Take Out Gaddafi

dr_mabeuse

seduce the mind
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Posts
11,528
Invading Iraq was the wrong policy at the wrong time in the wrong place, and I was dead set against it. But taking out Moamar Gaddafi is the right policy at the right time in the right place and the US should be doing all it can to neutralize his air power and establish a no-fly zone in Libya. That's probably all it will take to shift the balance of power enough to the rebel side that Gaddafi will be essentially toppled.

Establishing a no-fly means taking out Libya's air-defense and SAM sites in initial bombing raids, which is something The US can do quite handily. Enforcement can then be handled mostly by French and NATO forces. But if we hit him right in a first strike, there really won't be much enforcing to do.

Reasons:

--Much more than Saddam Hussein ever was, Gaddafi is a protector and instigator of anti-Western terrorism, recent promises to the contrary notwithstanding.

--Gaddafi is a sworn enemy of the Arab League and his remaining in power is a threat to Egypt, Tunisia, and the emerging Arab democracies of North Africa.

--The rebel forces have broad local support and are capable of forming their own government without the need for foreign occupation and stabilization. I.e., we don't have to send in troops.

--It's time America put some muscle behind all its empty talk about supporting freedom and democracy. There's a lot of Arab goodwill and credibility to be garnered from stepping in now and helping toss him out. An ally or even semi-ally in the middle of North Africa would go a long way in helping stabilize all of North Africa.

--It would piss off and distract the Iranians, the Chinese, and the Russians all at once. And isn't that alone worth it?
 
You might be right, Dr. M, but between the U.S. economy, Afghanistan, and, now, Japan, I don't know if we can afford to do it. Not only is the well dry, but we're drying out all the other wells we're borrowing water from.
 
We'll see.

I worry about what precedent it will set. For example, one of our Arab allies like Saudi Arabia has a rebellion and other nations decide to intervene. Will we be able to say, "No way" and not look like utter hypocrites?

The UN was founded to protect the sovereignty of all nations. Exceptions being made weakens that mandate, which is weak enough already thanks to the permanent members of the Security Council. If it weakens too much we'll be back to the days where the law of the jungle ruled relationships between nations. And as Helen Clark remarked before the Iraq invasion, "Who wants to live in the jungle?"
 
Now the French can show off their Air Forces. It will be a show and tell for their prospective clients to see how well their planes do against such a significant defense.

Somebody ought to take out the gun boats too. Navel artillery is worse than aerial bombardment.
 
"the emerging Arab democracies of North Africa." Quoted from Dr. M

Well doc wanna make a bet on how many democracies we will see in the end?
 
-It's time America put some muscle behind all its empty talk about supporting freedom and democracy. There's a lot of Arab goodwill and credibility to be garnered from stepping in now and helping toss him out. An ally or even semi-ally in the middle of North Africa would go a long way in helping stabilize all of North Africa.

Of course, the fact that there's a lot of oil under Libya is not significant, is it !
 
Funny how no one has yet identified just who the 'revolutionaries' are in Libya, or in Tunisia, Morocco or Egypt, or any one of the dozen uprisings in the middle east.

My bet is that Islamic fundamentalists will be the ultimate winners and that intervention at this point is merely strengthening the consolidation of Caliphate bound Islamists.

Nato and US intervention is the beginning of the long awaited conflict between Islam and the Western World.

Amicus Veritas:rose:
 

China...
CNOOC, Sinopec, PetroChina
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=600028:CH

Russia...
Rosneft, LUKoil, Gazprom, Tatneft, Gazpromneft, TNK-BP

Light sweet crude
1.5 MMBOPD

Britain...
Royal Dutch Shell, BP

France...
Total, S.A.

Italy...
ENI, SpA.
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=ENI:IM

Spain...
Repsol-YPF, S.A.

Brent...
$113.72/barrel

Arab League...

Egypt...

Tunisia...

Morocco...

Iraq...

Algeria...

Benghazi...

Israel...

Saudi Arabia...

West Bank...


U.S.A.
ExxonMobil
Chevron
ConocoPhillips
 
Okay, things are getting serious. Germany is wimping out but both Denmark and Canada are sending planes along with the UK, France and the US. See what happens when you manage somehow to offend everybody?
 
Its another gambit to control the supply of oil and oil prices. We invaded Iraq cuz of oil, and we remain in Iraq to control the oil.

I mean, you gotta wonder why Gaddafi is a problem in March 2011 and he wasnt a problem in 2010.
 
I mean, you gotta wonder why Gaddafi is a problem in March 2011 and he wasnt a problem in 2010.

Damn!! It looks like even Jimbo can have a point every now and then.

After all, nothing has happened in Libya, or any place near it for the past year.

Yup, yup, yup...nothin'...pass the pork rinds...
 
--Gaddafi is a sworn enemy of the Arab League and his remaining in power is a threat to Egypt, Tunisia, and the emerging Arab democracies of North Africa.
Then shouldn't the Arab League establish this no fly zone? They do have plenty of planes themselves. :confused:
 
You might be right, Dr. M, but between the U.S. economy, Afghanistan, and, now, Japan, I don't know if we can afford to do it. Not only is the well dry, but we're drying out all the other wells we're borrowing water from.

The bombs are already paid for. I say go.
 
Then shouldn't the Arab League establish this no fly zone? They do have plenty of planes themselves. :confused:

They will be part of it, if only from the standpoint of bases and support. The problem will be that the best Arab armed forces, outside of Egypt, are the Saudis and the Jordanians. Both those autocratic governments must be more than a little nervous about a UN mandate for violence to protect civilians from their own governments.
 
We'll see.

I worry about what precedent it will set. For example, one of our Arab allies like Saudi Arabia has a rebellion and other nations decide to intervene. Will we be able to say, "No way" and not look like utter hypocrites?

The UN was founded to protect the sovereignty of all nations. Exceptions being made weakens that mandate, which is weak enough already thanks to the permanent members of the Security Council. If it weakens too much we'll be back to the days where the law of the jungle ruled relationships between nations. And as Helen Clark remarked before the Iraq invasion, "Who wants to live in the jungle?"

Precedent schmecedent. We already do whatever we want and rationalize it afterward. What's going to happen? Are people going to make, "shame, shame" at us?

And don't underestimate the psychological lift of seeing a few well-placed smart bombs or camera-equipped Tomahawks lighting up the shores of Tripoli. With all the chaos and helplessness in Japan, there'd be sharp satisfaction in taking out Gadaffi's air force and showing what a pitiful, helpless giant can do.
 
They will be part of it, if only from the standpoint of bases and support. The problem will be that the best Arab armed forces, outside of Egypt, are the Saudis and the Jordanians. Both those autocratic governments must be more than a little nervous about a UN mandate for violence to protect civilians from their own governments.
If that's the way they feel, why are they part of asking the UN to put in no fly zone? :confused:
 
Damn!! It looks like even Jimbo can have a point every now and then.

After all, nothing has happened in Libya, or any place near it for the past year.

Yup, yup, yup...nothin'...pass the pork rinds...

John D. Rockefeller did the same in the 1800s. Too many people refined oil and there wasnt much money to be made; so he got rid of the competition and eliminated all the pols who demanded pay-offs.

If the truth be told Gaddafi's selling oil cheaper than the others. Saddam did the same and we hanged him.

Bush and Obama learned from the master.
 
Maybe because there's a full-scale, citizen's revolution going on, and Gaddafi's hanging on by his air force.

Why now? I suspect the eruption of democracy in that region is artificial and Made in the USA.
 
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