'Teaching to the test': Part II

[Ishmael]

Thomas Sowell

August 21, 2002

'Teaching to the test': Part II

One of the objections by the educational establishment to state-mandated tests for students is that this forces the teachers to teach directly the material that is going to be tested, instead of letting the students "discover" what they need to know through their own trial and error, under the guidance of teachers acting as "facilitators"
from the sidelines.

In other words, the students should not simply be taught the ready-made rules of mathematics or science but discover them for themselves. The fact that this approach has failed, time and again, to produce students who can hold their own in international tests with students from other countries only turns the American education establishment against tests.

Discovery learning is just one of the many fads in education circles today. Only someone with no real knowledge or understanding of the history of ideas could take such a fad seriously.

It took more than a century of dedicated work by economists of genius to arrive at the analysis of supply and demand that is routinely taught in the first week of Economics 1. How long are novices in economics supposed to flounder around trying to "discover" these same principles?

Nobody believes that the way to train pilots is to let them "discover" the principles of flight that the Wright brothers arrived at -- after years of effort, trial and error. Would anyone even try to teach people how to drive an automobile by taking them out on a highway and letting them "discover" how it is done?

The issue is not what sounds plausible but what actually works. But judging one method of teaching against another by the end results that each produces is the last thing that our fad-ridden educators want. That is at the heart of their objections to having to "teach to the test" instead of engaging in "creative" teaching and
"discovery learning" by students -- as they arbitrarily define these terms, and simply assume that these methods work.

The education establishment's bitter opposition to the testing of students by independent outsiders with standardized tests is perfectly understandable for people who do not want to have to put up or shut up. For decades, the ultimate test of any teaching method has been whether it was fashionable among educators.

Educational philosophies that have been put to the test in other countries -- Russia in the 1920s and China in the 1960s, for example -- and which have failed miserably there, as they are now failing here, continue in vogue because there are no consequences for failure here. Not so long as teachers have iron-clad tenure and get paid by seniority rather than results.

At the heart of the problem of educational failure is the low academic quality of the people who become teachers and principals. This low academic quality has been documented by empirical research so many times, over so many years, that it is incredible how this crucial fact gets overlooked again and again in discussions of the problems of our schools.

So long as teacher training courses in education schools are Mickey Mouse, they are going to repel many intelligent people who would like to teach, and we are going to be left with the dregs of the college students. When the resulting pool of "certified" teachers consists disproportionately of these dregs, do not expect them to be even intellectually oriented, much less intellectually competent.

It is impossible to understand what is happening in our schools without understanding the kind of people who run them. But, once you see the poor academic quality of those people, you can easily understand why textbooks have been dumbed down and why there is such bitter opposition by educators to letting exceptionally bright children be taught in separate classes with more advanced material. Do not expect intellectual losers to look favorably on intellectual winners.

Such teachers are the natural prey of education gurus pushing non-intellectual fads with glittering names. If you got rid of every single counterproductive fad in our schools today, but left the same people in place, this would lead only to a new infusion of different counterproductive fads tomorrow.

And there would still be the same bitter opposition to "teaching to the test," which spoils their self-indulgences.


--------------------------------------------------

Another hard hitting article by Dr. Sowell. He does get to the heart of the matter.

Ishmael

 

[morninggirl5]

I was about to tear that mess apart. But instead, i'll simply copy and paste as well. It's the best arguement against standardized testing i've come across in several months.

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/communications/releases/02/081902.html

Georgia Board of Education determines Stanford 9 test scores for grades 3, 5 and 8 are not usable

ATLANTA 8/19/02 - The State Board of Education announced today that the Georgia Department of Education has determined that the 2001-2002 Stanford 9 test scores in grades 3, 5, and 8 are not usable and can not be adequately corrected in a reasonable amount of time. As a result, new third, fifth and eighth grade scores will not be issued to local public school systems. This decision is based on the recommendation of a panel of testing experts. The Stanford 9 tests students in areas such as reading, math, science and social studies.

"Stanford 9 scores that school systems received earlier this year should not be used by educators and parents in these three grade levels," said Cathy Henson, chair of the State Board of Education. "Although the problems with these tests are of concern, they do not extend to Stanford 9 tests that have been given in other grades and other years."

