Supporting the Troops!

[JackLuis]

The Tragedy of the American Military

The American public and its political leadership will do anything for the military except take it seriously. The result is a chickenhawk nation in which careless spending and strategic folly combine to lure America into endless wars it can’t win.

What has our "All Volunteer Armed Forces" become? How has this change effected our view of the Military? It's a complex question that this article tries to answer.

 

[RUlookingup]

The Tragedy of the American Military



What has our "All Volunteer Armed Forces" become? How has this change effected our view of the Military? It's a complex question that this article tries to answer.

The Atlantic? Has to be a load of horseshit.

 

[JackLuis]

The Atlantic? Has to be a load of horseshit.

Not to your taste then, maybe Rethuglican Horseshit Daily would be better for you?

 

[RUlookingup]

Not to your taste then, maybe Rethuglican Horseshit Daily would be better for you?

Atlantic are a bunch of liars. Little in the way of fact checking. Huffington Post type writing.

 

[JackLuis]

Atlantic are a bunch of liars. Little in the way of fact checking. Huffington Post type writing.

So, you didn't read the article? What's wrong words too big? Beyond your 30 second attention span?

 

[oggbashan]

Things haven't changed.

Kipling's Poem of 1892 was about British Soldiers, but it is still true for the troops who are asked to do UN and NATO's dirty work around the world.

Tommy

I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

 

[Hypoxia]

"It's always the old who lead us to the wars
It's always the young who fall
Now look at all we've won with a saber and a gun
Tell me, is it worth it all?"
--Phil Ochs

 

[JackLuis]

Well I see no one read the article which articulates the concept that our military has degraded itself into a pile a smarmy yes men who will not take a stand on principle if it is not first approved by the Higher ups. So everybody is more worried about his evaluations and just keeps his boot clean and his uniform pressed to curry favor even if he is totally incompetent at his assignment. If he follows orders and asks no questions he will be promoted and everyone is happy, except the taxpayers, who really don't matter.
And Oh by the way, what happened to the 2 Billion, (or was it 20 billion?) dollars the Pentagon couldn't account for on 9-10-2001? Rummy was apologetic about that until the next day and no one ever heard another word about it.

SO while West Point may spout "Duty, Honor, Country" the real fact is it's Corruption, Deception and the Revolving Door at the heart of the Pentagon, while "the Troops" are underpaid, over equipped with useless weapons systems like the F-22 and F-35, the M-16/Car-4 and too many M1a1 Abrams tanks, to name a few.

Nothing too serious, a few hundred billion a year and a meat grinder for the troops in Afghanistan to keep the chain of command filled with "Hero Officers."

 

[oggbashan]

Frederick Pohl's The Wizards of Pung's Corner (published in 1959) was a satire on US Army organisation and management. A high tech army is defeated by farmers with shotguns because the army's equipment complexity and rules of combat make it impossible for the soldiers to fight.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I read the entire article, twas excellent long-form reading.

It does a lot towards explaining the current fetishization of today's armed forces.

The last third of the article, the part about the perpetual military-industrial complex, sounds a lot like our own Botany Boy.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I read the entire article, twas excellent long-form reading.

It does a lot towards explaining the current fetishization of today's armed forces.

The last third of the article, the part about the perpetual military-industrial complex, sounds a lot like our own Botany Boy.

?

Whuddya mean?

 

[RobDownSouth]

?

Whuddya mean?

The perpetuation of continual ground-conflict wars as a means to fund military arms suppliers.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Well I see no one read the article which articulates the concept that our military has degraded itself into a pile a smarmy yes men who will not take a stand on principle if it is not first approved by the Higher ups. So everybody is more worried about his evaluations and just keeps his boot clean and his uniform pressed to curry favor even if he is totally incompetent at his assignment. If he follows orders and asks no questions he will be promoted and everyone is happy, except the taxpayers, who really don't matter.
And Oh by the way, what happened to the 2 Billion, (or was it 20 billion?) dollars the Pentagon couldn't account for on 9-10-2001? Rummy was apologetic about that until the next day and no one ever heard another word about it.

SO while West Point may spout "Duty, Honor, Country" the real fact is it's Corruption, Deception and the Revolving Door at the heart of the Pentagon, while "the Troops" are underpaid, over equipped with useless weapons systems like the F-22 and F-35, the M-16/Car-4 and too many M1a1 Abrams tanks, to name a few.

