Thank God America is not like Europe...yet (Murray)

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Leading conservative intellectual, Charles Murray, excerpts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032001779.html?nav=hcmoduletmv

Thank God America Isn't Like Europe -- Yet

By Charles Murray

Sunday, March 22, 2009; Page B02

Do we want the United States to be like Europe?

The European model has worked in many ways. I am delighted whenever I get a chance to go to Stockholm or Amsterdam, not to mention Rome or Paris. There's a lot to like -- a lot to love -- about day-to-day life in Europe. But I argue that the answer to this question is "no." Not for economic reasons. I want to focus on another problem with the European model: namely, that it drains too much of the life from life.


The stuff of life -- the elemental events surrounding birth, death, raising children, fulfilling one's personal potential, dealing with adversity, intimate relationships -- occurs within just four institutions: family, community, vocation and faith. Seen in this light, the goal of social policy is to ensure that those institutions are robust and vital. The European model doesn't do that. It enfeebles every single one of them.


Drive through rural Sweden, as I did a few years ago. In every town was a beautiful Lutheran church, freshly painted, on meticulously tended grounds, all subsidized by the Swedish government. And the churches are empty. Including on Sundays. The nations of Scandinavia and Western Europe pride themselves on their "child-friendly" policies, providing generous child allowances, free day-care centers and long maternity leaves. Those same countries have fertility rates far below replacement and plunging marriage rates. [...], they are countries where work is most often seen as a necessary evil, [...]


Call it the Europe Syndrome. Last April I had occasion to speak in Zurich, where I made some of these same points. Afterward, a few of the 20-something members of the audience came up and said plainly that the phrase "a life well-lived" did not have meaning for them. They were having a great time with their current sex partner and new BMW and the vacation home in Majorca, and they saw no voids in their lives that needed filling.


It was fascinating to hear it said to my face, but not surprising. It conformed to both journalistic and scholarly accounts of a spreading European mentality that goes something like this: Human beings are a collection of chemicals that activate and, after a period of time, deactivate. The purpose of life is to while away the intervening time as pleasantly as possible.


If that's the purpose of life, then work is not a vocation, but something that interferes with the higher good of leisure. If that's the purpose of life, why have a child, when children are so much trouble? If that's the purpose of life, why spend it worrying about neighbors? If that's the purpose of life, what could possibly be the attraction of a religion that says otherwise?


I stand in awe of Europe's past. Which makes Europe's present all the more dispiriting. And should make it something that concentrates our minds wonderfully, for every element of the Europe Syndrome is infiltrating American life as well. The European model provides the intellectual framework for the social policies of the Democratic Party, and it faces no credible opposition from Republican politicians.


Yet not only is the European model inimical to human flourishing, I predict that 21st-century science is going to explain why. A tidal change in our scientific understanding of what makes humans tick is coming,[...]. Whether it's psychologists discovering how fetal testosterone affects sex differences in children's behavior or geneticists using haplotypes to differentiate the Dutch from the Italians, the hard sciences are encroaching on questions of race, class and gender that have been at the center of modern social science. And the tendency of the findings lets us predict with some confidence the broad outlines of what the future will bring.


Two premises about human beings are at the heart of the social democratic agenda: what I label "the equality premise" and "the New Man premise." The equality premise says that, in a fair society, different groups of people -- men and women, blacks and whites, straights and gays -- will naturally have the same distributions of outcomes in life -- the same mean income, the same mean educational attainment, the same proportions who become janitors and who become CEOs. When that doesn't happen, it is because of bad human behavior and an unfair society. Much of the Democratic Party's proposed domestic legislation assumes that this is true.


I'm confident that within a decade, the weight of the new scientific findings will force the left to abandon the equality premise. But if social policy cannot be built on the premise that group differences must be eliminated, what can it be built upon? It can be built upon the premise that used to be part of the warp and woof of American idealism: People must be treated as individuals. The success of social policy is to be measured not by equality of outcomes for groups, but by the freedom of individuals, acting upon their personal abilities, aspirations and values, to seek the kind of life that best suits them.


The second tendency of the new findings of biology will be to show that the New Man premise -- which says that human beings are malleable through the right government interventions -- is nonsense. Human nature tightly constrains what is politically or culturally possible. More than that, the new findings will confirm that human beings are pretty much the way that wise observers have thought for thousands of years.


