Taxation without representation

[KillerMuffin]

What do you think? And why?

Currently the residents of Washington DC have no representation in Congress, yet they have to pay federal taxes.

They are asking Congress to support legislation that would either give them representation or exempt them from federal taxes. The preference is representation.

Some schools of thought, particularly the founder type people, believed that the seat of government should not take part in that government to prevent conflicts of interest, grafting, etcetera. Or so I understand.

Link: http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=politicsnews&StoryID=1003772

 

[Azwed]

Other countries that have a similar capital set up, a city built for the sole purpose of being the capital, as we do give the capital representation. Brazil is the best example of this that I can think of off the top of my head.

Another thing to consider is how many of the powerful people actually live in DC??? I mean sure most of the upper government people live in DC but the real powerful people live in VA or MD. The real powerful ones being the lawyers, lobbyists and news people.

 

[Sillyman]

Which is in intresting proposition, given that were D.C allowed representation, they would get representation on everything, even stuff that didn't apply to them that directly.

 

[sunstruck]

Wow. I never even thought about this. Have to get my head around some catch 22s.

 

[Ishmael]

Forget it. The District of Columbia was established by the Constitution so that the people of the nation could see exactly how well their elected representatives could manage a piece of this earth 10 miles by 10 miles in size.

It is a living example of just exactly how well your, and my, congressmen and women can manage a small piece of territory.

It was designed in such a way that congress could experiment with policy and law before having to burden the rest of the country with said policy and law.

How do like what you see so far???

Ishmael

 

[Tyrael]

Hmmm, shows how little I know about DC.....

 

[sunstruck]

Forget it. The District of Columbia was established by the Constitution so that the people of the nation could see exactly how well their elected representatives could manage a piece of this earth 10 miles by 10 miles in size.

It is a living example of just exactly how well your, and my, congressmen and women can manage a small piece of territory.

It was designed in such a way that congress could experiment with policy and law before having to burden the rest of the country with said policy and law.

How do like what you see so far???

Ishmael

Well, in the 2 and a hlf years I lived there I was mugged twice, and accociated through friends with a murder. I'm thinking things could be better.

But think about it, if you were living there, as a resident, how would you feel about paying taxes and not being able to make any choices about where that money was going?

Then again, given the reps, they would only be used (and most likely bought by) politicians looking to push through their own agendas. Which actually is the way things work everywhere else so......

 

[Ishmael]

Well, in the 2 and a hlf years I lived there I was mugged twice, and accociated through friends with a murder. I'm thinking things could be better.

But think about it, if you were living there, as a resident, how would you feel about paying taxes and not being able to make any choices about where that money was going?

Then again, given the reps, they would only be used (and most likely bought by) politicians looking to push through their own agendas. Which actually is the way things work everywhere else so......

The rules were set in the Constitution. Don't like them? Move.

Personally, I prefered living in Silver Spring, or Beltsville, or any where but the district. Old Town Alexandria would be nice too.

Ishmael

 

[The Gimp]

I'm no constitutional expert but I'm assuming that the framers had a specific reason for not making DC a state. Even if the reason is outdated the status of DC residents will never change. Republicans would never willing give representation to a group of die hard Democats and hell will literally freeze over before the federal government would stop collecting taxes on DC residents.

 

[Ishmael]

I'm no constitutional expert but I'm assuming that the framers had a specific reason for not making DC a state. Even if the reason is outdated the status of DC residents will never change. Republicans would never willing give representation to a group of die hard Democats and hell will literally freeze over before the federal government would stop collecting taxes on DC residents.

You seem to be intelligent. Read the constitution, read the "Federalist Papers". They are as valid today as the day they were written.

DC can never be a state or have voting representation in congress without a constitutional ammendment. The states themselves would never ratify such an ammendment. It has little to do with Republican or Democrat.

Ishmael

 

[sunstruck]

The rules were set in the Constitution. Don't like them? Move.

Personally, I prefered living in Silver Spring, or Beltsville, or any where but the district. Old Town Alexandria would be nice too.

Ishmael

Actually I loved living in Georgetown, and I wasn't complaining. Or lecturing. Just pontificating.

Calm down. Have some tea.

 

[Ishmael]

Actually I loved living in Georgetown, and I wasn't complaining. Or lecturing. Just pontificating.

Calm down. Have some tea.

I'm not even mildly excited.

Just irritated that some people choose to make statements about something of which they haven't even read about.

Imagine, American citizens that haven't read the constitution.

Ishmael

 

[sunstruck]

I'm not even mildly excited.

Just irritated that some people choose to make statements about something of which they haven't even read about.

Imagine, American citizens that haven't read the constitution.

Ishmael

Why would you assume I haven't read the constitution? I never commented on the laws, I was simply wondering what would happen if things were changed.

It happens you know. They're called ammendments.

 

[Ishmael]

Why would you assume I haven't read the constitution? I never commented on the laws, I was simply wondering what would happen if things were changed.

It happens you know. They're called ammendments.

I didn't assume. I posed a question. There are other posters here.

