Switching POV within a chapter.

[lovecraft68]

Hey look a "writerly" question!

In the latest chapter I am working on it begins-as most of the series is-from the sister's pov. As the chapter moves along she finds something in her brother's office and confronts him on it. He is going to tell her the story behind it and it will be done by as a "flashback" which would now of course be from his POV.

My question is; is this acceptable? Two POV's within the same chapter or should I add a little to the current chapter then have it end with him preparing to tell the story and the next chapter begins from his POV?

If I do it in the same chapter I will obviously use the ***** for breaks signifying the beginning of his narrative and then at the end as when he is done telling his story it returns to the sister's pov for her reaction to it.

Personally I would like it in one as although it would be lengthy I would like to keep the number of chapters down but I don't know if I would be confusing the reader by bouncing around too much.

Your thoughts?

 

[PennLady]

Hey look a "writerly" question!

In the latest chapter I am working on it begins-as most of the series is-from the sister's pov. As the chapter moves along she finds something in her brother's office and confronts him on it. He is going to tell her the story behind it and it will be done by as a "flashback" which would now of course be from his POV.

My question is; is this acceptable? Two POV's within the same chapter or should I add a little to the current chapter then have it end with him preparing to tell the story and the next chapter begins from his POV?

If I do it in the same chapter I will obviously use the ***** for breaks signifying the beginning of his narrative and then at the end as when he is done telling his story it returns to the sister's pov for her reaction to it.

Personally I would like it in one as although it would be lengthy I would like to keep the number of chapters down but I don't know if I would be confusing the reader by bouncing around too much.

Your thoughts?

I'm not sure about acceptable but I do this all the time. I switch POVs within a chapter more than once, usually between the two principals unless there's a reason another character needs some "screen time." I think it's fine, especially if there's something to indicate the switch.

I will say, though, that I read a lot of Nora Roberts and she will switch POVs without that kind of visual break. She'll start, say, with the woman, and do some of the scene from that POV, and then have a graph where the woman talks to the guy. The next graph will then pick up with the guy's POV, his reaction to what she said, whatever, and go on from there.

I don't usually do that except in some of my sex scenes, because I feel like the ***** breaks it up too much and ruins the flow of the scene. I try to keep it to a minimum, though.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not sure about acceptable but I do this all the time. I switch POVs within a chapter more than once, usually between the two principals unless there's a reason another character needs some "screen time." I think it's fine, especially if there's something to indicate the switch.

I will say, though, that I read a lot of Nora Roberts and she will switch POVs without that kind of visual break. She'll start, say, with the woman, and do some of the scene from that POV, and then have a graph where the woman talks to the guy. The next graph will then pick up with the guy's POV, his reaction to what she said, whatever, and go on from there.

I don't usually do that except in some of my sex scenes, because I feel like the ***** breaks it up too much and ruins the flow of the scene. I try to keep it to a minimum, though.

So Roberts writes almost in a "He said she said" type of style? Interesting. I did a fight scene like that once to try to convey the mutual hatred the fighters had fro each other but I lost myself by the end and scrapped it.

If you don't mind send me the link to the story that you switch pov during an actual sex scene. In my mind I can't see how that would work so would like to see your example.

My dilemma is also that early on she flashes back to the past once (with *****) and comes back so now its his turn to go backwards as well. From what you say though it should be okay as long as I use the breaks and also provide a decent segue.

Thanks for the advice

 

[Dual_Triode]

Hey look a "writerly" question!

In the latest chapter I am working on it begins-as most of the series is-from the sister's pov. As the chapter moves along she finds something in her brother's office and confronts him on it. He is going to tell her the story behind it and it will be done by as a "flashback" which would now of course be from his POV.

My question is; is this acceptable? Two POV's within the same chapter or should I add a little to the current chapter then have it end with him preparing to tell the story and the next chapter begins from his POV?

If I do it in the same chapter I will obviously use the ***** for breaks signifying the beginning of his narrative and then at the end as when he is done telling his story it returns to the sister's pov for her reaction to it.

Personally I would like it in one as although it would be lengthy I would like to keep the number of chapters down but I don't know if I would be confusing the reader by bouncing around too much.

Your thoughts?

