Support the troops?

[Keroin]

Now I realize there are people on here who have served in the military, some who are currently serving, and those who have loved ones who have served or are serving, so I’m going to try and be sensitive and to preface this by saying that my questions aren’t meant to attack anyone. I’m simply curious. I have friends who have served; I have heard the stories and seen the aftermath of their service. But the recent thread started by the fellow supposedly serving in Afghanistan and the responses to him based on his occupation bring up something that often bothers me.

I am very much opposed to war, except as a last resort. I know that sometimes military intervention is necessary, (though not as often as some governments would have us believe), and I respect the men and women who do their part to secure peace in the world with honour and integrity. I understand that the life of a soldier is difficult – from long spells of absolute boredom to times of utter terror. Nevertheless, just because someone is in the military does not mean they automatically get my thanks and respect.

What if the person joined up because they thought they might get the opportunity to kill someone, and that would be cool? There are good soldiers and bad soldiers, good cops and bad cops, good doctors and bad doctors – just because you do an incredibly demanding and difficult job doesn’t mean you’re a good person worthy of blanket admiration and gratitude. I have seen the Wikileaks videos of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan shooting at people without knowing whether they were enemy combatants or not…and clearly loving ‘the hunt’. Should I respect those people?

Also, there are many, many people who “serve” their country who do not get this carte blanc respect despite their selflessness and hard work, and sometimes the risk to life and limb. How about all the volunteers who give up their free time and money to help the less fortunate? How about teachers who have to work with an ever-shrinking school budget and criticism on all sides as they try to educate future generations (sometimes in schools resembling war zones)? How about doctors and nurses who travel to the poorest and most dangerous parts of the world to help the sick and injured? Etc, etc, etc? Why don’t we automatically thank those people the way we do with soldiers?

Also, there’s stuff like this…

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/20/us-nato-summit-veterans-idUSBRE84J0D520120520


What about war resistors? To me, those who oppose an unjust war, who give up their lives to do the right thing, are just as deserving of respect. I live in a part of the world that was a haven for draft dodgers in the 60’s; I’ve heard those stories. They are often heartbreaking.

So, do you agree that those in the military should all, always be given an automatic, respectful thank you? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Netzach]

I lived with what PTSD does to people, and the codes of old-school traditional masculinity. That "real man" shit that this board so venerates.

I saw it destroy a brilliant and funny man, and I bumped up against the endless reserves of silence that boiled with what I'll still never know underneath. I watched it kill him in front of my eyes, and I watched it change common sense in myself and my mother into a vacuum of incredible denial all the way to the last week he was alive. I was 18, there was no "I was young" excuse. I bought his mythmaking and ignored the sounds of vomiting that started every. single. day. as "his weak stomach" not the bottle of wine a night.

My aunts ex, another vet.

They still had respect for the war they were asked to fight, still wanted to characterize any opposition as Jane Fonda. In the closing months of my stepdad's life he was cheerleading us during the gulf war. I remember him telling me that any number of "them" were less than one of "us." He was disgusted with my opposition, I was disgusted with - well - him. I realize there's more to it all based on more information I got after his death. No one knows what he had to do or not do over there, but we do know he got a medical discharge for no physical reason.

This thickens the plot, for me, and most hawk behavior I now interpret as overcompensation lest dear Dad be disappointed. That was what sent his ass over there in the first place - he got busted selling pot, he had always wanted to go to art school but that was for fags, so it was go or go to jail. Dad having been a cop pronounced "no son of mine will ever have an arrest record." It took him a 25 year delay to have to bury his kid, but it was that decision that killed him as sure as any bullet.

Most people on the home front had a brother or boyfriend's ass being shot off, and there weren't any Nazis on the doorstep of London to make it make any sense. Vets do not "own" the story of their wars more than the people who have to see what it does to them, live with what it does to them.