The effects on the policy debate will be sweeping. Let me give you a specific example. For many years, I have been among those who argue that the growth in births to unmarried women has been a social catastrophe -- the single most important force behind the growth of the underclass. [...]scholars and I have been able to prove that other family structures have not worked as well as the traditional family[...]


Over the next few decades, advances in evolutionary psychology are going to be conjoined with advances in genetic understanding, and I predict that they will lead to a scientific consensus that goes something like this: There are genetic reasons why boys who grow up in neighborhoods without married fathers tend to reach adolescence unsocialized to norms of behavior that they will need to stay out of prison and hold jobs. We will still be able to acknowledge that many single women do a wonderful job of raising their children. But social democrats will have to acknowledge that the traditional family plays a special, indispensable role in human flourishing and that social policy must be based on that truth.


For some years a metaphor has been stuck in my mind: The 20th century was the adolescence of Homo sapiens. Nineteenth-century science, from Darwin to Freud, offered a series of body blows to ways of thinking about human life that had prevailed since the dawn of civilization. Humans, just like adolescents, were deprived of some of the comforting simplicities of childhood and exposed to more complex knowledge about the world.

And 20th-century intellectuals reacted precisely the way adolescents react when they think they have discovered that Mom and Dad are hopelessly out of date. It was as if they thought that if Darwin was right about evolution, then Aquinas was no longer worth reading; that if Freud was right about the unconscious mind, then the Nicomachean Ethics had nothing to teach us.


The nice thing about adolescence is that it is temporary, and when it passes, people discover that their parents were smarter than they thought. I think that may be happening with the advent of the new century. All of us who deal in social policy will be thinking less like adolescents[...]. They will have to ask themselves how much they value what has made America exceptional, and what they are willing to do to preserve it.


The trouble is that American elites of all political stripes have increasingly withdrawn to gated communities -- literally or figuratively -- where they never interact at an intimate level with people not of their own socioeconomic class. Over the last half-century, the new generation of elites have increasingly spent their entire lives in the upper-middle-class bubble,[...] America's elites must once again fall in love with what makes America different.

The drift toward the European model can be stopped only when we are all talking again about why America is exceptional, and why it is so important that America remain exceptional. That requires once again seeing the American project for what it is: a different way for people to live together, unique among the nations of the earth, and immeasurably precious.


Charles Murray is the W. H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This essay is adapted from his 2009 Irving Kristol Lecture.
 
If this is all we Europeans have to put up with after 300-odd years of deporting our religious extremists to America, I'm happy with how that trade has worked our for us. "Faith-based" idiots with nuclear arsenals - our more recent cause for regrets - strike me as a worse consequence than a think-tank flyweight who hopes science is (someday) going to construct a rational base for his prejudices.
 
If this is all we Europeans have to put up with after 300-odd years of deporting our religious extremists to America, I'm happy with how that trade has worked our for us. "Faith-based" idiots with nuclear arsenals - our more recent cause for regrets - strike me as a worse consequence than a think-tank flyweight who hopes science is (someday) going to construct a rational base for his prejudices.

Way to make Europeans look measured and well informed regarding Americans! Fortunately for me, this only sounds like the way my country is portrayed on BBC America. Not the way America is.

Europe exporting the crazies is a rather lame argument considering it's often war and hardship that brought immigrants here.

Cool essay, Pure.

I had no idea churches were subsidized.

The trend toward believing we're all only chemical processes is alive and well in America, though. I find it as amusing as the occasionally expressed European belief that I'm a war mongering, Mcdonald's eating, gas guzzling ignoramus who can't find my own country on a map.

Fortunately my mama's from the South and she taught me manners. Not that I always use them.
 
I think I'm gonna write an essay about Americans, and draw my conclusion on the mindset and ideology of everyone from Alaska to Argentina, based on a few select observations of young upper class careerists in Boston.

You think I'd be taken seriously? :rolleyes:
 
I think I'm gonna write an essay about Americans, and draw my conclusion on the mindset and ideology of everyone from Alaska to Argentina, based on a few select observations of young upper class careerists in Boston.

You think I'd be taken seriously? :rolleyes:

Not by me! :D
 
I had no idea churches were subsidized.
They're not. At least not here.

Some church buildings are cared for by the counties they're in. Because they're part of local history, and it would be a pity if they fel into disrepair because the church organisation doing their thing there may not have the nessecary funds to keep a centuries old building in prime shape. And some of the major ones in big cities are seen as national cultural heritage.

Is the Lincoln Memorial subsidized?
 