A while back, I submitted a story for critical review in the SDC sub-forum. Among other newbie mistakes, I was dinged for disruptive POV shifts, or "head hopping". That experience, while humbling, was very instructive. A subsequent rewrite of that story addressed the POV shifting and other errors.

I don't think shifting POV is necessarily a bad thing. Within a scene, however, I now try to use a different technique. If I need to peer inside the head of another character, I try to reveal their thoughts through observed behavior, body language, and dialog. If that is insufficient, I will shift the POV their direction in the next scene. Also, if a scene change occurs within a chapter, I will indicate the boundary with some kind of visual marker.

I find writing this way an interesting exercise. I now have become quite keen about observing people's behavior in public places. You can tell an awful lot about mood and emotional state just by observing body language.

~Dual

 

[jomar]

As long as it flows well and is not confusing to the reader, do what you want.

On a different front, it seems pretty standard to have new chapters when switching from first person to third and back.

 

[lovecraft68]

A while back, I submitted a story for critical review in the SDC sub-forum. Among other newbie mistakes, I was dinged for disruptive POV shifts, or "head hopping". That experience, while humbling, was very instructive. A subsequent rewrite of that story addressed the POV shifting and other errors.

I don't think shifting POV is necessarily a bad thing. Within a scene, however, I now try to use a different technique. If I need to peer inside the head of another character, I try to reveal their thoughts through observed behavior, body language, and dialog. If that is insufficient, I will shift the POV their direction in the next scene. Also, if a scene change occurs within a chapter, I will indicate the boundary with some kind of visual marker.

I find writing this way an interesting exercise. I now have become quite keen about observing people's behavior in public places. You can tell an awful lot about mood and emotional state just by observing body language.

~Dual

That's good advice and honestly since I have been writing I have found myself "people watching" quite a bit more.

In my case however I am not really "head hopping". In this scene it's pretty much the brother telling a "story" something that could not be shown any other way but from his POV. Going with what Penn Lady and Jomar have said i should be okay as long as I am clear with my "breaking points"

Thank you for the input and the SDC is a great forum. I learned a lot about my "lesbian" writing skills over there.

 

[lovecraft68]

As long as it flows well and is not confusing to the reader, do what you want.

On a different front, it seems pretty standard to have new chapters when switching from first person to third and back.

In the past I handled it by ending a chapter with one character preparing to "tell a story" and start the next one off like that. However to break it off here I would have to add to each chapter to give them enough substance to stand alone and at the 31 chapter mark I am a bit tapped out and although I have everything outlined I do not have it in me to create more so I think I will just take my chances on this and get it out of the way. I think my breaks will be clear enough and I am down to my "core" audience who understand my style by now and should be able to follow.

 

[Grimfalcon]

If it's publishing answer you're looking for, it's all going to depend on what they want, from my take on it. I've run across some publishers that like to stick with a single POV while others like the multiple view to enhance the story, but with scene breaks or at least a POV break in between. ( I like to use scene breaks like a mini chapter, with the primary character in first person POV a lot of times, and secondary characters in third person.) It states pretty clearly what character is saying or thinking what, and doesn't give the impression of constant head-hopping.
Think it's just figuring out the right formula so the story still flows well, but gets the intended purpose of the plot across to the reader.

Ran across one publisher/ writer that don't seem to care one way or another and her writing flip-flops from one paragraph to another. Kind of gets wierd at that point for me.

 

[Weird Harold]

In the past I handled it by ending a chapter with one character preparing to "tell a story" and start the next one off like that. However to break it off here I would have to add to each chapter to give them enough substance to stand alone and at the 31 chapter mark I am a bit tapped out and although I have everything outlined I do not have it in me to create more so I think I will just take my chances on this and get it out of the way. I think my breaks will be clear enough and I am down to my "core" audience who understand my style by now and should be able to follow.

Much depends on the length and content of each POV. Half a chapter in one POV and the other half a flashback in another POV shouldn't be much of a problem.

One chapter per POV would be ideal if the scenes are long enough, but sometimes, you just need a paragraph or two from a different viewpoint -- or two or three -- and separate chapters just aren't workable.