I do believe these things rest upon the conscience of the king, and for us, the king is in the mirror in the final analysis. Supporting the troops, for me, mean stopping the unjustified war, the war that is NOT fought as the only viable option after all else is exhausted or because the stakes are so immense. I wish I was brave and disciplined enough to be a real pacifist.

My highest respects in life have always been for those who oppose war based on having fought in one. Because I really think these are the strongest of people - the people who could do what my stepdad couldn't do, and see outside the prison of the rhetoric and expectations, face the horrifying prospect that what they were asked to do was not necessarily for the common good. It's easy for me to do that in the safety of my first world bubble. It's almost impossible to do it under fire.

 

[Shankara20]

That "real man" shit that this board so venerates.

If I might suggest, "some" on this board so venerate.

Big topic - this is just a bit.

I am a Vietnam era vet, I was in the Navy, served in the Tonkin gulf on aircraft carriers. I was never shot at. I consider myself a vet but not a war vet. I do not speak for others, only myself.

While serving my second tour I hear one pissed off pilot complain to another that they were not getting anywhere enough air time dropping bombs. If they were going to prosper in the service they needed now sorties for their services records. They were in the war to kill people to advance their Navy careers.

Another pilot I know turned in his wings, stopped being pilot, when he got back the photos from his bombing run that showed a successful direct hit on a village. He could not handle killing people.

It appears to me the second pilot was more courageous then the first. And he was very lucky he could walk away from his "killing". For a ground solder under fire I expect there is no "oppps, changed my mind".

I don't know how to address returning combat vets. The country did a crappy job in the '60's and '70's, and many of those had the draft to deal with, so they with with not much choice. Some today went in response to 9/11, some for the promise of economic help with higher education. Some are reluctant to go, some go for bloodsport. Saying "thank you for your service" sounds trite and I am hearing now that some vets find is rather dismissive.

I respect the fact that a few are willing to fight when asked, I just wish we would stop asking. I am a proud member of Veterans for Peace. Not all wars need to be fought.

I guess I "support the troops", I just wish the troops included those who decided we are going to war, or their kids at least.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I got phone calls from recruiters when my son was nearing his 18th birthday, and i always told them-- I would never ask my son to place himself under the command of George Bush. Nor Obama, for that matter.

We cannot trust our leadership to keep us out of unjust and un-needed wars. Who the fuck would put their honor and lives in hands like those?

 

[Keroin]

I respect the fact that a few are willing to fight when asked, I just wish we would stop asking. I am a proud member of Veterans for Peace. Not all wars need to be fought.

Well put, Shank.

Again, I wonder why those who work hard at peace don't get the "thank you for your service"?

How many of the wars and conflicts over the years could have been avoided with better foreign policy, more empathy, less greed, etc? Not all, certainly, but several.

 

[Licia]

War is fucking ugly.

Personal experiences:

We send boys off, and train them to kill. Said boys are frequently poor. The USA was built on the backs and blood of the less fortunate, no doubt. Many of these boys join the military just for the benefit of a college education. A war breaks out, and those boys are shipped off to kill.

Fight or die are their options. Runaway and not only can you be shot but you will find yourself court marshalled. Disgraced.

Some boys do it just to make "dad" proud. Gah! "Dad" needs a fury whipping wooden spoon style!

And yet, still some are driven by the impulse to defend and protect their community.

Netzach's already touched on PTSD.

Indeed, the very essence of what it is to be human is siphoned from the body. Probably, I shouldn't express the visual in my mind right now...*censors*

What I can let out are a few real time memories:

"Gonna go wake him up. He's gotta be hungry for dinner."

Approaching the bed, she smiles at him sleeping.

Her hand reaches out and rests on his arm.

"Babe."

Primal fear unleashed, her boyfriend (at the time) took on the persona of a wounded animal; screams filled the room.

Confused but unafraid, she watched the painful and humiliating event. After he calmed she said, "Time to eat."

*snips*

A girlfriend went because healing is her calling. She's a medic, and I love her to pieces. Two back to back tours in Iraq? She comes home and has a hard time relating to normal society. Horrifying dreams. She drug enemy soliders from the battlefield when the smoke cleared and made them well.

