Tactical Voting

[Octavian]

I know I should not take so much notice of the voting, feedback is a more authentic way to determine how well received a story is, but I can’t help it.
And this prompts me to ask what is the point of giving someone a ‘1’ vote? If the story is poor, surely most people would not bother to vote at all. Call me paranoid if you like, but I suspect the people giving a vote of ‘1’ are likely to be other authors who are seeking to protect their own status by tactical voting. A vote of ‘1’ really knocks your average score
---I know, it has now happened to me three times!

 

[KillerMuffin]

I used to think so. Then I picked up this email from our dear friend anonymous.

"I gave your story a one because I didn't like it."


Most one votes are legitimate. Or so I prefer to think.

 

[Octavian]

I wish I could be so certain. Yesterday my score was 4.7 from 123 votes. Today it is 4.67 from 124 votes. Interestingly enough the number of views was unchanged.
The self-same thing happened last week except the one additional vote took my score from 4.71 to 4.68.
I’ve done the arithmetic and to get the score I have, at least 107, perhaps 120, out of 124 have voted 5 or 4.
Having seen the votes accumulate I can state that only 4, and possibly only 3 people, have registered a ‘1’
Of course it is possible that these 3 or 4 all hated the story, or felt it was too long and voted accordingly. But I have had no negative feedback, not even from Mr Anonymous. On the contrary, I have had extremely positive feedback, and from 20 different people too. Some of it has been almost embarrassingly fulsome.
I am not trying to win anything; I haven’t even voted for my own story. But I don’t like the idea of someone spoiling my score and I have to say that I do have my doubts about the legitimacy of at least two of the low votes.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Views update once a day, when the site updates. Vote scores update as a new vote is registered. You can conceivably have more votes than views. It happens.

It may not necessarily have been a 1 on your story. Of course, I don't know the math, never cared to find out.

Eventually, you get used to it. The thing generally is that the minute your story hit the top lists it's going to drop dramatically. That's all she wrote. People are weird, that's about the only thing I've found out.

I had a guy go through and give every single story I had a 1, and then told me he was going to get his friends to do it because I wouldn't have phone sex with him.

*shrugs*

It's nice, I leave the voting turned on because I like to give the readers the option to vote, and I like looking at the scores. I used to get paranoid about it (please don't dig up the thread, I'm embarrassed...). Eventually, though, you either turn it off, go nuts, or get past it. Cause the only way to make a better system would be to have registered voters and that would cut the votes down to the point where there's no point.

For what it's worth, I seriously feel for ya. I had high hopes for my latest and it hit the skids and kept right on going. *sigh*

 

[vic450]

Octavian,

I agree with KillerMuffin. It's one of those things that drove me crazy. It took NCmVoyeur's patient and honest appraisal of my stories for me to realize that the votes, while nice to have really isn't an honest gauge of what your story is.

As I mentioned in another reply, I now judge the worth of my stories from (the few) feedbacks I get. Whether the reader enjoyed it or hated it.

I've had a few of my stories 'sabotaged' like your's and KillerMuffin's (although it wasn't because someone wanted to have phone sex with me - strange tho, I thought I am quite decent at it - ).

At one point, I got hooked on the 'views' stat. Because my viewer-ship was skyrocketting within the first few days of the posting, I thought my stories were getting around by (good) word of mouth/email. But does it mean they like the stories? Nope. It just means there are people reading it.

So now I'm at the point where I just look at my stats, smile and wait for any feedback. If I get a negative feedback (with an email address), I reply asking why they didn't like it. Three out of five usually writes back to say why. I make a mental note and hopefully the next time I write, I'll fix it so that reader may like the next piece.

Like I said, it's the only way to really see what your story's worth is.

Hope this helps.

Be well and safe,
Vic

 

[Laurel]

A single 1-vote is not generally foul play. Every reader has the right to cast a single vote on any story. They can vote whatever they want, for whatever reasons they want.

What they cannot or should not do is cast multiple votes of any kind on a single story, or go through and 1-vote a whole series/category of stories. If you ever suspect that that type of activity is happening, send me a PM (PLEASE don't post about it publicly) and I'll look into it asap. We have a fraud detection system, but with the high traffic the site gets and the number of stories added every day, it can't check every vote in real time.

Vote cheaters hit my nerve like nothing else. Grr.

 

[Octavian]

KillerMuffin

Thanks for your sympathetic comment. And don’t worry, I’m not about to look up your ‘paranoid’ thread. With 14500 posts to your name where would I start!