I just finished re-reading A Mighty Fortress by David Weber. It includes several naval battles and as usual Weber shows one officer ordering a broadside and an immediate switch to an officer on the targeted ship followed by a switch to another POV on yet another ship. It produces an effect much like watching a football game with multiple picture-in-picture closeups on-screen. For naval/space battles, it is a technique that works well; I wouldn't recommend it for a sex scene involving less than a dozen people, though.

It's best to avoid head-hopping unless you need the specific effect it creates, but use whatever works best for the story and venue. In publishing, you can get away with wildly variable chapter lengths and keep each POV separate, but in an online serial, consistent chapter length is expected and important.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

If you look at the first part of the Walker Brigade series, you'll see me shift POV telling the story from a bunch of different characters. It's mainly the two primary characters, but there are other shifts. Of course each shift is clearly marked.

Other ways to do the shift would be to give a place/time change like they do in movie flashbacks.

"Okay sis, I'll tell you..."

October, 1974
New York, New York

With the coming of winter the streets were sloppy with slush...

 

[PennLady]

So Roberts writes almost in a "He said she said" type of style? Interesting. I did a fight scene like that once to try to convey the mutual hatred the fighters had fro each other but I lost myself by the end and scrapped it.

If you don't mind send me the link to the story that you switch pov during an actual sex scene. In my mind I can't see how that would work so would like to see your example.

My dilemma is also that early on she flashes back to the past once (with *****) and comes back so now its his turn to go backwards as well. From what you say though it should be okay as long as I use the breaks and also provide a decent segue.

Thanks for the advice

Well, I wouldn't say Roberts does he said/she said. It's not like she presents each scene from both POVs. It's just that she'll switch midway through without a visual break, but I think she does it in such a way that it's smooth and doesn't throw the reader.

As for me, I think I switch in most stories, but here's a recent one. This takes you to p4 of "Lost in the Woods," and if you scroll about half way down (you can search for "Clay chuckled") and start around there, you'll find the sex scene. http://www.literotica.com/s/lost-in-the-woods-5?page=4

Now if you just go to the story, you can skim through and see how I switch POVs with section breaks in the other parts. Since this was a stand-alone story, I couldn't do POVs per chapter, not that I do anyway, usually.

If I find a better example, I'll send a link.

 

[Jake Marlow]

I'd always been told that shifting POVs in a short story is a no-no. That said, I do it, and I do in chapters as well when it's called for. Many times, I don't want to be locked in one person's head. This is even more true when writing erotica, because I want to know what both characters are thinking. I agree with whoever said it doesn't matter as long as it's not jarring or confusing.

 

[PennLady]

I'd always been told that shifting POVs in a short story is a no-no. That said, I do it, and I do in chapters as well when it's called for. Many times, I don't want to be locked in one person's head. This is even more true when writing erotica, because I want to know what both characters are thinking. I agree with whoever said it doesn't matter as long as it's not jarring or confusing.

Someone somewhere may term this a no-no, but I'm with you -- I do it. I do have a few stories (Island Encounter, Who Cares What I Wear?, and Morning Sun) where I stay with one person's POV. However in most of my stories, I switch, even in the short(er) ones (Lost in the Woods, Horses in the City, Facing the Past, others). I can't see why switching would be a no-no, to be honest. If you're exploring a story involving more than one person, it's likely you'll need more than one POV, even in a short story.

Like you, Jake, I don't want usually want to be with just one person. I want to know what everyone is thinking, even with my writing, so that's why I do 3d person.

Ultimately, like most anything else in writing a story, I feel that as long as it's clear to the reader, it's good.

 

[michchick98]

Hey look a "writerly" question!

In the latest chapter I am working on it begins-as most of the series is-from the sister's pov. As the chapter moves along she finds something in her brother's office and confronts him on it. He is going to tell her the story behind it and it will be done by as a "flashback" which would now of course be from his POV.

My question is; is this acceptable? Two POV's within the same chapter or should I add a little to the current chapter then have it end with him preparing to tell the story and the next chapter begins from his POV?

If I do it in the same chapter I will obviously use the ***** for breaks signifying the beginning of his narrative and then at the end as when he is done telling his story it returns to the sister's pov for her reaction to it.

Personally I would like it in one as although it would be lengthy I would like to keep the number of chapters down but I don't know if I would be confusing the reader by bouncing around too much.

Your thoughts?