The State Board of Education recently passed a resolution recommending that norm-referenced tests (NRT), such as the Stanford 9, be made optional, pending legislative approval by the 2003 Georgia General Assembly.

Test score data for Georgia's Criterion Referenced Competency Tests (CRCT) will be released to local school systems in the next two months and have not been affected by this situation. The CRCT is the test that measures Georgia's Quality Core Curriculum and is used for school accountability purposes.

If you want to understand what a standardized test sets out to test, i'll be happy to find one of the threads where i described them. They are not tests that test students on what they are supposed to know in a particular grade and 70% (or whatever you want the cut-off to be) represents a passing score. That is a criterion-referenced test. You won't find many teachers opposing a criterion-referenced test.

 

[Ishmael]

I was about to tear that mess apart. But instead, i'll simply copy and paste as well. It's the best arguement against standardized testing i've come across in several months.

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/communications/releases/02/081902.html




If you want to understand what a standardized test sets out to test, i'll be happy to find one of the threads where i described them. They are not tests that test students on what they are supposed to know in a particular grade and 70% (or whatever you want the cut-off to be) represents a passing score. That is a criterion-referenced test. You won't find many teachers opposing a criterion-referenced test.

That is the 'rub'. "What they're supposed to know."

The column address's the failure of public education in this country. And the failure isn't the students. Never has been the students. The children in this country are not less intelligent than they were 40 years ago. The IQ tests that are administered show that. So, what's the problem?

Ishmael

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I have some thoughts on this issue MG, but I'll hold them. Let me start, though, by saying that I've met a lot of very good teachers and a just few that were not so great.

Our kids aren't doing well in international competition though and there must be a cause or combination of causes. I know that you're a teacher and that you're a thinker and you express yourself well. The only thing I'd hold against you is that elephant thing..but that's another story. What I'm interested in hearing is your thoughts on why American kids are behind most of the rest of the developed world.

I went to private schools so I don't know much about public schools, though I am very concerned about the state of education in our country. What are your thoughts?

 

[Ask For More]

This is only a theory, and it's not a very well informed one but anyway...

Maybe the american education system doesn't set the standards high enough. I don't mean in tests and exams, but in what is actually being taught i.e. the level to which students are educated. For example, when I was doing A-levels in the Uk, I had a few friends who took SAT's since they wanted to go to American colleges, and they were astounded at how easy they were compared the kind of exams that we were sitting over here. Most of my friends aced the SAT's without actually doing any specific studying for them.

However there is a much bigger range of subjects being taught in the US. I wish that kind of range was available to me when I was still in school.

 

[morninggirl5]

I have some thoughts on this issue MG, but I'll hold them. Let me start, though, by saying that I've met a lot of very good teachers and a just few that were not so great.

Our kids aren't doing well in international competition though and there must be a cause or combination of causes. I know that you're a teacher and that you're a thinker and you express yourself well. The only thing I'd hold against you is that elephant thing..but that's another story. What I'm interested in hearing is your thoughts on why American kids are behind most of the rest of the developed world.

I went to private schools so I don't know much about public schools, though I am very concerned about the state of education in our country. What are your thoughts?

There are several reasons usually trotted out for why American kids don't score as high on the tests that are used for those multinational comparisons. In many respects, i think they're comparing apples and oranges. While we focus on education of all students in the public educaiton system here, that is certainly not the case in other countries.

I don't want to sound like a politician here, but i think the real issue is what can be done to improve education for all students.

If i had the power, i'd extend the school day and the school year. In 6.5 or 7 hours each day, teachers are expected to teach Reading, Writing, Spelling, Math, Science, Social Studies, Health, Music, Art, Drug Awareness, Character Education, Computer Skills, and basic Life Skills.

My second move would be to drastically reduce class sizes. I'm *extremely* lucky to teach in a school with a federal class size reduction grant. I had 13 students all year last year and have 14 now. Seven days into a new school year, i have completed all my beginning of the year assessments, and i already know many of the strengths and weaknesses of my students. If i were in a typical classroom with 25-30 students, i'd probably still be learning their names, how they get home, and teaching them the routines of the classroom.