One of her (other) "enemy" patients looked up at her in fear as she wheeled him into his scheduled MRI, "You ... aren't trying to make me better just so you can torture me later, are you?" The statement killed her. When she asked why he would even fantasize a thing his response was disembowlement. "That's what Saddam would do."

So yes, all persons in the military automatically have a measure of my respect because I've been privy to the aftermath of war. The ability to respect a person is not based on one side of their persona for me. Sacrafice is monstrously beautiful to my perception, and people will NEVER be perfect.

 

[Licia]

I got phone calls from recruiters when my son was nearing his 18th birthday, and i always told them-- I would never ask my son to place himself under the command of George Bush. Nor Obama, for that matter.

We cannot trust our leadership to keep us out of unjust and un-needed wars. Who the fuck would put their honor and lives in hands like those?

*claps*

I left these similar thoughts out of my post.

 

[Keroin]

So yes, all persons in the military automatically have a measure of my respect because I've been privy to the aftermath of war. The ability to respect a person is not based on one side of their persona for me. Sacrafice is monstrously beautiful to my perception, and people will NEVER be perfect.

So do you automatically give that measure of respect to other occupations? And do you express it, as so many do with those in the service, with a verbal or written "thank you"?

Just curious. You see, that is the practice that confuses me.

I have a friend suffering from PTSD and depression. She was a psychologist. For years she worked with victims of abuse and trauma, many of her patients were first nations children who had suffered physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. She helped to make them whole but those years of dealing with that level of trauma took their toll. But no one stops and thanks her for her service to our country when they find out what she did for a living. She didn't get rich doing her job, she chose to help those at the bottom of the social barrel, and now she'll likely never work again and struggles daily to have a "normal" life.

See, there's just a gap I can't get my head around.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

As (at least) a third-generation veteran, I honor each and every soldier who serves/d honorably.

As a former teacher, I honor each and every teacher who gives/gave of themselves to bring some measure of knowledge and/or wisdom to their students.

As a citizen, I honor each and every police officer and firefighter who has given or is willing to give his or her life to protect us.

As a human being, I honor each and every person who does whatever is in their power to make this a world we all can live in.

Yes, I support the troops, no matter what their reason for joining the military, as long as they perform their - often undesirable and dangerous - tasks to the best of their ability and with the desire that future generations will *not* have to serve. Unfortunately, given human and political nature, I'm afraid this will never happen.

 

[Keroin]

As (at least) a third-generation veteran, I honor each and every soldier who serves/d honorably.

As a former teacher, I honor each and every teacher who gives/gave of themselves to bring some measure of knowledge and/or wisdom to their students.

As a citizen, I honor each and every police officer and firefighter who has given or is willing to give his or her life to protect us.

As a human being, I honor each and every person who does whatever is in their power to make this a world we all can live in.

Yes, I support the troops, no matter what their reason for joining the military, as long as they perform their - often undesirable and dangerous - tasks to the best of their ability and with the desire that future generations will *not* have to serve. Unfortunately, given human and political nature, I'm afraid this will never happen.

I don't think I need to tell you you're a terrific human being, SW. Or maybe I do?

But I have to pop in a comment here because, while I have seen you post the "thank you for your service" to military folk here, I've never seen you do the same for the other professions you mention.

Yes, you regularly show respect for other people and I know you have a big heart, but that particular "thank you" seems reserved entirely for soldiers. And you're not the only one, not by a long shot. I find it interesting and I don't entirely understand it.

 

[Primalex]

I think it becomes less confusing if you don't mix two different things:
respecting the profession itself and respecting a specific person in this profession

From there on, it basically comes down to the benefit of the doubt.

So there can be professions you respect per se (like soldiers, firefighters, ...), but not necessarily specific persons (like the arsonist firefighter or the murderer soldier).

There can be professions you don't respect (like the con artist), yet you can a specific person (like f.e. Frank William Abagnale).