 

[Tyjord]

Votes

I have also wondered about the voting situation. In my less than one year here, I have posted 2 multi-part stories (5 posts all together). I used to watch the voting carefully and to be honest, I used to get pissed quite a bit. My stories would go up and down quicker than the stock market. I have at various times had the #1 story on the site (not for long though), as well as the #1 position in the respective categories. I found myself taking the drops in score way too seriously until I received feedback from an experienced member whose kind words of wisdom and encouragement made me look at things a whole new way.
Do I still get annoyed when my votes go down? Sure, it's natural to want your creation to do well. But when one considers all of the factors going into a vote (personal taste being the biggest), you come to realize it's just not worth worrying about.
For example, right now, one of my stories is up for best Celeb. story of 2001. Of the choices, mine has (or had, by now) the highest score, but in number of votes, I'm running third. Oh well.
I realize that my story actually fits better in a different category whose readers may not get over to the Celebrity category very often. I just consider it a great honor that my first story ever is in the running.
I do still have two pet peeves:
I wish more people would provide feedback to accompany their votes. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing that your work affected someone enough for them to let you know.
I would like to know why some stories posted only days (if not hours) earlier, can have votes in the triple digits, while other stories, up for much longer, only have a handful. Makes you wonder if there is tactical voting going on. It's a good thing I no longer care about that kind of stuff.

 

[ronde]

voting and posting times

"1" votes still bother me, but since I never get any feedback to say why, I have chosen to attribute them to one of two causes. The first is the reader who genuinely doesn't like my story, and that's OK with me. I just wish he/she would tell me why. The second is a mythological creature who abhors success in anyone other than him/herself. Actually, I know a couple of people who are congenital nay-sayers, so maybe there's not so much myth there afterall. As KM says, my "1" votes usually are cast as soon as the story hits the "Top Lists". I have grudgingly learned to appreciate the fact that some people do take the time to vote. It's surprising how many stories on Lit have (x.xx) for a score.

As I tend to be somewhat analytical, I have tried to vary the posting days to determine if this made a difference in readers, votes or score. I had a couple theories:

Stories posted on the weekend don't get read until Monday because people are busy.

People always read at work. but Monday is too busy, so they read the rest of the week.


After my experiments, I have come to the conclusion that how many reads you get depends on the category, any reader following you may have, and upon the popularity of the currently playing re-rerun of Star Trek.

If you want to really find out how well you're doing, submit a story to the Story Discussion Board. You'll get a fair appraisal and some suggestions for improvement from other authors who care.

 

[Octavian]

Ronde

I must admit that I hadn’t considered nay-sayers, but I still think the most likely person to vote ‘1’ is another author with a vested interest. (I did say I was paranoid!)
Isn’t it ludicrous that if I so wished, I could vote ‘1’ on your story, not because it was poor---on the contrary, it was very good, but simply because it threatened the status of mine.
I wonder if it would be fairer to do away with graduated voting altogether, and substitute it with one button. The reader could then click on it if he/she thought the story merited it.
The number of votes would then reflect the number of readers who considered the story to be outstanding. It is harder to manipulate the voting if you have to serial vote for your own story. And it would not be possible to sabotage any one else’s either!

 

[Guilty As Charged]

Let me add my two cents with a little math...

I've often watched really good stories hit the top five with a solid number of votes then fall dramatically after only a few votes more. I would never claim to know why this happens so often but I have my theories:

The most diplomatic is that, as a story nears the top of the list, people in general become more strict in their voting. When most people, with the intent of casting their vote, clicks on a story rated at number one, they'll naturally notice EVERY misspelling and EVERY general error and vote accordingly. The theory is that people want perfection from a top rated story and will do their best to vote it out if it doesn't meet their expectations. Also, when people see a story ranked higher than another story they feel is better, they'll vote down to better the chances of the story they like. Comparison voting in it's purest form and a morally grey practice. The top of the list is, therefore, where you'll find more people without a vested interest casting 1's and 2's.

A second idea is that people who simply enter the site, browse the top lists, and cast a quick vote are more likely to be nasty with their numbers. These people feel less of a connection with the site and the authors who work diligently to write quality stories. They are also more likely to insist that a five means the story is absolutely perfect in every way imaginable and should be granted the Nobel Prize for (Erotic) Literature.