Third, i'd have a licensed Social Worker on staff at every school. Teachers have become counselors, therapists, and substitute parents.

Fourth, i'd remove 90% of the paperwork and time required to get alternative services for a student with special needs. Kindergarten teachers know that a student with special needs is going to be lost in the regular ed program for the full year. The process of getting special education services for a child takes a minimum of at least 1 1/2 years. By the time the special services are introduced, the student has already developed habits and beliefs that lead to further failure.

Finally, i'd eliminate the use of preferred vendors for educational supplies and equipment. It's a big business and like the military that pays thousands of dollars for toilet seats, schools pay two to three times as much as they should for many materials. I have 6 pocket charts and 4 pocket chart stands in my classroom. One chart and one stand are the schools and cost the school $100 through the preferred vendor. The other 5 charts and 3 stands cost me a total of $80.

Oh, yes, i didn't mention higher pay for teachers. Obviously, attracting more of the brightest students to the education field would be much more likely if teachers were truly seen as professionals and paid as such. I'd settle for full reimbursement of what i spend on my classroom each year. Last year, i spent over $2000 of my money on books and materials for my classroom.


That brings me to school media centers. Books, books, and more books. It is a complete and total shame that teachers come to my room to request a particular book before they go to our media center. Technology is wonderful, but a complete, up-to-date media center is absolutely necessary for every school.

I'm going to stop now before i think of something else.

 

[Ishmael]

Well, I guess "more money" was to be expected.

Those districts that have the highest dollar per child education expense (New York, Baltimore, Wash DC (approx. $10,000/per year/perchild)) have the worst results with regard to percentage graduated and SAT scores. Small western districts (approx. $4,000/per year/per child) continuously turn in the higher numbers. (Private schools and home schoolers are consistently outperforming public school educated children.)

Teacher pay is NOT the answer. There is no reason to believe that a person NOT doing the job now, will do a better job if given more money. That is a red herring argument.

The paper work I agree on.

Longer hours and more days aren't the answer. This has been tried long enough now that the results are in. No improvement.

There should be a reduction of ciriculum. No more 'feel good' course's. Get back to the basics, reading and math in paticular.

Ishmael

 

[Weird Harold]

Teacher pay is NOT the answer. There is no reason to believe that a person NOT doing the job now, will do a better job if given more money. That is a red herring argument.

Pardon my French, but -- BULLSHIT!

Higher pay for teachers may not be a panacea but it is a badly needed steop in the process of fixing education.

I personally know four people who have given up teaching because they can't afford to do a job they love and are good enough to compete outside the teaching profession.

Current teacher pay levels keep two kind of teachers:

Those who would teach for free because teaching is all that matters to them.

Those who can't compete in any other field because they're illiterate and incompetent.

Education is the foundation of our society and economy and teachers need to get the pay and respect appropriate to professionals. Maybe then we can get and keep teachers who can teach.

 

[kotori]

hey, ish!

just curious, are you a teacher? or have you ever been one?

 

[sch00lteacher]

Right on Weird Harold.

Why don't people get on here and trash their doctor, dentist, or lawyer? Why are teachers fair game? Is it because we are not professionals?

Today about ten a.m. walk into your doctor's office and demand to speak to him/her right now. See how far that gets you. You can treat teachers like that. Why? The pay. People do not respect people who make what they make.

Sure we don't do anything, it is a shame. We sit and drink coffee and assign seat work. Some teachers do. They gave up. They got tired of being second guessed by administrators, state officials, and parents.

Parents don't tell the dentist how to fix teeth. Why do they feel so 'able' to tell me how to do my job? Do they have a clue? No. But that doesn't matter. Any idiot can teach! That is almost a true statement if you just want the test taught. I could train any one of you to teach to the test. Just like I trained my dog to shit outside instead of in the house.

It must be a new school year, cause here we go again...

 

[Ishmael]

Pardon my French, but -- BULLSHIT!

Higher pay for teachers may not be a panacea but it is a badly needed steop in the process of fixing education.

