Teachers Packing Heat

[angela146]

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=160898

MADISON, Wis. - A state lawmaker, worried about a recent string of deadly school shootings, suggested arming teachers, principals and other school personnel as a safety measure and a deterrent. ...

In addition to the many other reasons why this is a bad idea... Wisconsin does not allow concealed weapons. So, the teachers and administrators would have to have their weapons in visible holsters.

Can you imagine sitting in class and seeing your teacher with a hand gun strapped to his belt?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I like it. It tickles my natural sense of anarchy.

 

[fieryjen]

I don't think I could ever be comfortable having that on me while teaching. Or having it on me, period. I don't do firearms.

 

[Guest]

Teenagers...hormones...teachers with guns.

Nothing good can come of this.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I think you have to be Irish and have family in the IRA to really appreciate this.

However, I doubt it will become the norm.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Of course everyone knows that shootings skyrocket and the streets turn into the wild west whenever a state liberalizes its concealed carry laws to allow law abiding citizens who have passed background checks and undergone firearms and legal self defense training to carry concealed weapons.

Oh, wait a minute - shootings either stay the same or go down, the streets do not turn into the wild west, and every fender bender on the highways does not become a bloody shootout.

Never mind.



(OK, enough snarkiness, here's my sincere opinion: The record shows that citizens can be trusted far more than is credited before the fact in such matters, and the easy-to-imagine nightmares do not come true. I suspect that this would be the case with armed teachers as well, notwithstanding the fact that the potential nightmares are even more easy to imagine, as some have already done here.)

 

[R. Richard]

I would be against arming teachers. However, let me explain.

I used to carry a concealed .357 to school most days when I went to school. Most of the hard boys around school knew I was packing. As a result, lots of potential trouble was averted. However, the ambiance was possibly due to my almost legendary prowess with said .357.

If you strap a sidearm on some idiot who has no idea how to use the weapon, you are creating a dangerous situation. [No, a one day firearms safety course is NOT going to get the job done.] However, the average teacher, IMNTHO, would balk at the dark alley training course that I used to gain proficiency.

 

[3113]

Edited. Never mind.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

It appears the argument is mute. The teachers union says they won't do it.

In a way, at least on the surface, I like the idea. But thinking deeper and rereading the story, the idea is to arm teachers to protect the kids from the kind of interloper that murdered the Amish kids in Pennsylvania.

The problem I see is two fold. First, that is not an every day occurance. The number of schools that get shot up are, what, 1 to 3 per year?

But this guy is talking about arming hundreds of thousands of teachers. My second thought is about inner city kids who are already carrying guns to school. How soon would there the a teacher/student shoot out?

The mind set is guns are meant to be used. Amatures will do more harm than good. Really bad idea.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I do own guns, and I am neither anti-gun, nor am I pro-gun.

The whole idea of arming teachers is completely assinine, and is a knee-jerk reaction by some idiotic politician with too much time on his hands, either that or he is seeking some quick publicity.

I can see it all now....2nd Grade Arithmetic...Now class, my Colt has 9 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber. I cap a couple of rounds into the back wall of the classroom. How many do I have left?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I do own guns, and I am neither anti-gun, nor am I pro-gun.

The whole idea of arming teachers is completely assinine, and is a knee-jerk reaction by some idiotic politician with too much time on his hands, either that or he is seeking some quick publicity.

I can see it all now....2nd Grade Arithmetic...Now class, my Colt has 9 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber. I cap a couple of rounds into the back wall of the classroom. How many do I have left?

LOL - Um, eight? Or do I count the one in the chamber?

I agree with your assessment of the motivations behind the proposal - it's pure position taking and not serious. That said, if a teacher meets a reasonable standard of competence in the relevent fields (legal knowledge and firearms proficiency, with a huge emphasis on safety and a healthy dose of psychology), he or she should have the option to pack heat if that is his or her choice. This has nothing to do with the sad incident this week - that's just another isolated and meaningless tragedy - but with the general rationale for allowing qualified civilans to carry concealed weapons: It is shown to increase, not decrease public safety, or at the very worst have no effect at all.

 

[angela146]

Oops!

I missed the following line from the original article:

Lasee said he planned to introduce legislation that would allow school personnel to carry concealed weapons.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

LOL - Um, eight? Or do I count the one in the chamber?