They're not. At least not here.

Some church buildings are cared for by the counties they're in. Because they're part of local history, and it would be a pity if they fel into disrepair because the church organisation doing their thing there may not have the nessecary funds to keep a centuries old building in prime shape. And some of the major ones in big cities are seen as national cultural heritage.

Is the Lincoln Memorial subsidized?

It's a difference in thought structure and practical structure.

As much as America embraces freedom of religion, it embraces freedom FROM religion.

Lincoln Memorial is not a religious site. Definite zoning difference. Here that'd be like comparing industrial to residential. Entirely different set of construction and maintenance allowances and legal situations. Since separation of church and state is a national tenet, to me they don't compare and to me that was the most interesting part of the article.

I am most interested in the fact that since American churches rely on their own promotion efforts, we get everything from overblown glass cathedrals to churches run out of strip malls next to pizza joints.

But it also means that if a church can't support itself, it's out of business. If the attending community can't get a bake sale going, that's too bad.

It is treated as a business by Americans, even if the building is historical. In order to be supported financially by anything but the Church in question, it would probably have to be - deholyized or defrocked or whatever. I'm clearly not an expert.

Closest comparison might be toward communities caring for historical buildings. But that's local, not state or federal, and usually entirely private.

Government directly funding preservation or maintenance efforts of religious buildings doesn't happen, any more than government funding is handed out for the oldest spot of McDonalds for preservation efforts.

The government does very little direct preservation, that's all locally determined.

But if I'm wrong on this in degree or legal terms, I'm open to correction. Again, not an expert, this is just my take on it, wrong or right.
 
It's a difference in thought structure and practical structure.

As much as America embraces freedom of religion, it embraces freedom FROM religion.

Lincoln Memorial is not a religious site. Definite zoning difference. Here that'd be like comparing industrial to residential. Entirely different set of construction and maintenance allowances and legal situations. Since separation of church and state is a national tenet, to me they don't compare and to me that was the most interesting part of the article.

I am most interested in the fact that since American churches rely on their own promotion efforts, we get everything from overblown glass cathedrals to churches run out of strip malls next to pizza joints.

But it also means that if a church can't support itself, it's out of business. If the attending community can't get a bake sale going, that's too bad.

It is treated as a business by Americans, even if the building is historical. In order to be supported financially by anything but the Church in question, it would probably have to be - deholyized or defrocked or whatever. I'm clearly not an expert.

Closest comparison might be toward communities caring for historical buildings. But that's local, not state or federal, and usually entirely private.

Government directly funding preservation or maintenance efforts of religious buildings doesn't happen, any more than government funding is handed out for the oldest spot of McDonalds for preservation efforts.

The government does very little direct preservation, that's all locally determined.

But if I'm wrong on this in degree or legal terms, I'm open to correction. Again, not an expert, this is just my take on it, wrong or right.
You bog yourself down with the word "religion" here. The Government (And that includes the local, elected county officials who may have funds to disrtribute. So yes, locally detemined here too) does not preserve churches. They preserve buldings that they think have cultutral value. Landmarks. Historic sites. Architecture. Places with stories. Some of those happens to be churches (again, church buildings, not church activity). Some are old castles. Some are monuments and statues, or even "old town" city centres.

So yes, it's exactly and precisely like the Lincoln Memorial.

That being said, other parts of Europe have state sponsored religion. The philosophy, politics and mindset in places like Italy, Poland and Greece in regards to religion is so different from that of Scandinavians that I feel more familiar with the united States than with south and east Europe.

Which was my point from the get go. The author talks about Europe. As if there was a single unifying idea holding it together. It's like saying that Canada and Brazil are the same, guided by the same mindset, because they share a geographic nomer.
 
They're not. At least not here.

Some church buildings are cared for by the counties they're in. Because they're part of local history, and it would be a pity if they fel into disrepair because the church organisation doing their thing there may not have the nessecary funds to keep a centuries old building in prime shape. And some of the major ones in big cities are seen as national cultural heritage.

Is the Lincoln Memorial subsidized?

I think it is the same here, if some churches are considered part of local or national history, the churches do get subsidies for bigger restoration projects.

And here we actually have a church tax, which everyone still registered with any religious group that is eligible pays. According to Wikipedia, that makes up 70 % of their income. I think Austria and Switzerland have a similar model. Considering that the membership numbers are dropping consistently, the churches are actually not doing overly well financially and are downsizing more and more.
 