I personally know four people who have given up teaching because they can't afford to do a job they love and are good enough to compete outside the teaching profession.

Current teacher pay levels keep two kind of teachers:

Those who would teach for free because teaching is all that matters to them.

Those who can't compete in any other field because they're illiterate and incompetent.

Education is the foundation of our society and economy and teachers need to get the pay and respect appropriate to professionals. Maybe then we can get and keep teachers who can teach.

First of all, teachers are paid what the market will bear. No more, no less. If there were a shortage, the pay would go up. Converesly, if there is a surplus, the pay goes down. Economics 101.

Two, as long as tenure is the criteria for pay raises, those that can't cut it in the real world will remain and grow in salary and position of responsibility. Inorder for your paradigm to work, the unions have to go. No reasonable employer should be expected to pay more for the same level of failure.

I can envision a program whereby teacher's pay can be raised over a period of time. But that would require the 'weeding' out of those less qualified. That means the raising of the standards for those that are beginning their carreer in teaching and the 'rifting' of those that are not cutting the mustard. This will naturally reduce the number of qualified aspirants, and coincidently, raise their worth to the community and the system.

Under the current requirements the introduction of more teachers into the system. (The natural consequence of longer hours, smaller classes, etc. will have the effect of further diluting the available pool thereby reducing the worth of those in the pool.) Again, this is economics 101 stuff.

In New York City, over 50% of those that enter high school at the 9th grade level will either fail, or drop out, before graduation. For these results the school system should be rewarded with more money? Why?

Why do private schools, who pay less and spend less, consistently do better than public schools? Why do home schoolers out perform publically schooled children in all relevant categories?

The article address's one of the issues. That being that the colleges have so reduced their standards with regard to curricula in their educational major programs that only the least qualified graduate, or more precisely, the aggregate graduates are less qualified each year. As long as this is occuring the public will get exactly what it is paying for, and that isn't much right now.

Ishmael

 

[Mellon Collie]

Thomas Sowell

August 21, 2002

'Teaching to the test': Part II

In other words, the students should not simply be taught the ready-made rules of mathematics or science but discover them for themselves. The fact that this approach has failed, time and again, to produce students who can hold their own in international tests with students from other countries only turns the American education establishment against tests.

There should be a reduction of ciriculum. No more 'feel good' course's. Get back to the basics, reading and math in paticular.

I was taught math in a similar way. My math was taught in units, each unit had it's on central problem which was massive and had many layers to it. For instance, one problem I remember doing was called High Dive. It featured a 50 foot Ferris Wheel on a 15 foot platform that was moving at X speed (I don't remember that part) there was also a cart (2 feet high and moving at a certain speed) underneath it filled with water. There were two men on a seat of the Ferris Wheel, one holding and the other hanging by his feet. We had to figure out at which instant the man should be dropped so that he would land safely in the water in the moving cart bellow. And everything had to be taken into account from wind resistance & gravity to the fact that a man falling from a circular object which was moving would not fall in a straight line.

This was far from a feel good course. The students had to tackle the problem piece by piece and figure it out with minimal assistance from the teacher (who happened to be one of the best damn math teachers in the city. She has and continues to win many, many awards, one with a recommendation I wrote for her in my senior year), all we had were the other students in our group and a textbook which helped us break the problem down. It was hard because we were the only class learning this way and if we took our word problems to the regular math students they would give us perplexed looks. After a week or two of torture the instructor would give us the correct solution and explain how the problem would be properly solved. She cultivated our minds and taught us how to think for ourselves, not as the flock of sheep the school district would rather send out into the work force.

Learning math this way was the best thing that ever happened to all of us. It taught us to use the knowledge we already possessed and how to find and the learn the skills we needed to find the solution on our own. We became innovative and creative, it got to the point where we were taking aspects of all the other subjects we were learning in school to aid us. We didn't need drills to hound mathematical equations and rules in our minds, we found our own logical way to solve things. The logical way that would not be forgotten and would come into play under the pressure of a major (standardized) test.