I agree with your assessment of the motivations behind the proposal - it's pure position taking and not serious. That said, if a teacher meets a reasonable standard of competence in the relevent fields (legal knowledge and firearms proficiency, with a huge emphasis on safety and a healthy dose of psychology), he or she should have the option to pack heat if that is his or her choice. This has nothing to do with the sad incident this week - that's just another isolated and meaningless tragedy - but with the general rationale for allowing qualified civilans to carry concealed weapons: It is shown to increase, not decrease public safety, or at the very worst have no effect at all.

I personally wouldn't want my child in a classroom with a teacher that was armed.

Sorry Susie, you can't hug Mrs. Abercrombie like that, her .38 might go off in her girdle...

 

[elsol]

My kid doesn't have a gun; the teachers don't get guns.

Next social issue...

 

[S-Des]

The West Wing had a poignant episode about a church shooting where a bystander killed the perpetrator, but accidentaly killed a child in the process. This is such a ciclical argument. Every time an 80 year-old uses a gun to stop a prowler, it's wall to wall coverage with gun-rights advocates saying this is proof that everyone should be armed. Every time a child accidentaly shoots himself or a sibling with the gun that Mom or Dad left lying around the house, people opposed to guns say this proves guns should be outlawed.

There are so few school shootings, I can't imagine all the potential accidents or teachers who might pull their weapon if they felt threatened (or were just bat-shit crazy). Has anyone seen the video of the cop demonstrating handgun safety in a class,then shooting himself in the leg?

Darkside is right, this is just asinine. When a trained police officer shoots a perp in the commission of a felony (on video) there are investigations and protests. What would happen when a teacher shot a 14 year-old kid with no video?

 

[elsol]

The West Wing had a poignant episode about a church shooting where a bystander killed the perpetrator, but accidentaly killed a child in the process. This is such a ciclical argument. Every time an 80 year-old uses a gun to stop a prowler, it's wall to wall coverage with gun-rights advocates saying this is proof that everyone should be armed. Every time a child accidentaly shoots himself or a sibling with the gun that Mom or Dad left lying around the house, people opposed to guns say this proves guns should be outlawed.

There are so few school shootings, I can't imagine all the potential accidents or teachers who might pull their weapon if they felt threatened (or were just bat-shit crazy). Has anyone seen the video of the cop demonstrating handgun safety in a class,then shooting himself in the leg?

Darkside is right, this is just asinine. When a trained police officer shoots a perp in the commission of a felony (on video) there are investigations and protests. What would happen when a teacher shot a 14 year-old kid with no video?

14?

I watched a principal of school stand a kid up and slap his face while in the 4th grade. So realistically, unreasonable stupidity from a teacher/administrator could start pre-high school.

Joy to the insanity of a teacher shooting an 8-year old.

 

[S-Des]

14?

I watched a principal of school stand a kid up and slap his face while in the 4th grade. So realistically, unreasonable stupidity from a teacher/administrator could start pre-high school.

Joy to the insanity of a teacher shooting an 8-year old.

I guess I was trying to be fair. I was in trouble once in 7th or 8th grade for talking in class (oh the horrors). One of my teachers happened to be in the office when we were offered the choice between push-ups or swats with a paddle. I chose push-ups (to this day, anyone who lays a hand on me will find out just how short my fuse can be). My teacher, a 6'4 macho dude said, "I wish they'd let me use the paddle...I'd put you right through the wall."

Yeah, I definitely want teachers armed...

 

[ishtat]

self loading comment

I would be against arming teachers. However, let me explain.

I used to carry a concealed .357 to school most days when I went to school. Most of the hard boys around school knew I was packing. As a result, lots of potential trouble was averted. However, the ambiance was possibly due to my almost legendary prowess with said .357.

If you strap a sidearm on some idiot .

???????

 

[Guest]

Overheard two longterm teachers talking about this yesterday.

"If I'd been carrying a gun all these years, I'd have used it by now."

 

[R. Richard]

???????