Yep, and that ammendment will fail.

Ishmael

 

[sunstruck]

I didn't assume. I posed a question. There are other posters here.

Yep, and that ammendment will fail.

Ishmael

I'm sorry, at what point exactly were you endowed with irefutable forsight?

Is there any room in yourhead for possibilities? They're so much more interesting than absolutes.

 

[Guru]

 

[JazzManJim]

Washington, DC has one of the more unusual governmental arrangements I've yet to see anywhere. I live not too far from this city, and have quite a few friends who live there, a couple of whom are big-time statehood supporters.

Some years ago, DC was granted a limited self-rule, whereby they could elect a mayor and a city council. The decisions for the city would be, for the most part, made by those elected representatives. The city's budget would be determined by the DC oversight committee. The Federal Government does, in some part, fund the city as do the local taxes collected by the city government.

Unfortunately, through the regime of one particular Mayor, the DC government was a hotbed of nepotism, corruption, fraud, and some of the most incredible incompetence I've ever seen. The current mayor, Tony Williams, was elected mostly by dint of his being a financial whiz who helped the city dig out of some very serious troubles a couple of years ago. At that point, their bond rating was lower than whale poo and at least four governmental organizations were either in full receivership, or heading there quickly. Presently, as I recall, only one department is in receivership, and it's scheduled to come out soon. That's not to say that DC is out of trouble - far from it. At least three departments which provide city services are still being closely monitored by the courts and another screw-up on their part could land them right back in receivership.

Those folks living in DC may vote on elections just like everyone else can. They do not have, as KM said, a voting Representative nor Senator. They do have a non-voting Representative - Elanor Holmes-Norton and have, for the past few years been represented by "shadow Senator" Jesse Jackson, though that role has always been more than a little hinky and fraught with, well, poo.

My own assessment of DC is that the city has proven pretty much incapable of running itself as a city, much less a state. They have more government employees right now, after some hefty cutbacks, than the city of Chicago (which outnumbers them somewhere around 10 or 11-1 or so). They still can't get the potholes filled, their police force is dangerously undermanned and outgunned, their city welfare services are overburdened ot the point of being deadly to those they serve, and they've become a laughing-stock among other cities. Their crime rate is beyond extraordinary (especially their murder rate) despite a law which bans handguns of any sort in the city, for any reason. They have in years past, been jobbed badly by Congress for various reasons, but in the last ten years they've been left mostly to their own devices, and they've failed miserably.

A few years back, Maryland Governot William Donald Schafer floated the idea that Maryland and DC might cut a deal whereby MD would annex DC. The Legislature nearly lynched him on the spot. DC is, governmentally speaking, a den of serpents and it's never going to get anything approaching serious consideration - Constitutional issues notwithstanding - until it proves it can run itself.

 

[Ishmael]

I'm sorry, at what point exactly were you endowed with irefutable forsight?

Is there any room in yourhead for possibilities? They're so much more interesting than absolutes.

Ratification of an ammendment requires 3/4's of the states legislative bodies approval, or a convention convened for just such a purpose.

Only takes 13 states to NOT approve to kill the ammendment. I can name 20 off the top of my head that will never approve such an ammendment.

A generation from now America may be dumbed down to the point that it might pass.

Ishmael

 

[Calamity Jane]

Speaking of taxation without representation... why is it that we can't vote til we're 18, but we pay federal and state taxes as soon as we hold a job? I've been paying taxes since I was 14.

 

[Marxist]

PCG and KM, here's an idea:

Everyone under 18 in America moves to D.C. and we solve both problems. The government couldn't get any worse.

 

[Ishmael]

Speaking of taxation without representation... why is it that we can't vote til we're 18, but we pay federal and state taxes as soon as we hold a job? I've been paying taxes since I was 14.

There ya go PCG. If a child is considered responsible enough to pay taxes, then they should be emancipated. They should be responsible for themselves from birth. No more parental intervention in their lives.

Makes as much sense to me as the DC argument.

Go girl.

Ishmael

 

[Calamity Jane]

There ya go PCG. If a child is considered responsible enough to pay taxes, then they should be emancipated. They should be responsible for themselves from birth. No more parental intervention in their lives.

Makes as much sense to me as the DC argument.

Go girl.

Ishmael

Now Ishmael, don't be a shit. It was just a question. I've worked at least 2 jobs since I was 14, with the exception of the past 2 years when I've been staying home and running the paperwork part of my husband's business.

I never said anything about emancipation or parental involvement. I'm not complaining about working most of my life, or paying taxes. I'm just curious about the way the system is set up. Paying taxes for years without any ability to have input into our government seems odd to me.

 

[YogiBare]

Wow! Thanks for the great thread, KM.

I'm really glad that this issue has started to get some media play.

 

[YogiBare]

Jazzman Jim said:

They have in years past, been jobbed badly by Congress for various reasons, but in the last ten years they've been left mostly to their own devices, and they've failed miserably.

 

[Myrrdin]

Rough guide to Washington?

~Scratches Washington DC off the list of places I wanna visit in the USA.~