Aside from the mathematical benefits there were also social. The members of the class never changed and after four years of being together and working as a group we were a family. I hate when people bash alternative methods of teaching math because it can be superior. My class ranked higher than traditional math courses on both the reading and writing portions of standardized tests (which does speak volumes, I went to an academic high school, you had to be accepted) and to this day I use the skills it taught me.

 

[Ishmael]

Right on Weird Harold.

Why don't people get on here and trash their doctor, dentist, or lawyer? Why are teachers fair game? Is it because we are not professionals?

Today about ten a.m. walk into your doctor's office and demand to speak to him/her right now. See how far that gets you. You can treat teachers like that. Why? The pay. People do not respect people who make what they make.

Sure we don't do anything, it is a shame. We sit and drink coffee and assign seat work. Some teachers do. They gave up. They got tired of being second guessed by administrators, state officials, and parents.

Parents don't tell the dentist how to fix teeth. Why do they feel so 'able' to tell me how to do my job? Do they have a clue? No. But that doesn't matter. Any idiot can teach! That is almost a true statement if you just want the test taught. I could train any one of you to teach to the test. Just like I trained my dog to shit outside instead of in the house.

It must be a new school year, cause here we go again...

Not a truly equivalent issue, is it?

I can choose my doctor, lawyer, dentist. I make the decision on the quality or quantity of his/her effort and I can negotiate the payment. Not so with the school system. It is also disengenious to compare teachers to doctor's, lawyers, and such in that those professionals are in an open market business and the 'failures' are weeded out very quickly. The standards are far higher in those professions as well.

In answer to anothers question, yes, I have taught, albeit not in the public school system. So in that respect the answer is no.

Yes, parents are part of the problem. I recognize that as well. However, there is little that the public schools can do about that right now. As long as some parents want to use the public school system as a 'dumping ground' for their children and the system makes no provision otherwise, this will continue to occur.

Ishmael

 

[sch00lteacher]

You have proven my point. Thank you.

 

[Ishmael]

I was taught math in a similar way. My math was taught in units, each unit had it's on central problem which was massive and had many layers to it. For instance, one problem I remember doing was called High Dive. It featured a 50 foot Ferris Wheel on a 15 foot platform that was moving at X speed

<snip>

My class ranked higher than traditional math courses on both the reading and writing portions of standardized tests (which does speak volumes, I went to an academic high school, you had to be accepted) and to this day I use the skills it taught me.

I've said nothing about alternative methods. And I certainly haven't painted ALL teachers with the same brush.

There are excellent teachers out there that should be rewarded. Unfortunately the system GENERALLY makes no provision for this. That too should change. But as long as the unions stand by the tenure rule, it won't.

Like all other things in life, the general decline of an institution is not necessarily a reflection of the capabilities of all members of that institution. There are most certainly many superb teachers, as well as programs, out there. It is also a fact that they are generally the exception, not the rule.

The teaching of math, reading, etc. as core subjects does not restrict the method that is used to convey the subject. When I taught I worked to a lesson plan. However, I had at least three different methods of approaching the same subject and on occasion I would have to use all three to convey the ideda to all of the class members. The reason was simple, not all people learn in the same manner. There were some that when I explained the subject one way would look at me with blank stares, but when the same material was explained in a different context you could see the light of understanding bloom in their eyes. Quite gratifying really. But inorder for that to happen, I had to understand the subject thoroughly enough that I could use those alternate methods. And fortunately I had the flexibility within my environment to do so.

All of that being said. This is NOT about the indictment of any one individual. It is about the general state of education in this country. The arguments that are based on one or two anecdotal stories of individual excellence does not address the general state.

Ishmael

 

[kotori]

Not a truly equivalent issue, is it?

I can choose my doctor, lawyer, dentist. I make the decision on the quality or quantity of his/her effort and I can negotiate the payment.

Wow, that's quite an insurance plan you've got if they let you negotiate the rates.

In answer to anothers question, yes, I have taught, albeit not in the public school system. So in that respect the answer is no.

So private high school. Math?

edit: sorry, didn't see your post above while typing my question.

 

[Ishmael]

You have proven my point. Thank you.

I can see where I've neither proven nor disproven any point.

I don't have to be a teacher in the public schools to see the results. Just as I don't have to be a plumber to see that the toilet is plugged up.

