call them 'mentally vulnerable', specifically emotionally needy, because those are staples of people who enter into and voluntarily remain within a cult.

You're also confusing 'blackmailed' and 'brainwashed' with 'voluntarily participation'. Just because a person chooses to remain in a cult and is not being held against their will, even if they weren't being pressured to stay, does not equal a healthy and entirely voluntary decision. The thousand people that drank the Kool Aid in Jonestown and died did it voluntarily, they were all being emotionally manipulated to the point that they were all willing to kill themselves on a whim from their figurehead and lived in Jonestown voluntarily, most of them at least. And bear in mind that they were not a thousand unmedicated schizophrenics with voices in their heads telling them to do it, they were regular, ordinary, unassuming people like any other person on this board. Meticulous systems of psychological and emotional abuse can make a person do weird things.

The line isn't blurry for me whatsoever. They had things done to them (case and point: branding), according to them, against their will on the orders of Raniere and legitimately blackmailed into silence.

~ ~ ~

Irrespective of this topic: I've been fascinated by cults for years and recommend everybody read as much academic work as you can find on them, they're a very interesting phenomenon.

 

[where_is_RUTH]

send me a £10 note!
send me your password to lit!

you'd never do that eh?

thousands of people do it every day, a scam is a scam. You are responsible for your own actions (you are also allowed redress in the law even if you were stupid - as long as it was illegal)

 

[Nezhul]

I can give you that they got emotionally manipulated.

But that only brings me to the lion cage again. People are stupid. Their stupidity often gets them into a bad situation - be it with other people or with animals or whatever.

But you've got to remembet that for every one of those women - there was probably a hundred of those who didn't and wouldn't buy into the cult thing and chose to devote their lives to please their Master sexually. Like, really now!

Way I see it, a bunch of women chose to lead this kind of lives, for whatever reason. Then a bunch of them thought better of it, and instead of moving on from their mistake that they made themselves - they decided to go to the police.

Whatever. I guess being branded against one's will sucks. But I would sympathize with them only if they were dragged into a branding room against their will. If they were fine with it at the moment, and then decided that the didn't - it's their own fault. I don't sue a tattoo artists if I stop liking the tattoo a few years later..

 

[where_is_RUTH]

I can give you that they got emotionally manipulated.

But that only brings me to the lion cage again. People are stupid. Their stupidity often gets them into a bad situation - be it with other people or with animals or whatever.

But you've got to remembet that for every one of those women - there was probably a hundred of those who didn't and wouldn't buy into the cult thing and chose to devote their lives to please their Master sexually. Like, really now!

Way I see it, a bunch of women chose to lead this kind of lives, for whatever reason. Then a bunch of them thought better of it, and instead of moving on from their mistake that they made themselves - they decided to go to the police.

Whatever. I guess being branded against one's will sucks. But I would sympathize with them only if they were dragged into a branding room against their will. If they were fine with it at the moment, and then decided that the didn't - it's their own fault. I don't sue a tattoo artists if I stop liking the tattoo a few years later..

Sure. But why can't I find a woman/women like this to service me in my cult? And this dick has a farm of them!

Did someone mention billionaire?

 

[Nezhul]

Sure. But why can't I find a woman/women like this to service me in my cult? And this dick has a farm of them!

Did someone mention billionaire?

Charisma.

No, in reality it wouldn't have worked for him if he tried to get away with just one. It's the entire "cult" thing and the feeling of community that keeps them and pushes them to go further. One gets persuaded to strip, and others think that it's a proper thing to do. It's how cults and sects operate.

You'd have to be a great psychologist and a charismatic person. On the other hand, if you were - you'd have no problem finding an interested woman and then persuading her to worship you as a god.

 

[Marquis]

When I think of human sex trafficking I think of people being kidnapped and forced or significantly coerced (do this or I'll kill your family) into prostitution. This doesn't seem to be the case here. I'm also interested in exactly what the legal issues of the situation are here.