Nothing too serious, a few hundred billion a year and a meat grinder for the troops in Afghanistan to keep the chain of command filled with "Hero Officers."

This sort of thing is common amongst peace time armies. This so-called war on terrorism does not make the US army a war-time one. While any casualties are not nice, standard military thinking has casualty rates of as high as 20% as acceptable. Current rates are not even 10%. Hardly meat grinder rates.

No conventional army has ever beaten an irregular one with popular support. Dropping 100k conventional troops in a country of goat herders and high mountains looks impressive but does little militarily. A 10k rapid reaction force with SF aspects could accomplish as much. And cost less.

A peace-time army should be stripped to the bare bones. With only a cadre of experienced officers and NCOs with which to form a proper army during times of proper wars.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The perpetuation of continual ground-conflict wars as a means to fund military arms suppliers.

Yea pretty much. It really sank in for me on my 2nd deployment when we spent every day without a specific mission escorting empty Halliburton trucks all over the damn place waiting to get hit by an ambush/IED.... just to burn/bill fuel.

Thought you were taking a dig at me somehow. My mistake.

 

[RobDownSouth]

There was an excellent analysis a few years back (I'll see if I can link to it later) about how Bush's splendid Iraq adventure weakened the American Army officer corps at the field-grade level.

Normally, the first big "weed out" of army officers occurs between Captain (0-3) and Major (0-4). For those that didn't serve, Captain is the highest rank for company-level officers, Major is the bottom rank for battalion/brigade level officers.

In normal cycles of war and peace, a fair number of very good company officers choose to become career military, and the best of the best get promoted to Major.

In cycles of perceived perpetual war (with no end in sight), though, very good company officers tend to become disillusioned with the military and leave the military for good once their commitment is up. This permits marginally qualified captains to claim openings for Major by the process of elimination.

Marginally qualified captains are bad news for companies, but the damage is basically controlled/limited. Marginally qualified majors, however, can inflict proportionally more damage on battalions and brigades, resulting in poorly run large outfits.

At the peak of Bush's pre-emptive folly of a war, promotion to major was essentially "automatic" for almost two years, meaning the bottom 20% of all captains (historically shown the door) were foisted upon the field-grade ranks.

This is bad news for the military. It's only happened once before in American history (during the height of the Vietnam war) and it took almost 20 years to weed out the underperformers back then.

 

[JawnKarTurr]

Wow I want the time back I spent to read this pile of crap....yet another liberal democrat writing for a magazine most people probably don't even read writing the same old anti-military stuff in a new package. Now it's coming from someone who is supposed to be above it all. This has been the change for many from the 1960's crowd. They care about the troops now and it's just the policy makers. Not really because those who serve are still stupid baby killers, but we know people don't like hearing that.


Nobody has been barred from being critical of the military. Quite the contrary Hollywood in recent memory has put out a number of anti-war/mission/military films. Few people have liked them, and when American Sniper for example came out critics were free to pan it. The President couldn't be bothered to attend Kyle's funeral despite the man's last act being trying to help a man struggling with PTSD.

Hilary Clinton has lost little support even though there is little difference in her voting then her Republican peers. In fact when she was reelected like may of her Democrat peers on a clear anti-war vote they paid little attention to the people. They marched on with healthcare and gay marriage. Seems the accountability is only one sided. I still remember Paul Wellstone during this time. He was the real deal. With votes 99 to 1 he stood his ground against both sides. Right or wrong he wasn't going to be pushed and more should follow his example.

A chicken hawk nation. Now that is cute. The USA isn't alone in going to war around the globe or interfering. That's really a progressive trait you see with left leaning nations. Those on the right play into for their own purposes, and then we have wars that are done half-assed. Fight but don't break anything, if you do make sure it's not important. Respect the local culture even if they rape children and repress women. Put your lives at risk rather then maybe harm civilians.

Is the military above criticism, no but we need some intelligent thought behind it. Those who feel no military spending can be justified aren't subjective. We're wasting time on the need for diversity when we should be working on a diverse group of skilled people. Not caring who they are but whether they can do the job. Soldiers are restricted in so many ways, and aren't even allowed to carry weapons on post.

The author managed to find people who didn't like the actions taken and mistakes made. Wow that's difficult, but any large endeavor you'll find people that are critical and knew a better way no matter what the outcome is.