Ishmael

 

[Weird Harold]

First of all, teachers are paid what the market will bear. No more, no less. If there were a shortage, the pay would go up. Converesly, if there is a surplus, the pay goes down. Economics 101.

Your economics theory would work IF teacher's salaries were controlled by market forces -- They're not.

Teacher's salaries are ultimately controlled by the voters' willingness to vote for school budgets and the school district's ability to juggle inadequate budgets to cover teacher salaries and other costs.

What other profession pays slightly more than minimum wage and requires employees to pay for constant "continuing education" out of their own pockets the keep their jobs?

There does ned to be "teacher accountability" of some sort to weed out the bad teachers but until pay is such that it attracts qualified replacements for rejects, there isn't any practical way to enforce accountability except in very extreme cases of incompetence.

The issue of teacher pay is only one of the problems that need to be fixed. it IS however, a valid issue and anything BUT a red herring.

Why do private schools, who pay less and spend less, consistently do better than public schools? Why do home schoolers out perform publically schooled children in all relevant categories?

Because they don't have to take every student and can skim many of the best students away from public schools.

Because, by their very nature, they have parents who are involved in their children's education.

Because they can pay their teachers more by not having to pay for school police and other added costs that public schools incur.

Because they can tailor their curriculims for a narrower range of student needs and interests.

Because they're not expected to compete in athletics and required to offer every sport for every sex.

Because they can and do pay for able administrators who are trained to manage money instead of promoting teachers out of the classroom into administrative jobs.


None of the differences in results between private and public schools is soley a factor of teachers' pay.

 

[Weird Harold]

oops -- it's edit not quote, dummy.

 

[riff]

I think I can see both sides. On one hand, we want ALL of our students to have some basic skills so these behemoth standardized tests are, in a way, useful.

My classes prepare students for industry-based certification. My curriculum is based on a major proprietary platform and the company makes the tests. I include my own assignments, labs, and quizzes- but in the end, my hope for my students is that should they decide to take the test, they will pass it.

You can lead a man to the university, but you cannot make him think. As a teacher, I provide my students with the environment, tools, information, guidance, and instruction (and sometimes I have to try to motivate them) they need to learn. I try to cultivate in them a love of learning.

Different people learn different ways. I try as much as I can to accomodate different learning styles- but I can only do so much without compromising the integrity of the classroom. Sometimes I bend over backward for someone whom I see struggling- but I am not a waiter. There does come a point where I have to say in assessment- UNSATISFACTORY.

I have heard people say that "If nothing is learned, then nothing has been taught."

That's total bullshit. My students learn far more than I ever "teach." In fact, I probably learn more than a lot of my students because I don't spoonfeed them. I set up problems, pose questions, and then point towards resources (first and foremost- themselves). You wouldn't believe how good this method works. More often than not, how the solution is arrived at is more important than what the solution is. I learn a lot right along with them.

But, there is that test.... and I don't make up the questions.

 

[Mellon Collie]

All of that being said. This is NOT about the indictment of any one individual. It is about the general state of education in this country. The arguments that are based on one or two anecdotal stories of individual excellence does not address the general state.

Ishmael

I am not talking about an individual, the entire class excelled. The only class learning this way. You know what? The basics and drilling methods have also been tried, and they also failed. American kids doing poorly on a worldwide scale is not a new thing. If my class did so well with alternative math, why couldn't others? That was the point I was trying to convey, next time I know to just spell it out without nondescript words.

Teachers get so much shit from so many people. How can you do what you love with so much going against you? And I'm so sick of the quality of the teacher being questioned because someone's kid is a moron. The public schools can not be expected to preform as well as others, they are forced to take on every student. Tenure is a good idea, if a teacher can last that long without giving up - more power to them. Pay them.

Almost all of the most incredible people I've met in my life have been my teachers, and guess what I want to be when I grow up? Teachers perform one of if not thee most noble and necessary professions and yet they are treated terribly, this thread in and of itself proves that point.

 

[Ishmael]

Your economics theory would work IF teacher's salaries were controlled by market forces -- They're not.