Also, we've gotten details about the induction process and training, but very few on the actual sex. We need details on this for full analysis.

 

[Nezhul]

When I think of human sex trafficking I think of people being kidnapped and forced or significantly coerced (do this or I'll kill your family) into prostitution. This doesn't seem to be the case here. I'm also interested in exactly what the legal issues of the situation are here.

Also, we've gotten details about the induction process and training, but very few on the actual sex. We need details on this for full analysis.

I think legally, if you have scars (branding) to show for it, you can pretty much go to the police and claim abuse. The other party will have a HARD time proving that you were consenting at the time.

And even if you manage to prove that your slave was consenting, and even if slave herself changes her mind and steps to your defense - there are things that Law just doesn't allow, no matter consensually or not. I believe that real body harm and leaked blackmail (reputation harm) is among those things in US, although I'm not sure.

It's basically just that. Even in the scenario best for the cult leaders - they would probably still be found guilty in something like mutilation and abuse.

At the same time don't forget that there's a real chance that claims of forced sexual acts, taking away freedom, and claims of abuse will be found legitimate. If several women in court claim they were forced to sex by this guy through coercion and threats of punishment, then it would be really, REALLY hard to convince the court you are not guilty, even for the most innocent person. For a guys like this - it's nigh impossible, considering all the evidence.

What I really don't understand in this story - is where were families and friends of these women looking. If one of my friends started cutting off ties, moved into communal living, started being over-devoted to some other dude who isn't even her boyfriend - I'd call Police ASAP. If it was my DAUGHTER - I'd literally drag her to the nearest professional institution to get help and consultation. If she's sane, she would not resist that and will see it as an opportunity to quickly sort things out and prove me wrong.

 

[suboots]

In the UK you would not even have to go to the police, they would come to you. The basis of Operation Spanner was that a guy tortured another. ( specifically nailed his genitals to a timber stake) This was a consensual act. The police found out about it and the nailer was nailed, all without a complaint from the nailee.

 

[Nezhul]

In the UK you would not even have to go to the police, they would come to you. The basis of Operation Spanner was that a guy tortured another. ( specifically nailed his genitals to a timber stake) This was a consensual act. The police found out about it and the nailer was nailed, all without a complaint from the nailee.

Yup, that's how it works in most developed countries. If you harm another person, no matter the consent - you'd get in serious trouble with the law.

That's done because otherwise the abusers could easily threaten their victims into saying it was consensual. This would basically open up doors for all sorts of crime going unpunished. Witness pressure is a thing, but at least it doesn't work when there's proof of bodily harm.

Off-topic: That actually makes me wonder if you COULD get around it at all. Say, if you made an official document, vetted by lawyers, signed by a psychiatrist, that you want to get branded with specific brand through specific means. Could you do that king of thing and AVOID your SO getting into trouble? Because, you know, otherwise you could argue that the state is limiting your freedom to do whatever you want with yourself.

 

[where_is_RUTH]

In the UK you would not even have to go to the police, they would come to you. The basis of Operation Spanner was that a guy tortured another. ( specifically nailed his genitals to a timber stake) This was a consensual act. The police found out about it and the nailer was nailed, all without a complaint from the nailee.

I'll go check, but the principle of a 'no witness prosecution' is a sound one.

(never good to assume) for this to stick there should have been cause from the nailer's past.

p.s. is this why my carpenter is not returning my calls? bastard!
p.p.s how did plod find out?

 

[Nezhul]

p.p.s how did plod find out?

If he went to a hospital afterwards - doctors are obliged by law to call the police. The do it for any stab wounds or bullet wounds, as well as any serious mutilation and injury. They HAVE TO call the cops.

Otherwise, if neighbors heard screaming, they could call too.

 

[where_is_RUTH]

as with all good threads there can be some drift in topic. hope the OP doesn't mind?