What solutions does the author see as the best route? Add to the bureaucracy and have people discuss things to death. Great, but what about those who are already supposed to be doing that? Many Americans don't know the CIA was actually founded to coordinate an analyze intelligence from other agencies. Sure they ran secret wars, assassinations, and military projects (One liberal here at lit claims to have been involved with one) and kind of did what the were supposed to do but why make them accountable? I mean we couldn't launch the Department of Homeland Security then.

So how about this real accountability. When millions are wasted on failed projects people should be out of their jobs end of story. When it comes to the Veteran's Administration start firing people until the problem is fixed and in the mean time give every veteran a card that guarantees them any care they might need where ever they get it until the issues are resolved.

It's a shame we don't have more farmers in this country. Perhaps we'd be eating better. As to relations with the community people should know who is serving and have an interest. It's hard to make that happen when more people feel the end of American Idol is more traumatic then fighting in Iraq. Many regard relationships with the military as little more then propaganda and others insist on only showing the downside. There are proud veterans and others who think it was a waste of their time and many in between.

Any military intervention needs to be taken serious. People are fight and dying and their sacrifice should not be diminished while learning what could have been done better. During the Blackhawk down incident there was a host of Clinton era policies that cost lives and intelligence ignored during the nation building mission. Some lessons were learned from it, but not enough and heroics were discounted when meaningful changes didn't' occur.

The author kind of get's it in that we need to change mindsets and that is always harder. Fanatics alone shouldn't be the ones carrying about any issue.

 

[BotanyBoy]

There was an excellent analysis a few years back (I'll see if I can link to it later) about how Bush's splendid Iraq adventure weakened the American Army officer corps at the field-grade level.

Normally, the first big "weed out" of army officers occurs between Captain (0-3) and Major (0-4). For those that didn't serve, Captain is the highest rank for company-level officers, Major is the bottom rank for battalion/brigade level officers.

In normal cycles of war and peace, a fair number of very good company officers choose to become career military, and the best of the best get promoted to Major.

In cycles of perceived perpetual war (with no end in sight), though, very good company officers tend to become disillusioned with the military and leave the military for good once their commitment is up. This permits marginally qualified captains to claim openings for Major by the process of elimination.

Marginally qualified captains are bad news for companies, but the damage is basically controlled/limited. Marginally qualified majors, however, can inflict proportionally more damage on battalions and brigades, resulting in poorly run large outfits.

At the peak of Bush's pre-emptive folly of a war, promotion to major was essentially "automatic" for almost two years, meaning the bottom 20% of all captains (historically shown the door) were foisted upon the field-grade ranks.

This is bad news for the military. It's only happened once before in American history (during the height of the Vietnam war) and it took almost 20 years to weed out the underperformers back then.

In the land of snap crackle and pop standards have been in a nose dive through most of the regular line units since 06'-07'....about the time all the hardcore super hooah guys started getting worn out/broken by their 3rd/4th year in combat. By 08 it was shitbag city in all but the elite units. According to a few of my old hooahs who are now E5/6's even better parts of the 18th ABNCORPS are slipping.

Wow I want the time back I spent to read this pile of crap....yet another liberal democrat writing for a magazine most people probably don't even read writing the same old anti-military stuff in a new package.

There is nothing anti military or liberal about being anti corporate welfare. Especially when that corporate welfare is so bloody....being against that just makes you a decent human being.

Soldiers are restricted in so many ways, and aren't even allowed to carry weapons on post.

Liar liar....pants on fire. Shit as a Private I had already carried/operated pretty much every weapon imaginable on post including a number of my own privately owned weapons .

 

[JawnKarTurr]

There is nothing anti military or liberal about being anti corporate welfare. Especially when that corporate welfare is so bloody....being against that just makes you a decent human being.[/QUOTE]



Yes that's why Halliburton got a no bid contract under Clinton. All those policies ended under the current President right? Oh right no. Never mind Blackwater which I believe is on it's third name is still on the government payroll. They're involved in many of the President's favorite programs. Never mind the farm subsidies we continue to put out there while people are starving. Want to cool it with the rhetoric? We need solutions we have enough people only complaining.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yes that's why Halliburton got a no bid contract under Clinton. All those policies ended under the current President right? Oh right no. Never mind Blackwater which I believe is on it's third name is still on the government payroll. They're involved in many of the President's favorite programs. Never mind the farm subsidies we continue to put out there while people are starving.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that not wanting endless welfare wars isn't liburhul or anti military?

