Switched at birth?

[Calamity Jane]

A friend of mine bought a horse three years ago. Paid an insane amount of money for a black Andalusian stud colt. Black Andalusians are VERY rare, so just the color of the horse increases it's value as both a sport horse and as a stud.

The colt has been getting more and more white hairs as he matures, which the breeders said is referred to as 'frosting' and doesn't change the fact that, genetically, he's a black horse.

Well, the horse has developed dapples... something black horses just don't have. So, the owners pulled some hairs and had DNA testing done.

Turns out that the horse they purchased, is a black Andalusian. The horse that was delivered to them is a grey Andalusain. They're holding the papers for the wrong horse. They've spent three years training the wrong horse. They have the wrong horse insured for over $30,000. The farm he was purchased from claims it was an honest mistake, and they've offered to track down the 'right' horse through the registry, and make a switch if the current owners of THAT horse are willing. My friends want to keep the horse that they've become attached to, and have spent so much time training. But, they paid about $7,000 for the horse's color alone. Color that this horse doesn't possess.

What would you do if you'd paid $20,000 for a specific animal, only to find out that you'd been sent the wrong one?

 

[Kitte]

Call a lawyer plain and simple with the goal of having them refund the difference of what should have been paid for a Grey.

I can understand them wanting to keep the horse they have grown attached to and have spent hours training.

 

[Tyrael]

I think they should take responsibility for screwing up the deal instead of trying to pass the buck to the family that has the horse now.

It may be an honest mistake but that doesn't exempt them from delivering what was promised.

 

[Ishmael]

Litigation time. Big time.

Horses are livestock, not pets. What would the loss in stud value be for a finished horse???

I think we're talking several hundred thousand in damages here. Perhaps in the millions.

This is not to be sneezed at or trivialized. There is so much fraud in that business as it is.

I would also DEMAND to know who has the 'black' and how much they payed for it? Were two blacks sold perhaps?????

If they can afford to blow that kind of money on an unfinished horse, they can damn sure afford a very good attorney.

Ishmael

 

[Calamity Jane]

I think they should take responsibility for screwing up the deal instead of trying to pass the buck to the family that has the horse now.

It may be an honest mistake but that doesn't exempt them from delivering what was promised.

That's true. What my friends would like to see happen is swapping papers so they can insure the right horse, and having the farm deliver to them another colt, this time a black one, free.

There are other issues here too. The horse my friends have has been bred to several mares. His stud fee is rather high because he's (supposed to be) a black, and these people paid it expecting to breed to a black horse. When the colts are born next spring, they're not going to be black horses. They could sue. His insurance policy is 'fraudulent' because the name on the papers won't match the DNA sample that the insurance company would require if anything happened to the horse.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Litigation time. Big time.

Horses are livestock, not pets. What would the loss in stud value be for a finished horse???

I think we're talking several hundred thousand in damages here. Perhaps in the millions.

This is not to be sneezed at or trivialized. There is so much fraud in that business as it is.

I would also DEMAND to know who has the 'black' and how much they payed for it? Were two blacks sold perhaps?????

If they can afford to blow that kind of money on an unfinished horse, they can damn sure afford a very good attorney.

Ishmael

The black is currently owned by a consortium (is that the right word?) in CA. They've actually offered to swap horses. The thing is, the black has already been competed pretty hard at a young age, so his longterm soundness is now a question. A swap isn't an option. My friends have paid around $12,000 in training alone, not to mention the original cost of the horse, feed, vet bills, stabling and the DNA tests to discover he's the wrong horse.

Yes, they can afford an attorney, and yes, I believe they've retained one. Would have been my fist move too, and my horses are worth but a fraction of what this one is.

 

[Tyrael]

That's true. What my friends would like to see happen is swapping papers so they can insure the right horse, and having the farm deliver to them another colt, this time a black one, free.

There are other issues here too. The horse my friends have has been bred to several mares. His stud fee is rather high because he's (supposed to be) a black, and these people paid it expecting to breed to a black horse. When the colts are born next spring, they're not going to be black horses. They could sue. His insurance policy is 'fraudulent' because the name on the papers won't match the DNA sample that the insurance company would require if anything happened to the horse.

The plot thickens....Oh yes, those other people are going to be quite annoyed when they don't have the black horses they paid for.

But, wouldn't you think that this would also be the fault of the people who delivered the grey horse and told your friends it was the black one?

Your friends truly believed it was a black horse so I can't see how they would be guilty of anything except trusting the company that sold them the horse.

 

[Ishmael]

The plot thickens....Oh yes, those other people are going to be quite annoyed when they don't have the black horses they paid for.

But, wouldn't you think that this would also be the fault of the people who delivered the grey horse and told your friends it was the black one?