 

[where_is_RUTH]

1987 Manchester, England.

Investigation
The police had obtained a video which they believed depicted acts of sadistic torture, and they launched a murder investigation, convinced that the people in the video were being tortured before being killed. This resulted in raids on a number of properties, and a number of arrests.

The apparent "victims" were alive and well, and soon told the police that they were participating in private BDSM activities. Although all of those seen in the videos stated that they were willing participants in the activities, the police and Crown Prosecution Service insisted on pressing charges. Sixteen men were charged with various offences, including assault occasioning actual bodily harm.
(please excuse the wikipeadia post above

there is going to be a difference in US/UK law here. (1987 was a long time ago - in law terms)

feel free to jump up and down and claim rights.

the state can (and does) over-rule your right to X,Y,Z,

hmm I'm going to go have a brew.

 

[Nezhul]

Well, just as I said the Police is pressing charges regardless of what "victims" think of it.

I wonder though. In wikipedia it says that women said they were consenting, but are there those who said they weren't? Blue's posts seemed to imply as much.

And if none of the women accused the cult leaders, then how does it change the discussion?

I actually think that even if none of the women accuse the leaders - bodily harm in the form of branding is still unacceptable. There are some limits that our society just don't take currently, and scarring is one such thing. It's irresponsible to engage in such activities while they are considered an offense regardless of consent. Although if there aren't charges of abuse from victims themselves - I think jail time is still an inappropriate punishment.
I mean, if you want marks - just give them some tattoos. They do carry the same idea - Nazi used tattoos and not branding, and they worked just fine for them (not implying they were right, of course).

 

[Blue]

I actually think that even if none of the women accuse the leaders - bodily harm in the form of branding is still unacceptable.
[...]
I mean, if you want marks - just give them some tattoos. They do carry the same idea - Nazi used tattoos and not branding, and they worked just fine for them (not implying they were right, of course).

Some of the women are accusing the leaders, that's where the charge of sex trafficking is coming from. They allege that Raniere & Co. blackmailed them into having sex with him and others. The charges will probably get expanded to include assault due to the branding. [information prohibited per our forum guidelines]


I'm pretty sure the inspiration of branding them came from it being something that Raniere personally gets off on.

 

[Nezhul]

Blue, I've read the part that got moderated. (BTW, the justice-mods clearly have nothing better to do, this is unacceptable).

Well, that's a much more serious accusation, although I'm surprised that none of the articles mention that.

Also that's what I'm talking about when I say that media is super-unreliable.
One article says that the women stated it was all consensual but the law-enforcement started the case regardless.
Another artickle says of human trafficking and being forcefully fucked against their will.
Another yet talks about blackmail.
And now you tell me there's also that thing that's prohibited by forum rules but everyone knows what it is. And actually that thing is so juicy that I can't help but wonder HOW other media outlets failed to mention it. It's pretty much a bigger deal than the BDSM-sect itself.

In short - I can't form a reliable picture. The media sources vary so much in their representation of the story, that I'm beginning to doubt if they aren't just making things up and stretching truths in attempts to make the scandal better and louder than their competition.

 

[Blue]

I think it's under-reported because it's one of the shakiest allegations against him, the evidence is an only partially substantiated claim from a [person] Raniere was tutoring in 1994 and quickly developed behavioural issues around that time, leading the people around that person to assume abuse.
I would issue a correction on the age of said person if I was allowed to.

You have a point about the dramatization of this whole thing. It's blatantly true that Alison Mack is receiving far more publicity than Raniere himself or the primary financier of the cult, reason being because she's the biggest name involved and sex cults make sexy news and therefore big ratings. You hear "Sex cult!" being screamed from every news outlet there is but rarely more than light, if any, details on the actual abuses and actions perpetuated by said cult. I got way more information from reading the FBI's justification for an arrest warrant than from any news source.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4421505-Complaint-and-affidavit-in-support-of-arrest.html

 

[Marquis]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4421505-Complaint-and-affidavit-in-support-of-arrest.html

Here we go.