Oh right....it doesn't.

Want to cool it with the rhetoric?

No.

Want to cool it with the bullshit deflections?

We need solutions we have enough people only complaining.

Mostly because that evil socialist in the WH destroyed the military by cutting off all that funding and pulling out of Iraq it's a disaster!! The wolf is at the gate, ISIS and Obama is just letting them in because there is nothing left of the military!

That's what the liburhulz are screaming because they want that welfare war right?

It's the liburhul democrats candidates for POTUS that are promising to spend more than ever on the military and go crush ISIS via superior firepower right? Cruz is a Liburhul democrat commie right?

 

[JackLuis]

That is much better.

Having a real conversation about a serious problem that isn't a GB style pissing match is a lot better isn't it?

We could even develop some ideas about how to solve this usurpation of the Mil-Ind complex of our country, like Ike warned us about, maybe? How do we break the hold that the Mil-Ind & Political python has on our policies and budgets?

I don't believe that this is a Left v Right issue. I do believe that it is an issue that should be solved by applying American Principles. Such as making the law apply to everyone and not to just those who have no power.

Or, transitioning our Industrial might to those things that build our strength and people, like education and inclusion.

 

[JawnKarTurr]

Right Corporate welfare is only a problem when someone with an R next to their name is in office I got you. That or you can't understand a simple connection. The rest of your rant is to stupid to even respond too. Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument, and certainly don't make an intelligent response. I doubt you're capable of making one, and your the only one bullshitting here.

 

[JawnKarTurr]

That is much better.

Having a real conversation about a serious problem that isn't a GB style pissing match is a lot better isn't it?

We could even develop some ideas about how to solve this usurpation of the Mil-Ind complex of our country, like Ike warned us about, maybe? How do we break the hold that the Mil-Ind & Political python has on our policies and budgets?

I don't believe that this is a Left v Right issue. I do believe that it is an issue that should be solved by applying American Principles. Such as making the law apply to everyone and not to just those who have no power.

Or, transitioning our Industrial might to those things that build our strength and people, like education and inclusion.

I always like when people say Ike warned us about this...Yes he just kept takes rates high, and he did nothing to stop the growth of the industrial military complex. Hell the star wars program has roots in his administration.

It's easy to understand if you know the history. After WWII the American military was reduced down to almost pre-war levels overnight. Korea was an unpleasant shock, so things had to change.

Like NASA the military can be run better. During the hay days of the program when we landed on the moon NASA was run on an Air Force model and did amazing things. Now it's more corporate and going down hill...mostly from politics. The military is the same, and improvements need to be made. The latest purge won't help though.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Right Corporate welfare is only a problem when someone with an R next to their name is in office I got you.

You apparently don't because I didn't say that, you're just making it up to have something to be mad about.

Probably because out of blind partisanship you're incapable of admitting that the (R)'s have been by far the largest war for welfare cheerleaders for the past 30+ years.

 

[RobDownSouth]

It's easy to understand if you know the history. After WWII the American military was reduced down to almost pre-war levels overnight. Korea was an unpleasant shock, so things had to change.

Active duty numbers:

• American Military 1940 - 458,365
• American Military 1945 - 12,055,884
• American Military 1950 - 1,459,462

Only off by a million troops.

#MathIsHard

 

[JackLuis]

I always like when people say Ike warned us about this...Yes he just kept takes rates high, and he did nothing to stop the growth of the industrial military complex. Hell the star wars program has roots in his administration.

It's easy to understand if you know the history. After WWII the American military was reduced down to almost pre-war levels overnight. Korea was an unpleasant shock, so things had to change.

Like NASA the military can be run better. During the hay days of the program when we landed on the moon NASA was run on an Air Force model and did amazing things. Now it's more corporate and going down hill...mostly from politics. The military is the same, and improvements need to be made. The latest purge won't help though.

There was a purge? Oh you mean when Gen Shinsecki (sie?) said that Iraq would take 200,000 troops to occupy and take decades to civilize and Rummy sidelined him?

History, yes Ike warned us and JFK was considering letting Viet Nam go, but was replaced by LBJ who sent millions of troops to support KBR's (aka Halliburton) profits.