Your friends truly believed it was a black horse so I can't see how they would be guilty of anything except trusting the company that sold them the horse.

Quite simply they are quilty of fraud Tyreal. This is big business and big money. Most people don't realize how much money.

If the original breeder/seller is NOT sued by the owners of the 'bogus black', they themselves could very likely find themselves on the receiving end of multiple lawsuits.

The first rule in the horse business is that the seller is lying. About EVERYTHING. Not until the veternary experts have put their stamp of approval on an animal do you break out the check book. Ever. If you are buying the 'breeding' this includes DNA testing as part of the sales contract.

Your friends are in a real mess PCG.

Ishmael

 

[Tyrael]

Quite simply they are quilty of fraud Tyreal. This is big business and big money. Most people don't realize how much money.

If the original breeder/seller is NOT sued by the owners of the 'bogus black', they themselves could very likely find themselves on the receiving end of multiple lawsuits.

The first rule in the horse business is that the seller is lying. About EVERYTHING. Not until the veternary experts have put their stamp of approval on an animal do you break out the check book. Ever. If you are buying the 'breeding' this includes DNA testing as part of the sales contract.

Your friends are in a real mess PCG.

Ishmael

Whatever happened to people trying to settle their differences themselves instead of running to court to sue everyone they possibly can?

If the people who paid to have their horses bred with the "black" horse bother to talk to the breeders they would learn that they weren't tryin to screw them over.

As for the dealers, they pretty much aren't going to do anything saying that if you want to get the horse you paid for you have to hope the family we sent it to wants to give it up.

Sure corruption is around, but not everyone is out to fuck someone over.

More questions to ask is how much business has pcg's friends bought from these dealers in the past?

A person might get the vet's seal of approval for a horse bought from someone they don't know, but would anyone continue to test after they've dealt with someone for a long period of time?

 

[Ishmael]

Whatever happened to people trying to settle their differences themselves instead of running to court to sue everyone they possibly can?

If the people who paid to have their horses bred with the "black" horse bother to talk to the breeders they would learn that they weren't tryin to screw them over.

As for the dealers, they pretty much aren't going to do anything saying that if you want to get the horse you paid for you have to hope the family we sent it to wants to give it up.

Sure corruption is around, but not everyone is out to fuck someone over.

More questions to ask is how much business has pcg's friends bought from these dealers in the past?

A person might get the vet's seal of approval for a horse bought from someone they don't know, but would anyone continue to test after they've dealt with someone for a long period of time?

This is business, the difference between a 'black' and a grey can amount to a million dollars or more over the lifetime of the horse. You don't have friends when that kind of money is on the table.

If it was an honest mistake on all parties parts, then it will get sorted out.

I still want to know if the California group was sold a gray or a 'black'. That is the difference between fraud and mistakes. And it could very well take a court to determine that.

As far as long time dealings go. No exceptions, now when that kind of money is on the line.

Ishmael

 

[Tyrael]

This is business, the difference between a 'black' and a grey can amount to a million dollars or more over the lifetime of the horse. You don't have friends when that kind of money is on the table.

If it was an honest mistake on all parties parts, then it will get sorted out.

I still want to know if the California group was sold a gray or a 'black'. That is the difference between fraud and mistakes. And it could very well take a court to determine that.

As far as long time dealings go. No exceptions, now when that kind of money is on the line.

Ishmael

That whole lifetime of the horse irks me.

The future can't be predicted.

Who's to say the horse could produce offspring that are black?

Is the gene for color recessive or dominant?

Who's to say the horse wouldn't be stolen?

Can't just assume things will happen in life, and to be paid for things that might happen is not reasonable.

 

[Ishmael]

That whole lifetime of the horse irks me.

The future can't be predicted.

Who's to say the horse could produce offspring that are black?

Is the gene for color recessive or dominant?

Who's to say the horse wouldn't be stolen?

Can't just assume things will happen in life, and to be paid for things that might happen is not reasonable.

*edited to add my answer. Damn buttons.*

All of that is true. But it is NOT the way the courts look at it.

As for the breeding, the owners of the mare pay the fee for a CHANCE for a 'black'. Not the guarantee. No 'black', no chance.

If the horse is stolen, back to the insurance. In the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a finished breeder. Horse dies, go back to the insurance.

Horses have average lifetimes just like humans do. You are going to die too Tyreal. Sooner or later. If you are an American male, statistically you'll live to be 73. You could be hit by lightening and killed as I type this though.

Ishmael

 

[lavender]

 

[Hamletmaschine]

I love it when you talk that way. "Overly litigious." Say it again.