 

[Primalex]

Yes, you regularly show respect for other people and I know you have a big heart, but that particular "thank you" seems reserved entirely for soldiers. And you're not the only one, not by a long shot. I find it interesting and I don't entirely understand it.

A firefighter (or whoever) has the right to put his own safety over the ones (s)he tries to save. If a firefighter dies, it's an accident (viewed as a profession). But a soldier doesn't have this choice in the first place. A soldier can only refuse very few orders and his own safety is not part of it.

 

[Licia]

So do you automatically give that measure of respect to other occupations? And do you express it, as so many do with those in the service, with a verbal or written "thank you"?

Just curious. You see, that is the practice that confuses me.

I have a friend suffering from PTSD and depression. She was a psychologist. For years she worked with victims of abuse and trauma, many of her patients were first nations children who had suffered physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. She helped to make them whole but those years of dealing with that level of trauma took their toll. But no one stops and thanks her for her service to our country when they find out what she did for a living. She didn't get rich doing her job, she chose to help those at the bottom of the social barrel, and now she'll likely never work again and struggles daily to have a "normal" life.

See, there's just a gap I can't get my head around.

Keroin, I understand. I think.

Absolutely the peace-makers get my respect, blanket style.

Growing up and subjected to forced traditionalism? I lived the life of thankless for many, many years. Women in my local community still suffer..just as the men do. Me? The entire disharmony makes me ill. I could make the choice to ignore it all.

I don't want to ignore it.

I don't want my children growing up only to be condemmed to a predefined war-- battlelines already drawn.

I want the war to stop.

People need to get real about being human.

I've chosen to fight back with every single tool in my ant box, and a single ripple may be all it takes.

So with that out of the way...

Thank you for your service, Miss Psychologist

 

[midwestyankee]

I abhor the phrase "support the troops." While I recognize that for many people, maybe even most, the sentiment of supporting one's country's men and women in uniform is taken seriously, at least here in the U.S. the phrase has its origin in cynical manipulation by the Bush administration leading up to their invasion of Iraq in 2003. The unspoken subtext of "support the troops" was "and in so doing, support our government." That was a time when it seemed fashionable to question the patriotism of anyone who questioned the administration and this phrase was used to gin up that kind of blind and unquestioning support. I despised that attitude then and I despise it now.

 

[intothewoods]

My highest respects in life have always been for those who oppose war based on having fought in one. Because I really think these are the strongest of people - the people who could do what my stepdad couldn't do, and see outside the prison of the rhetoric and expectations, face the horrifying prospect that what they were asked to do was not necessarily for the common good. It's easy for me to do that in the safety of my first world bubble. It's almost impossible to do it under fire.

So true, and really anyone who can step outside of their circumstances and see a different perspective is very impressive to me.

Keroin, good question, complicated subject. I think the reason people go out of their way to thank vets is because of Vietnam and the way in which their homecoming was handled.

I feel like it's not at all surprising that we ask people to kill for our country and then they snap and go on a rampage, or commit suicide or act like assholes and drug addicts for the rest of their lives. I would not want to do what they do, but I also couldn't.

 

[Keroin]

I think the reason people go out of their way to thank vets is because of Vietnam and the way in which their homecoming was handled.

This is an interesting point you raise. Maybe a bit of overcompensation going on?

What's also interesting to me is the notion of informed choice. Pre-Vietnam, before people questioned war, blind patriotism and such, in great numbers, and before the reality/horror of war came to us via TV, I can see how many people joined up with no real, clear idea of what they were getting into.

Now? It would be hard to believe that the majority of people who join the military have illusions about what they may be asked to do, or the dangers they face, or what their lives might look like after their work is done. So there is informed choice now - to a certain degree. Granted, when you're poor and the military looks like your only way out, well, that's not much of a choice.

(Man, wouldn't it be great if free post-secondary education was offered to those who served their country on other ways?)

