Testudo Kleimanni - Advice Appreciated

[Laurel]

No, it's not a fetish, nor is it a chapter in the Kama Sutra. Testudo Kleimanni, aka the Egyptian Tortoise, is a herp from the Mediterranean. They are very small tortoises, growing to be 4-5" at the top end. They supposedly live 40-60 years, though their exact life span - like much of their lives - is still being learned, as tortoise breeding is a relatively new endeavor. They are extremely amiable - they'll eat out of your hand, crawl on you, and be your friend. They are endangered in their native land because of diminishing habitat, but luckily there are many breeders around the world who enjoy the animal and don't want to see it disappear from the planet, and thus are setting about to breed these beautiful, sweet little creatures.

Why am I giving this lesson on herpetology? Because sometime next week, I will be the proud owner of a male/female pair of 9-month-old, 1.5" little baby tortoises.

I'm posting this in the hopes that someone here might have knowledge of or experience with Mediterranean tortoises, and might be able to offer advice. The only tortoise I've ever owned was a box tortoise, which dug its way out of its are when I was 7 years old. I've read the forums at kingsnake.com, and well as many of the articles at TortoiseTrust.com. There's much disagreement between the experts on a number of points. The ones that concern me are:

1) What is a proper substrate? I'm planning on using rabbit pellets, as I've heard terrible stories of tortoise death by sand impaction, and I haven't heard of any adverse effects from the use of rabbit pellets. I have a container full of timothy hay for them to burrow in. Does this sound adequate?

2) How much light is needed? Their permanent home won't be ready for two weeks - it will be a 60"x24"x14" vivarium with vents on top and bottom to reduce humidity and allow excess heat to escape. The permanent vivarium will have a full-spectrum flourescent tube and an incandescent basking light. I've seen black lights for sale at reptile stores - do my tortoises need this? Since they're going to be living indoors, I plan on taking them outside in a pen on the lawn and allowing them to graze every day. Would a half hour be sufficient sunlight, or is more time needed?

3) As a heat source, I'm looking at the a pro-heat radiating panels instead of a ceramic bulb, because the panels are supposedly less of a fire hazard, use less energy, and distribute heat more evenly. Does anyone have experience with these?

I sincerely apologize to anyone I've bored/offended by my tortoise rant. All my friends think I'm weird (I'm not exactly the kind of girl you'd think would love a reptile), but I dig the little buggers. Any opinions from anyone with any experience would be much appreciated!

 

[Xander]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Tortoise.

Oh, it's been many years since I've owned one of those little buggers Anyway, here is my experiences with them.

Sand?? Okay, only to be used with tortoises who has it in their natural habitant. And about all those horrible death stories connected with it. Well, it happens usually because of four factors. Too much Sand, Too much light, too much heat. And too small living space.
The little buggers only needs so much light and heat. And if there is too much, they will dig themselves a cooling shelter. Now if they do that, and don't have enough space to navigate in. In addition to too much sand. The little one cannot get out again. And thus will suffercate in the sand.

Now, don't use too much artificial light. The sun is usually enough. A lightbulp will only confuse the little one and he/she won't know day from night. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea on a cloudy day. But otherwise, I wouldn't use too much of it.

Heat: Look up what the temperature is in their natural habitant. Keep the temperature as it is there. Hotter in the day and cooler in the night. Just like if they were living in the wild.
Don't have their home standing close to the aircondition or something like that. They will feel it.
Now I used a ceramic bulb. But that was only because I couldn't get anything else at the time.

As for taking them outside everyday. Good idea, and since San Diego temperature is generally high. It shouldn't be a problem at all. Depending on the weather they can be outside for as long as you please. Just keep an eye on them. I used to have mine outside all day on hot summer days. They really like it.

Okay, that's about it. I hope it helps Laurel
Good luck with the little ones. They'll grow on you. Trust me on that one.

 

[Sonora]

Is there a veternarian in your area experienced in turtles? Maybe a vet school or someone at the SD Zoo that you could contact for more info/answers to your questions?

Good luck and have fun with the little ones!

 

[Gingersnap]

Congratulations on your impending arrivals. I would love to see a picture of them when you get a chance. Also could you let me know where you got them? They sound wonderful..

 

[Laurel]

Xander - wow! Thanks for the info! Did you own a kleimanni or another Mediterranean tortoise like a graeca or a hermanni? They're soo cool, but soo hard to keep! After reading about how sensitive they are and how much care they require, I can't believe my parents gave me a tortoise when I was a kid. I read a statistic somewhere that said that 90% of the tortoises imported between 1990-1995 died before reaching two years of age...

I would never, ever buy an imported tortoise, only a captive bred one. For one thing, they're hardier and friendlier, and already adapted to captive live. For another, I don't want to support tortoise poaching. Reputable dealers get their tortoises by legal means and take the time to breed them in such as a way as to produce healthy, happy, beautiful little guys.

Sonora - thanks for the suggestion. The zoo would be a good source... The biggest problem I've found is that all the "experts" disagree vastly on basic topics such as lighting, food, and substrate (that's the stuff they crawl around in, for you non-turtle people). But I hadn't thought about the zoo as a source of info, so I'll definitely check that out.

Gingersnap - I will put up pics as soon as I can. I purchased them from a guy named Terry Lilley, a dealer with a good reputation and solid history (over 20 years experience). He sells all sorts of animals, as he acts as a dealer for many other breeders. His web page is at:
http://www.kingsnake.com/centralcoastreptiles/

BTW, Kingsnake.com is an awesome resource if you're looking to buy any king of reptile or amphibian. They have links to hundreds of other sites, as well as message boards for the different animals and other cool stuff.

Oooh! I'm so excited... Last weekend I planted a little container garden full of tortoise foods - grasses and flowers and lil plants. It won't be tortoise-ready for 60 days, but once it's germinated and growing I'll be able to graze my little ones out in the sun every day, in addition to their regular meal with vitamin supplements on it. Yummy! Yes, I'm a freak...

 

[Xander]

Always happy to help
Actually yes Laurel. I did own a Kleimanni. But be advised, I only know what I told you because I did a piss poor job at it, the first time I owned one. (I was only a kid back then)
It was better the next time, and Andrea (That was her name) lived long life
Yep the little buggers do need a lot of care.

I hope everything goes well with them.

 

[Jade]

Laurel,

As the wife of a "herpetology major" I was going to proudly recommend kingsnake.com but it appears you have already found it. According to him that really is the best site!

Tortoises can be extremely loving and sweet pets and are very charming and good natured, but since you have had one I am sure you know that as well.

You will be a fabulous tortoise mommy again I am sure of it!

Good luck!

And maybe we will run into one another on an animal message board! (another good animal board is acmepet.com).

 

[Sonora]

I have to confess that I never would have thought of the zoo if it hadn't been for Xander mentioning San Diego. The San Diego Zoo is the first thing that I think of when I see San Diego.

It sounds like the breeder may turn out to be your best resource. With a good rep and being in business for so long he's got to be doing something right. I'm no expert or anything (never had a turtle in my life), but I think that I would at least house the new babies as they have been used to prior to your acquiring them. I guess what I'm saying is don't try to make too many changes in their habitat at one time. However, I would still encourage you to continue your research because not every situation is the same.