You bog yourself down with the word "religion" here. The Government (And that includes the local, elected county officials who may have funds to disrtribute. So yes, locally detemined here too) does not preserve churches. They preserve buldings that they think have cultutral value. Landmarks. Historic sites. Architecture. Places with stories. Some of those happens to be churches (again, church buildings, not church activity). Some are old castles. Some are monuments and statues, or even "old town" city centres.

So yes, it's exactly and precisely like the Lincoln Memorial.

That being said, other parts of Europe have state sponsored religion. The philosophy, politics and mindset in places like Italy, Poland and Greece in regards to religion is so different from that of Scandinavians that I feel more familiar with the united States than with south and east Europe.

Which was my point from the get go. The author talks about Europe. As if there was a single unifying idea holding it together. It's like saying that Canada and Brazil are the same, guided by the same mindset, because they share a geographic nomer.

No, the Lincoln Memorial IS supported, maintained and paid for by the government.

Church buildings are not.

It's not boggy at all. It's distinct.
 
Which was my point from the get go. The author talks about Europe. As if there was a single unifying idea holding it together. It's like saying that Canada and Brazil are the same, guided by the same mindset, because they share a geographic nomer.

You mean you are not enjoying sex with your current partner in your new BMW or your house in Majorca? Heretic!
 
No, the Lincoln Memorial IS supported, maintained and paid for by the Government.

Church buildings are not.
Argh.

Did you even read my post?

The Government over here pays for the preservation of historically important buildings and sites.

WHY is the Lincoln Memorial supported, maintained and paid for by the Government? because it's a historically and symbolicaly important site.

So yes, it's exactly the same.
 
You mean you are not enjoying sex with your current partner in your new BMW or your house in Majorca? Heretic!
Weren't those the Swiss? We're pretty much like the Swiss. It's south of the Alps it gets weird.
 
Argh.

Did you even read my post?

The Government over here pays for the preservation of historically important buildings and sites.

WHY is the Lincoln Memorial supported, maintained and paid for by the Government? because it's a historically and symbolicaly important site.

So yes, it's exactly the same.

Yes, I did read your post.

Argh notwithstanding.

I GET that Europeans are supporting their religious sites in the way that Americans support their government sites.

I don't think you're getting that Americans do not support religious sites as a community. But if you don't, and you're going to insist I'm being obtuse instead of trying to also see my point, that's okay too.

Doesn't change reality.
 
Weren't those the Swiss? We're pretty much like the Swiss. It's south of the Alps it gets weird.

Well, I presumed that he stipulated this was the omnipresent European mindset, or new philosophy, at least for twenty-somethings. I suppose there are no equivalents for that in America. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, I did read your post.

Argh notwithstanding.

I GET that Europeans are supporting their religious sites in the way that Americans support their government sites.

I don't think you're getting that Americans do not support religious sites as a community. But if you don't, and you're going to insist I'm being obtuse instead of trying to also see my point, that's okay too.

Doesn't change reality.
Again, it's not religious sites. It's historic sites. Some are old church buildings. Others are non religious. And many churches recieve no state funded maintenance at all. Either because they don't need it, or because they're not important enough pieces of architecture. That's the main reason for preserving those houses. The architecture. The murals, the ornaments, the organs, the landscaping.

They are art history. And political history. Living museums.

That's reality.

Are you saying that a building of great historical or cultural significance in the United States would be barred from Government sponsored maintenance because it also is or was a house where religious activities took place?
 
Again, it's not religious sites. It's historic sites. Some are old church buildings. Others are non religious. And many churched recieve no state sponsored maintenance. Either because it doesn't need it, or because it's not an important enough piece of architecture. That's the main reason for preserving those houses. The architecture. The murals, the ornaments, the organs, the landscaping.

They are art history. Living museums.

That's reality.

Are you saying that a building of great historical or cultural significance in the United States would be barred from Government sponsored maintenance because it also is or was a house where religious activities took place?

Pretty much, yes. That's what I'm driving at.

That's why I was saying the site pretty much needs to be de-holified.

If it's supported for historical purposes, it's likely going to be a museum, not an active church.
 
Pretty much, yes. That's what I'm driving at.

That's why I was saying the site pretty much needs to be de-holified.

If it's supported for historical purposes, it's likely going to be a museum, not an active church.
Ok, then I get what you're aiming at.