So, perhaps there is no choice about what you do once you're in the military, but there is choice before you enter. Which, IMO, is not much different than the firefighter that runs into the burning building instead of saving his/her own hide. And, actually, I wonder if those who do have the choice to save themselves and opt to put the lives of others ahead of their own are more deserving of respect?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I don't think I need to tell you you're a terrific human being, SW. Or maybe I do?

But I have to pop in a comment here because, while I have seen you post the "thank you for your service" to military folk here, I've never seen you do the same for the other professions you mention.

Yes, you regularly show respect for other people and I know you have a big heart, but that particular "thank you" seems reserved entirely for soldiers. And you're not the only one, not by a long shot. I find it interesting and I don't entirely understand it.

I think I may have, on occasion, thanked (or sympathized, or commiserated with) a couple of someones who identified as teachers; OTOH, I probably warned some who were considering teaching as a profession away from it It has gotten to be as thankless a profession as any I can think of with the exceptions of lawyer, journalist (broadcast or print), or politician.

As for the others I mentioned (police officers, firefighters, et al), I don't recall many people here identifying themselves as being in those professions, so never got the opportunity?

I abhor the phrase "support the troops." While I recognize that for many people, maybe even most, the sentiment of supporting one's country's men and women in uniform is taken seriously, at least here in the U.S. the phrase has its origin in cynical manipulation by the Bush administration leading up to their invasion of Iraq in 2003. The unspoken subtext of "support the troops" was "and in so doing, support our government." That was a time when it seemed fashionable to question the patriotism of anyone who questioned the administration and this phrase was used to gin up that kind of blind and unquestioning support. I despised that attitude then and I despise it now.

Yeahhh, that was something I meant to mention when I first thought of responding to this thread. I support the troops, though almost never the wars or the people who made them happen. My mindset on the soldiery is that most of them serve as soldiers in the hope that no one will ever have to do it again.

 

[ControlandDom]

And, actually, I wonder if those who do have the choice to save themselves and opt to put the lives of others ahead of their own are more deserving of respect?

Are you not including the troops in this?

And it seems like you just have a problem with people blindly thanking people who kill other people.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So do you automatically give that measure of respect to other occupations? And do you express it, as so many do with those in the service, with a verbal or written "thank you"?

Just curious. You see, that is the practice that confuses me.

I have a friend suffering from PTSD and depression. She was a psychologist. For years she worked with victims of abuse and trauma, many of her patients were first nations children who had suffered physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. She helped to make them whole but those years of dealing with that level of trauma took their toll. But no one stops and thanks her for her service to our country when they find out what she did for a living. She didn't get rich doing her job, she chose to help those at the bottom of the social barrel, and now she'll likely never work again and struggles daily to have a "normal" life.

See, there's just a gap I can't get my head around.

I do, every time.

because I am aware.

Help people become aware.

 

[intothewoods]

This is an interesting point you raise. Maybe a bit of overcompensation going on?

What's also interesting to me is the notion of informed choice. Pre-Vietnam, before people questioned war, blind patriotism and such, in great numbers, and before the reality/horror of war came to us via TV, I can see how many people joined up with no real, clear idea of what they were getting into.

Now? It would be hard to believe that the majority of people who join the military have illusions about what they may be asked to do, or the dangers they face, or what their lives might look like after their work is done. So there is informed choice now - to a certain degree. Granted, when you're poor and the military looks like your only way out, well, that's not much of a choice.

(Man, wouldn't it be great if free post-secondary education was offered to those who served their country on other ways?)

So, perhaps there is no choice about what you do once you're in the military, but there is choice before you enter. Which, IMO, is not much different than the firefighter that runs into the burning building instead of saving his/her own hide. And, actually, I wonder if those who do have the choice to save themselves and opt to put the lives of others ahead of their own are more deserving of respect?

Yeah, I mean, we have declining numbers in the military for a reason. On the other hand, it's possible to avoid descriptions and pictures of the real ugliness of war. And no matter what we see on video/TV/film, it's not the same as doing it. And many believe for various reasons that it's an honor and their duty to serve.