Teacher's salaries are ultimately controlled by the voters' willingness to vote for school budgets and the school district's ability to juggle inadequate budgets to cover teacher salaries and other costs.

What other profession pays slightly more than minimum wage and requires employees to pay for constant "continuing education" out of their own pockets the keep their jobs?

There does ned to be "teacher accountability" of some sort to weed out the bad teachers but until pay is such that it attracts qualified replacements for rejects, there isn't any practical way to enforce accountability except in very extreme cases of incompetence.

The issue of teacher pay is only one of the problems that need to be fixed. it IS however, a valid issue and anything BUT a red herring.

I'll agree that the pay issue is real. However, I will not agree that it is the most important issue as many have promulgated. The placing of THAT issue to the forefront is what I am refering to as a 'red herring'.

Because they don't have to take every student and can skim many of the best students away from public schools.

Because, by their very nature, they have parents who are involved in their children's education.

Because they can pay their teachers more by not having to pay for school police and other added costs that public schools incur.

Because they can tailor their curriculims for a narrower range of student needs and interests.

Because they're not expected to compete in athletics and required to offer every sport for every sex.

Because they can and do pay for able administrators who are trained to manage money instead of promoting teachers out of the classroom into administrative jobs.


None of the differences in results between private and public schools is soley a factor of teachers' pay.

All valid points. And that begs one to ask the question why all of these superflous requirements are there to begin with?

Part of it is the parents. We all want something for nothing. But the other part is the requirments imposed by the Federal government inorder for the schools to recieve the 'matching funds' monies, no matter what the real cost to the student, and the decision on the part of the administrators to 'sell themselves out' for this same money.

The issues are complex and by no means the fault of the individual teachers. It is systemic in nature, but change has to start somewhere.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

I am not talking about an individual, the entire class excelled. The only class learning this way. You know what? The basics and drilling methods have also been tried, and they also failed. American kids doing poorly on a worldwide scale is not a new thing. If my class did so well with alternative math, why couldn't others? That was the point I was trying to convey, next time I know to just spell it out without nondescript words.

Teachers get so much shit from so many people. How can you do what you love with so much going against you? And I'm so sick of the quality of the teacher being questioned because someone's kid is a moron. The public schools can not be expected to preform as well as others, they are forced to take on every student. Tenure is a good idea, if a teacher can last that long without giving up - more power to them. Pay them.

Almost all of the most incredible people I've met in my life have been my teachers, and guess what I want to be when I grow up? Teachers perform one of if not thee most noble and necessary professions and yet they are treated terribly, this thread in and of itself proves that point.

MC, the difference was the teacher. Not the class. It was the individual teachers effort.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

I think I can see both sides. On one hand, we want ALL of our students to have some basic skills so these behemoth standardized tests are, in a way, useful.

My classes prepare students for industry-based certification. My curriculum is based on a major proprietary platform and the company makes the tests. I include my own assignments, labs, and quizzes- but in the end, my hope for my students is that should they decide to take the test, they will pass it.

You can lead a man to the university, but you cannot make him think. As a teacher, I provide my students with the environment, tools, information, guidance, and instruction (and sometimes I have to try to motivate them) they need to learn. I try to cultivate in them a love of learning.

Different people learn different ways. I try as much as I can to accomodate different learning styles- but I can only do so much without compromising the integrity of the classroom. Sometimes I bend over backward for someone whom I see struggling- but I am not a waiter. There does come a point where I have to say in assessment- UNSATISFACTORY.

I have heard people say that "If nothing is learned, then nothing has been taught."

That's total bullshit. My students learn far more than I ever "teach." In fact, I probably learn more than a lot of my students because I don't spoonfeed them. I set up problems, pose questions, and then point towards resources (first and foremost- themselves). You wouldn't believe how good this method works. More often than not, how the solution is arrived at is more important than what the solution is. I learn a lot right along with them.

But, there is that test.... and I don't make up the questions.

All valid points. At some point you have to resign yourself to the fact that some students just aren't going to cut it.

Ishmael

 

[Mellon Collie]

Ahem, did you read my post?

With minimal assistance from the teacher? The difference was the way were we taught. We out performed the same teacher's AP classes.