But an "active chuch" is not a bulding. It's a congregation of people. I get that their activities should not be sponsored by the tax payers. That doesn't happen here either. Goverment may step in and preserve a bulding in need of it. If there was a congregation using the house, they probably had a lease for it anyway. That doesn't change just because someone comes in and does renovation.

How about a pastor who holds a sermon for his followers on the lawn in a city park? Can he do that? Or must the Government maintained park also be de-holified? Not trying to nitpick on you here, just curious where the limits and consistency of a principle like that are.
 
Ok, then I get what you're aiming at.

But an "active chuch" is not a bulding. It's a congregation of people. I get that their activities should not be sponsored by the tax payers. That doesn't happen here either. Goverment may step in and preserve a bulding in need of it. If there was a congregation using the house, they probably had a lease for it anyway. That doesn't change just because someone comes in and does renovation.

How about a pastor who holds a sermon for his followers on the lawn in a city park? Can he do that? Or must the Government maintained park also be de-holified? Not trying to nitpick on you here, just curious where the limits and consistency of a principle like that are.

Okay.

This is a difference of opinion and law between European and American minds.

Art here is expected to support itself or give way to better (and by better I don't mean aesthetics. I mean...something beautiful that isn't visited by enough to support it financially can't be that good...sorta thinking) art. Same with buildings and businesses and religions are included in the category of businesses.

An active church is a business, and as such it's expected (here) to produce enough revenue through its daily activities, charity or fundraising to maintain itself.

We have plenty of history and heritage in terms of things that aren't buildings. National Parks tend to honor the beauty of the landscape, and those are the types of things we preserve with more of a patriotic and heartfelt awe in the way that Europeans savor the history of the humans and what they built there. I think here we honor the rocks and the trees much more. It's been here longer and is in many ways much more awe inspiring. Mother Nature is subsidized here, lavishly.

Buildings are just buildings. True, Europe may have some gorgeous ones, and that's worth preserving. But keep in mind we're less than 200 years old here in general, and we ARE aware of our youth. And two hundred years ago people were building forts and military places. You might find a little church or a Quaker meeting place preserved, but if it's still active, there's no government near.

Most of the ginormous buildings that consider themselves landmarks make their money with tourist dollars. A cathedral I can think of that functions this way and might even be vaguely comparable to a European cathedral in construction, if not age and history, is St. John The Divine. Entirely open to the public and with a gift shop.

No government in sight.

I can't name any gorgeous American building that I adore and think deserves to be supported by the government, but Yosemite and the Grand Canyon had better be.

That's a much more typical American attitude. We're not concerned with competing with Europe as far as history or castles or buildings go. That's not our thing.

I'm really not sure about the street corner thing. You can meet in the park to do whatever you want, from a drum circle to a prayer group to practicing Tai Chi. Just don't be a nuisance and don't disrupt other people, and if you plan on a gathering, get a license and make sure local law enforcement's gonna know you're there.

I think Europeans put themselves in history with buildings and human legacies. Americans really put themselves in place with the land. You're much more likely to want to go to the Appalachian trail or the shoreline for a sense of place and history here.
 
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The US Government preserves plenty of church buildings. Most are located on Civil War battlefields, but some arent. Generally the buildings have historical significance.
 
Crap (American expression)

Why do we bother to debate this crap. The basic premise of the writer that there is a single set of either American or European ideals or worldviews is drivel.

After that the writer drivels on ad nauseum. (european expession):(.
 
The US Government preserves plenty of church buildings. Most are located on Civil War battlefields, but some arent. Generally the buildings have historical significance.

Yup, and then those buildings will be open to the public for historical reasons. My understanding, anyway.

Happy to be corrected on the ins and outs of the actual law state to state.
 
RECIDIVA

Locally the county bought an old church for preservation on a site that exhibits historical buildings. Its part of a museum.
 
RECIDIVA

Locally the county bought an old church for preservation on a site that exhibits historical buildings. Its part of a museum.

Cool, thanks.

In the South there's that. In the North, there's sites of the Revolution or Quaker or Shaker or Candlestickmaker.

In the West it's "Lots of people died here of starvation and buffalo fever"
 
Cool, thanks.

In the South there's that. In the North, there's sites of the Revolution or Quaker or Shaker or Candlestickmaker.

In the West it's "Lots of people died here of starvation and buffalo fever"

Nah, in the West it's Spanish missions and Indian adobes. I can think of several old Spanish missions that are supported by the government and used for religious services.
 
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