Tanks allot! Soviet Imperialism in Africa

[Frimost]

Since we are on the discussion of Imperialism in Africa on another thread whose title has nothing to do with the relevancy of the current debate, so here is a new thread.

One good way to judge a countries orientation is from whom sells then their weapons (especially during the cold war when you had to purchase from either one competing block or the other and they were mutually exclusive supplies).

American Main Battle Tanks currently operated by Sub-Saharan (black) nations: 0, NONE, NADDA, ZIPPO!

Soviet Main Battle Tanks operating in African countries: 24!

Countries that the Soviets bullied into converting to full-blown Marxist-Leninist governments include:

1. Angola
2. Ethiopia
3. Mozambique
4. The Republic of Congo
5. Benin

Let’s do this by type here to be detailed and specific.

Countries the Soviet T-34/84 Main Battle Tank has been exported too in Africa (I am not counting the Arab North here). The T-34/85 has a 85mm gun and 90mm of armor.

1. Angola
2. Ethiopia
3. The Republic of Congo
4. Equatorial Guinea
5. Guinea
6. Guinea-Bissau
7. Mali
8. Mozambique
9. Somalia
10. Sudan
11. Togo
12. Zimbabwe
13. Namibia

African Countries were the Soviet T-54/55 Main Battle Tank have been exported to in Africa (100mm gun and 203mm of armor).

1. Angola
2. Ethiopia
3. The Republic of Congo
4. Equatorial Guinea
5. Guinea
6. Guinea-Bissau
7. Mali
8. Mozambique
9. Somalia
10. Sudan
11. Togo
12. Zimbabwe
13. Namibia
14. Nigeria
15. Tanzania
16. Uganda
17. The Central African Republic
18. Eritrea
19. Zambia
20. Chad
21. Rwanda
22. Mauritania
23. Malawi

African Countries that operate the Soviet T-62 Main Battle Tank (115mm gun and 242mm of armor).

1. Angola
2. Ethiopia
3. Mozambique (in storage)
4. Eritrea
5. Somalia (all now non-operational)

African Countries that operate the T-72 Main Battle Tank (300mm of armor and 125mm gun).

1. Angola
2. Ethiopia
3. Sierra Leone (they just recently bought only 2)

Noooooow, if we just go back far enough, I will show you ALL of the tanks we did export to Sub-Saharan African countries long ago but are no longer in use.

The M-47 'Patton' Main Battle Tank (112mm of armor and a 90mm gun).

1. Ethiopia
2. Somalia
3. Sudan

The M-60A1/A3 ‘Patton’ Main Battle Tank (250mm of armor and a 105mm gun).

1. Sudan
2. Ethiopia

NOW who interfered in African affairs in a neo-colonialist fashion with little regard to the nations they were selling weapons too? Hell, our hands aren’t clean by any means but we are friggin Mother Theresa compared to the Soviets!

 

[bluespoke]

Hell, our hands aren’t clean by any means but we are friggin Mother Theresa compared to the Soviets!

No, you are more expensive than the Soviets!!!

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Tanks allot! Soviet Imperialism in Africa

No, you are more expensive than the Soviets!!!

Now THAT'S funny, but true.

On the other hand you get what you pay for. All of that hardware and the best that can be said of it is that they make for excellent targets.

In the battle of 73 Easting, the only tank on tank encounter of any real consequence in Desert Storm, what was the score? M-1A's 110 or so, T-72/73's zero.

You do get what you pay for.

Ishmael

 

[SINthysist]

The next generation of African hardware will be Chinese.

 

[bluespoke]

Re: Re: Re: Tanks allot! Soviet Imperialism in Africa

You do get what you pay for.

Ishmael

I agree, but those that bought Soviet were more concerned with quantity not quality.

A false economy maybe but there you have it.

 

[SINthysist]

Weren't most of those sales giveaways? Based on credits and under-the-table agreements that the Soviets (I, mean Russians) knew would never materialize?