The use of a firearm is not a simple task. Properly used, you do not hold a pistol in your hand, it must be a part of your hand. The act of drawing and firing the pistol must be like moving your hand, stabilizing your hand in the direction and at the angle you desire and then sqeezing the trigger to put the bullet exactly where you want it. The best method I have ever found to prefect the art is to be "Whi' Boy" in South Central. You eaither learn quickly and well, or you die.

 

[R. Richard]

The West Wing had a poignant episode about a church shooting where a bystander killed the perpetrator, but accidentaly killed a child in the process. This is such a ciclical argument. Every time an 80 year-old uses a gun to stop a prowler, it's wall to wall coverage with gun-rights advocates saying this is proof that everyone should be armed. Every time a child accidentaly shoots himself or a sibling with the gun that Mom or Dad left lying around the house, people opposed to guns say this proves guns should be outlawed.

In the Western US area where I live, almost everyone has a gun and knows how to use it. [It is actually legal to carry a loaded handgun around, as long as it is in plain sight, althought the scumbags will hassle anyone who tries it out of season.] There are almost zero night residential burglaries. The night residential burglar gets a trial by homeowner/renter and the jury consists of just Smith&Wesson. [On the other hand, car break-ins are an epidemic.]

A "child" shooting himself or a playmate includes a very large number of gangbangers shooting hated rivals. The gangs use mainly 15-year-olds to do the shootings, as the punishment is nothing or almost nothing. The 15-year-old becomes a "cold killer" in the 'hood. [If you wonder how I know, I grew up in the 'hood and I HEARD about the situation. I myself never did evil things like that, especially I never did evil things where the statue of limitations has not yet run out.]

 

[Wildcard Ky]

I don't know about teachers, but I don't think it'd be such a bad idea to have at least one completely trained and certified person in a school with access to a gun.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the gun being kept locked in a safe rather than carried by a person.

I can see where that could be a good thing.

 

[SeaCat]

You know, this whole thing is kind of frightening to me.

No not just Teachers packing, (I know too many teachers who I wouldn't trust to carry books much less a firearm.) I'm talking about many of the people who are liscensed to carry right now. Most of them have a hard tim just cleaning their weapon. When they do shoot it would be safer to be their target. Most people do not care enough to go through the training, or work at maintaining the skills needed to be accurate. We recently had a shoot out between a cop and a carjacker nearby. The range was maybe 20 feet. The cop fired six times hitting the carjacker four times. This is considered to be outstanding shooting. What happened to the other two rounds? (There was a case several years ago in New York City where a cop dumped 14 rounds at a perp. The range was 10 feet. He missed 14 times.)

No I am not against concealed carry, nor am I against firearms ownership. I am all for the proper training of those who would carry though. Not enough training is put in for gaining the proper skills, or the maintaining of them.

To give you an idea of the effort needed to maintain the skills needed. I have carried for more years than I haven't. I was trained by the government. I competed for years in ICPC. I still fire at least 100 rounds a week. I push myself at the range. I arrange to have as much distraction as possible while I'm firing. (This includes others firing, low light situations, obscured targets, smoke, and any other distractions the range master and myself can come up with.) As an example a normal Police Officer qualifies once a year, on a quiet and controlled range.

If people were trained to use their weapons, trained to use them and maintained their training then I wuld have absolutely no problem with anyone carrying. This includes teachers or even pilots. Unfortunately most people can't be bothered to maintain their training and or skills.

Cat

 

[Wildcard Ky]

We have concealed carry in Ky. You must go through mandatory training and marksmanship which must be passed before the concealed carry permit is issued.
The instructors are certified by the state. If you don't pass the course, you don't get the permit.

I think it's a good way to handle it.

 

[rgraham666]

We have concealed carry in Ky. You must go through mandatory training and marksmanship which must be passed before the concealed carry permit is issued.
The instructors are certified by the state. If you don't pass the course, you don't get the permit.

I think it's a good way to handle it.

I quite agree.

My problem with guns isn't with the guns. They're just tools and can only do what the operator makes them do. So I'm in favour of measures that keep a person too unstable or otherwise incapable from handling a firearm.

I think that a 'Hogan's Alley' test would be a good idea as well. Not only should we be sure that the person can hit the target, we should be sure they can hit the right target.

I remember hearing on the news when I believe it was Maryland passed a concealed carry law. My first thought was, "I could have a lot of fun with a string of firecrackers there, couldn't I?"