A last thought is that some authors are malicious and will vote low on a story to better their ranking (tactile voting). I think most people would agree that it's safe to say this happens a lot but some solace that can be taken by honest victims. By the rule of averages (all things being equal and nerdy) roughly the same number of malicious people will vote down every story that nears the top in an attempt to better their own scores. By saying this I don't excuse those who practice the bad habit, but hope to bring light to the fact that cheaters get what they give.

And that, in 300+ short words, is my two-cents.

 

[rennie]

I think tactical voting has to be one of the stupidist things imaginable!

People work hard to write stories and other than praise from readers and other writers, get nothing in return.

Those people who purposefully vote against other people to better there own stories are just cheating themselves and so in a small way do those who vote even once for their own stories.

And I'd like to think that any votes i recieve are genuinly earned and show a realistic score.

I do realise that my stories probably aren't that good and so are unlikely to recieve any tactical voting unlike some of your stories. I also realise that any scores i have are probably higher than i deserve because many people who don't like the stories won't vote.

I realise this is a bit of a rant and probably doesn't even make a point but i wanted to have a say.

 

[ronde]

Voting should stay as it is

I would keep the voting system as it is for one reason; voting gives people who really like a story the ability to quickly tell that to the author. Even though the voting system may be misused by a few, I would not deny this instant feedback to the many who cast their vote honestly.

We all burn a little when a story drops, and probably some tactical voting does take place. We need to remember, however, that a story that has a 3 score is liked by at least half the voters, and that's probably not too bad considering the wide variety of readers who come here. A 4 means 80% liked it. If the same ratio applies to the number of reads, a 4 appeals to a lot of people. Many "professional" authors probably have a smaller following.

 

[NoJo]

Voting

I was very properly dissuaded by a more experienced member here from enumerating the many ways in which voting could be "rigged" on this (or any) web site. "Corruption" of sorts is inevitable in democracy, but I really think that until Lit.com starts offering Pulitzer or Booker Prize level money, there's not much to concern us here.
Here are some ways of upping your vote that I believe are OK:

1. Write a very, very popular story
2. Beg unashamedly at the end of your story for votes (could backfire)
3. Get all your friends to vote for your story (not applicable in my case)
4. Request feedback from authors. Generally authors are more encouraging than non-authors.


I personally think that each member should have just one vote per month, and all they can do is vote "X", i.e. as in an election ballot. Besides barring the technical cheats that allow people to vote more than once , voting on one's own story should also be disallowed.

Editors and Literotica staff should of course be under the same constraints as authors and readers.

Joe.

 

[Octavian]

Sub Joe

Thanks for the tips. I now realise where I went wrong.
1. Absolutely no chance!
2. I can readily beg for money, but not for votes.
3. No trouble. I’m terrifically popular. If I had any friends you could ask them!
4. That is possible, as long as you haven't already alienated a number of them---by questioning the validity of the voting!

Thanks to you and to the other contributors at least I now recognise that voting is only a superficial means of measuring success. But, hell I’m a superficial sort of guy!

 

[NoJo]

Guilty as Charged

A last thought is that some authors are malicious and will vote low on a story to better their ranking (tactile voting).

Guilty,
Please teach me how to do tactile voting -- it sounds a lot of fun.

 

[Octavian]

Tactile veto-ing

That is the problem with Weird
It only highlights wads that are wrongly spilt.

 

[Guilty As Charged]

Tactile Kinesis

Sub,

First, you place your hands on the monitor and close your eyes. Then, you concentrate on a whole number from 1 to 5. Last, you laugh at Guilty As Charged and remind him of his typo the next time he starts to get a holier-than-thou attitude.

Guilty

 

[margo_x_x]

I would like to see a 1 to 3 scale. Bad, good, and excellent. The way it is now, only ass holes click on one. No matter how bad something is, some poor slob is sitting there, biting his or her nails, and praying that somebody likes it. I’ll give you odds that 2 and 3 are almost never voted. I used to give fours and fives, before I started submitting stories, now I either give a five, or I don’t vote. The way the system is set up now, the worst of the dregs wield the most power, especially when the voting just starts and you’re checking it fifty times a day. Example: ten people give you a five. Avg. 5.00. You scream, dance, kiss whoever is close enough, get the fur out of your mouth if it’s a cat, and hit “refresh.” 4.64! What!!!?? Some (expletive deleted) gave you a one. Ah, what power he wields, this is more fun than kicking puppies. Now consider my system. Ten 3’s, 3.0. plus a 1 = 2.82. The percentage drop would be less, and we’d probably get more objective voting.