All in all, I just have a lot of sympathy for military members. And as much as I believe in pacifism, I'm not sure how realistic it is for a country.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Good thread and subject Keroin. I also was put off by the continuous thanking on the thread in question and was not interested in being part of it. As you said, how do we know what type of person he is, how do we know he does his job well, why does wearing a uniform automatically make him one of the good guys?

I am not in favour of war, nor glorifying it, and a big part of that comes from my father who did active service fighting the Japanese and to the day he died did not like speaking about it, nor feel it was this wonderful duty he had performed despite more than a few feeling they owed him their lives. He hated the glorification of war which has grown in recent times. There are times in history when it is unavoidable, but there are also a lot of times when it is more about money and/or minding someone else's business because they choose to live differently and that can not be tolerated in the opinion of the governments who choose to make it their business.

I have my own theories on why some choose to thank simply because someone is in the armed services, and feel it goes a lot deeper than what it seems on the surface, though I am not sure most realize it.

Catalina

 

[Keroin]

Are you not including the troops in this?

A point was made that the difference between the military and other professions is that soldiers do not have the choice when they face a life or death scenario - they must follow orders. So I raise the question of which is more noble - risking your life when you have no other option, or risking your life when you can choose not to.

And it seems like you just have a problem with people blindly thanking people who kill other people.

Nope, not at all. I am just curious to know why one group of people in society get an automatic verbal or written thank you for the service they do their country, when all the others who serve in other ways don't. And I'm not suggesting that others don't get thanked for their service, or that they aren't respected, only that the automatic thank you is reserved exclusively for the military.

I have never, ever, not on this board nor anywhere else, witnessed a "thank you for your service to our country" for any other profession. Just an observation.

 

[ControlandDom]

A point was made that the difference between the military and other professions is that soldiers do not have the choice when they face a life or death scenario - they must follow orders. So I raise the question of which is more noble - risking your life when you have no other option, or risking your life when you can choose not to.

But they have the choice not to join the military in the first place. Is it more noble to risk your life in the moment (running into a burning building) or knowing that at some point in the future it is almost 100% guaranteed you will be risking your life and limb and still saying 'I'll do it'?

The fireman/cop/whatever has no idea if they will ever have to put their life on the line at some point in their service. A solider does.

Nope, not at all. I am just curious to know why one group of people in society get an automatic verbal or written thank you for the service they do their country, when all the others who serve in other ways don't. And I'm not suggesting that others don't get thanked for their service, or that they aren't respected, only that the automatic thank you is reserved exclusively for the military.

I have never, ever, not on this board nor anywhere else, witnessed a "thank you for your service to our country" for any other profession. Just an observation.

You said it yourself. A teacher is not serving their country. They are serving their community. The community should thank them. (parents, students, local politicians, etc)

A soldier is serving their country. They are there in service of EVERYONE in said country. That is why they get a blanket thank you from everyone.

 

[Cattypuss]

I volunteer on a suicide hotline. Only this evening I had a call from an ex-soldier who was suffering mental agonies, many years after a traumatic event in his service.

What got me was that he kept going on about how being a soldier is an honourable thing.

Now let me make it clear that I respected this man and everything he was going through. I also happened to like him.

But I don't get why we venerate soldiers. They are doing a job and they get paid well for it and they get fantastic pensions (well they do in the UK anyway). Yes, the job can be dirty and extremely dangerous and also very traumatic. But the days of conscription are over - everyone in the military is there because they CHOSE it as a career.

Conscription? Whole different ball game. WHOLE different ball game.

But people who choose to work in the military? As a pacifist, I am not about to tell them their career choice is an honourable one or that they deserve my respect for it. They, individually, may deserve my respect for a zillion reasons - but their career choice will not be one of those reasons.

Just my view.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Not sure if I want to get into this discussion or not. Coming to this thread will probably just wickedly piss me off