I mean they do have a certain point of perception on how markets work that are not exactly Adam Smith...

 

[Frimost]

Yes SINthysist, many if not the VAST majority of the tanks were give-aways. Despite the myopic shortsightedness of some of the posters here who have replied weapons inventory DOES tell ALLOT about a countries policy and inventory. GUESS WHAT? ALL NATO countries use WESTERN equipment. Western allies and democracies use Western equipment, many of which are give-ways by the USA and NATO. All Western European countries and Western-oriented allied nations use USA or other Western European-made armaments with the exception of Finland and of course ex-Warsaw Pact countries as they need time to switch over to our weapons.

Warsaw Pact nations use old Soviet Equipment. Communist Block nations use Soviet equipment. Soviet allies and other socialist countries with a tilt to the ex-Soviet Union use old Soviet equipment.

Among others:
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, the former-Yugoslavia, Albania, Yemen, Libya, Laos, and Cambodia use ex-Soviet equipment.

When Indonesia under Sukarno was close to the Soviet Union for a short time THEY got Soviet equipment.

Before Egypt signed a peace pact with Israel and switched Cold War sponsors deciding to cozy-up to the US, they got Soviet equipment.

India while a democracy was very close to the Soviet Union, an ally really, THEY got Soviet equipment and still do.

So yes, they ARE cheaper BUT we don't sell weapons to our enemies (we may accidentally sell to future enemies but not current declared enemies). We ALSO don't sell to the most egregious human-rights abusers because many NGOs and human rights groups usually manage to stop such sales with only a few exceptions country-wise here and there. You want to talk about brutal nations though, what type of weapons did the most brutal regime since WW2 use, the Khmer Rouge, who killed 1.5 to 3 MILLION of its own people? Why they used Soviet and Chinese made weapons of course!

So communist and extreme socialist countries use COM-block weapons.

Democracies and Western allied countries use Western European-made weapons and US armaments.

 

[Frimost]

SINthysist

The next generation of African hardware will be Chinese.

To a certain extent that is already occurring, but they luckily mostly make shoddy imitation crap.

The Type-59 Main Battle Tank (a cheap Chinese copy of the Soviet T-55). A 100mm gun and 203mm of armor.

1. Zimbabwe (35, some destroyed in the Congo)
2. Zambia (10)
3. D.R. Congo (20, being re-furbished)
4. Sudan (10+, but none may be left because of civil war)
5. Tanzania (30, but only 15 are operational)
6. R. of Congo (15, who knows how many are left post-civil war)

The Type-69 Main Battle Tank, an upgraded and improved Type-59 that can mount either the soviet copied 100mm gun or an imitation 105mm British L-7 gun on it.

1. Zimbabwe (10, Robert Mugabe must be tight with the Chinese communists to be the only Black African leader to have received these).

The Type-62 Light Tank, this is a pretty cool tank. Its basically a T-55 MBT but shrunk by a third, so its kinda like am exact miniature of the Type-59. The tank mounts an 85mm gun and probably has around 50mm of armor or so.

1. D.R. Congo (40, who knows how many survived the incessant warfare)
2. Tanzania (30)
3. Sudan (100)
4. Mali (18)
5. R. of Congo (14, again, not accounting for warfare losses).

So as you can see they are already doing business there with at least seven different countries.

 

[Ishmael]

Carrying this over from another thread, but. It's plain to see that the interests of the African nations is NOT the welfare of the people, but the prestige that the leaders enjoy from having their 'toys'. And through all of this, the US is painted as the 'bad' guy.

One wonders why I don't really give a shit about the starving Africans. When they smart up enough to know that their leaders are selling them down the river and salting the national treasure away in Swiss banks, or the equivalent, then I'll pay attention.

But so long as they are buying the "Great Satan" trip they can find my sympathy in the dictionary. It's between Shit and Syphillis.

Ishmael