 

[coaster12345]

the easy answer to this whole voting imbroglio is that voting
doesn't matter. as octavio has shown, it's all silly arithmetic,
dominated by adolescents, misfits and wannabes who know
that a "one" vote will drag a story so far down it will never
recover high enough to gain the big red h.

i've often thought how much better the board would be if it
encouraged readers to speak --- not just vote--- in support
of authors they admired, themes in which they were
interested, and specific examples of those themes.

as it is--- and if i'm missing something, please inform me---
the forum seems to me to be nothing more than a self-
publicizing playback platform for submitted stories, and
--- to put honestly what i feel right now--- a club.

az

 

[Sixty-nine]

the easy answer to this whole voting imbroglio is that voting
doesn't matter. as octavio has shown, it's all silly arithmetic,
dominated by adolescents, misfits and wannabes who know
that a "one" vote will drag a story so far down it will never
recover high enough to gain the big red h.

i've often thought how much better the board would be if it
encouraged readers to speak --- not just vote--- in support
of authors they admired, themes in which they were
interested, and specific examples of those themes.

as it is--- and if i'm missing something, please inform me---
the forum seems to me to be nothing more than a self-
publicizing playback platform for submitted stories, and
--- to put honestly what i feel right now--- a club.

az

I'm new to the boards but I have seen threads designated for authors who want to give kudos to other authors they admire. Some people have even gone so far as to create threads for specific authors or stories they liked (KillerMuffin's latest series is a good example). I do agree that it can sometimes be difficult to weed out the good threads over the self-glamourizing ones, but this board is what we make it.

I sound like an administrator or som'n.

I totally agree with you, though, that the votes are pretty much meaningless. The one thing I don't like about them, though, (and I realize that this is unavoidable) is that one or two 1's and 2's by the aforementioned adolescents, misfits, and wannabes can quickly throw a good story into obscurity in the rankings. I've seen good stories disappear to almost never be read again simply because someone obviously wanted to protect their own ranking.

I know there have been many but here's my suggestion: Don't let any story be voted on by any author that has another story in the top 20, 25, or 50 (Laurel's choice) of that category. Those are the people who are really concerned about their positions and are, therefore, more likely to vote low to protect themselves. That would give AMW's less of a chance to rig things in their favor.

 

[Tyjord]

In regards to the board becoming a "club", I find that I pretty much agree with Coaster on that. I don't post very often because, for the most part, I don't think newbies are made to feel very welcome. Most of the boards seem to be dominated by "cliques" of individuals who, quite honestly, like to hear themselves talk (insomuch as that's possible when writing). There is one group that I would love to post at regularly, but I feel daunted by the fact that the regulars only seem to talk to each other, while ignoring posts from anyone else.
This of course is just my opinion.
Gee, this seems like a new thread topic. Sorry about the digression.
We now return to tactical voting, already in progress...

 

[Sixty-nine]

Wait, wait! Before we get back to the tactical voting issue...

Sorry I skipped the point coaster made about the Literotica Post Club but I was just soo busy trying to make other points.

I agree, Literotica definitely has it's in crowd, but that's going to be the same in any bulletin board you go to. People get comfortable with each other, people form groups that they're comfortable in, and people like pooping on others to make themselves feel better, even if it's for a reason that's as simple as having less than 1000 posts on a BB.

I don't worry about it too much. Let 'em have their little clubhouse with their little "No Newbies Allowed" sign over the entrance, and make friends with the people who don't concern themselves as much with point counts.

Oh, and there seem to be fewer mean people in the "Amateur Picture Posts" area than in the "General Board" area. I've only been doing the conversational posting thing for a few days, but that's been my observation.

 

[Sixty-nine]

Ok, now back to tactical voting. I give it a 1.

 

[margo_x_x]

Damn it! The votes ARE important. We are already using a three point system. We vote five for excellence, kindness, or that certain flushed feeling. Four, if we thought it was okay, but there were too many faults to pass out the laurels, and “ones” for a number of reasons that don't bare close scrutiny. 'Twos' and 'Threes' are given so seldom that they are statistically irrelevant. The principle of one man, one vote, is thwarted under the current system because the man who gives a one cancels the votes of at least four people, and hurts the better writers the most. It would be much better to have “2” as the center point. Then each 1 would be canceled by a 3, and the “one bandits” would discover their time would be better spent improving their writing skills than trying to drag down everyone above them.