I "head hop" all the time. Most of the time I don't get called out on it. Well, I might silently by reader votes or whatever, but basically no one complains too much.

I read a lot and I see tons of head hopping within scenes and chapters, especially from (as PennLady pointed out) Nora Roberts.

Is it acceptable? Probably not. Would it increase my sales of my e-books if I cut out the head hopping? Doubtful.

However, the most recent story I wrote, which I have yet to post here, the person who edited for me called me out on the POV switch, only because one of the publishers she writes for calls her out on it and now (as she says) she's "hyper-aware of it" in anything she reads.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Good writers can do almost anything but LIT writers arent in that category. In the scheme of things theyre sophomores (wise fools) NOT seniors.

LOVE BOAT's been writing all of a week and wanting to try the high wire befo he learns to crawl good.

 

[lovecraft68]

Good writers can do almost anything but LIT writers arent in that category. In the scheme of things theyre sophomores (wise fools) NOT seniors.

LOVE BOAT's been writing all of a week and wanting to try the high wire befo he learns to crawl good.

JBJ claims to have been writing forever yet seems to have nothing to show for it. He is here to disparage those that have actually posted something this decade.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JBJ claims to have been writing forever yet seems to have nothing to show for it. He is here to disparage those that have actually posted something this decade.

What I write or dont write has nuthin to do with the quality of your efforts. I'm not a cow but I know the difference tween good beef and bad beef. I dont need to be a cow to have an informed opinion.

Your writing blows and you dont have to take my word for it.

 

[bronzeage]

JBJ claims to have been writing forever yet seems to have nothing to show for it. He is here to disparage those that have actually posted something this decade.

Isn't he cute. Him and Faulkner used to get drunk and make fun of Fitzgerald.

Changing POV is a matter of style. If the voice is 3rd person knows everything, be consistent. Start a new paragraph with a sentence which tells the reader the view has shifted to another character. Instead of "A cat jumped on the ledge," use "Michael saw a cat jump on the ledge." The reader will assume every thing which follows will be from Michael's POV.

The POV in dialog shifts every time a person speaks and we handle that all the time.

Shifting change of view in a 1st person story is a very different thing. It's a cute trick, but is really two parallel stories. Again, the reader needs some kind of clue as to who is speaking. It's not difficult to do, but can be very annoying to read.

 

[PennLady]

You do have to be careful with the switching. I reread my earlier stories, like Make a Wish, and I just cringe b/c I am all over the place with POV. Just in the opening scene, I have a nurse, the woman she's talking to and the doctor. If/when I revise, I'll likely keep it to just the woman. For one thing, it'd be smoother and for another, the nurse and the doctor never crop up again.

I was reading a book about writing (Self-editing for Fiction Writers, I think) and they gave an example of 3d person omniscient -- which is what I did, I think, without quite meaning to -- and I think the example was from Larry McMurtry. Anyway, it was pointed out that many people may find it confusing or not like it.

For writing, I prefer to stay with one character for a bit and then switch if necessary. But oh those early stories...

 

[lovecraft68]

What I write or dont write has nuthin to do with the quality of your efforts. I'm not a cow but I know the difference tween good beef and bad beef. I dont need to be a cow to have an informed opinion.

Your writing blows and you dont have to take my word for it.

Apparently JB what you "dont" know is that the word "dont" has one of those clever little apostrophe thingies. You know as in "don't"

And unfortunately for the rest of us you "dont" have to be an author on lit to post here or none of us would have to deal with your senile ramblings.

 

[lovecraft68]

Isn't he cute. Him and Faulkner used to get drunk and make fun of Fitzgerald.

Changing POV is a matter of style. If the voice is 3rd person knows everything, be consistent. Start a new paragraph with a sentence which tells the reader the view has shifted to another character. Instead of "A cat jumped on the ledge," use "Michael saw a cat jump on the ledge." The reader will assume every thing which follows will be from Michael's POV.

The POV in dialog shifts every time a person speaks and we handle that all the time.

Shifting change of view in a 1st person story is a very different thing. It's a cute trick, but is really two parallel stories. Again, the reader needs some kind of clue as to who is speaking. It's not difficult to do, but can be very annoying to read.

That is a very interesting point on the POV switching in the dialogue. I never looked at it that way. Thanks for the advice.