 

[lavender]

 

[Calamity Jane]

This is business, the difference between a 'black' and a grey can amount to a million dollars or more over the lifetime of the horse. You don't have friends when that kind of money is on the table.

If it was an honest mistake on all parties parts, then it will get sorted out.

I still want to know if the California group was sold a gray or a 'black'. That is the difference between fraud and mistakes. And it could very well take a court to determine that.

As far as long time dealings go. No exceptions, now when that kind of money is on the line.

Ishmael

The CA group was sold a grey. Here's what happened, as near as we can figure out...

Some genetic back ground...

There is a difference between a horse that is black colored and a horse that is black genetically. A genetically black horse when bred to another gentically black horse will ALWAYS produce black. Some gentically black horses don't appear to be black at all, and some black colored horses don't throw that gene. (Breeding for color is so much fun! )

My friends, K and M, bought a horse named Pharoah. They paid for him, had him vet checked, including DNA, and waited til he was weaned to have him shipped to Missouri.

The horse arrived, black as promised, with registry papers stating that he was Pharoah. (Gray horses are often born black, and 'go gray' later)

Pharoah began getting white hairs. K did some research, and discovered that a genetically black horse will occasionally have 'frosting', or white hairs in his coat. Reasonable, all three of my black horses have a few white hairs mixed in, especially in the summer.

Pharoah developed definite dapples, again, something blacks just don't have.

K had DNA run on Pharoah to try and find out what was going on.

The Andalusian registry is very well maintained, and very monitored. All registered Andalusions have a DNA sample at the registry, and all of them can be traced through it. So, 'Pharoah's' sample was sent to the registry, cross referenced with the one on file for him, and it came back as a non match.

Pharoah is actually Diety.

The real Pharoah, the black one, was sold to a farm in France. Only, the people in France thought they were buying Diety, the grey.

Eventually, the real Pharoah, was sold to the consotium in CA, who also thought they were buying a grey Andalusian stud named Diety.

K called the farm that he bought the horse from, and sent several registered letters to them. He was hitting a stone wall, and as this is a very reputable breeder of Andalusians, he was shocked that he was getting no replies.

Last month, K found out that his calls and letters had been intercepted by the barn manager (who made the original mistake) and the owner of the farm was unaware of the situation.

Once the owner found out, she offered to try and negotiate the switch. The offer was refused, because of the reasons stated above... soundness, investment, etc.

They still want a black, without having to give up the gray that they've got a huge investment in. The consortium wants the gray that they purchased (his bloodlines make him almost as valuable as he would be if he was black), without losing the black they've ended up with.

 

[Weevil]

What would you do if you'd paid $20,000 for a specific animal, only to find out that you'd been sent the wrong one?

Hunt down the bastards that sold me the wrong animal and beat them with a bag of oranges.

 

[Myrrdin]

Did they view the horse before they bought it? How did they not notice that a different horse had been delivered? Aren't horses individually numbered by tattoo, or is that just racehorses?

 

[RawHumor]

Re: Re: Switched at birth?

Hunt down the bastards that sold me the wrong animal and beat them with a bag of oranges.

LMAO!

I gotta say - even though you regularly kick my ass in political debats, I've missed your sense of humor.

 

[Weevil]

Re: Re: Re: Switched at birth?

LMAO!

I gotta say - even though you regularly kick my ass in political debats,

Now, a debat, that's where they take off his mask revealing him to be Bruce Wayne, right?

I don't know how political that is.

 

[RawHumor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Switched at birth?

Now, a debat, that's where they take off his mask revealing him to be Bruce Wayne, right?

I don't know how political that is.

Fuckin typos. Butt-munch, learn to take a compliment.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

What do I get in return?





Overly litigious. Overly litigious. Overly litigious.

Whew! Best cybering I've ever had.


I gave you Emma, what else do you want?

 

[lavender]

 

[Calamity Jane]

That whole lifetime of the horse irks me.

The future can't be predicted.


Who's to say the horse could produce offspring that are black?

It CAN be predicted, through genetics. I answered this in my post quoting Ishmael, but look at it this way. i have three black horses. Only one of them is a 'true black'. If I breed her to a horse who isn't a 'true black', I'll get a horse that MAY be black, or a horse that is sorrel (brownish orange) or a horse that is bay (brown with a black mane and tail). But, if I breed her to a 'true black', I'm getting a black colt.

Who's to say the horse wouldn't be stolen?

If he's stolen, then an insurance claim is filed, same deal if he keels over, or has to be gelded due to illness or injury. BUT, here's the problem. Insurance companies want DNA samples when you file the claim, to combat fraud. If K filed an insurance claim on Pharoah, but sent in Diety's DNA, he's committing fraud.

 

[lavender]