Suggesting Threesome (as the third)

[WCHSP]

So, two of my friends are in an open relationship. Prior to this relationship, he and I had many conversations in which we established our mutual disdain for "rules" around with whom it is or isn't appropriate to have sex. Among other things, we agreed, for instance, that there's nothing wrong with incest, and that the problem with cheating isn't that you're doing something wrong, but rather that you're made to think that it's something wrong. I say this just to establish the "I really doubt he'd be offended" side.

Now he's dating this woman who I'd spent a little time with before (I know her from class), but we were never that close... now that they're together we've spent a lot more time together, went swimming last night (just the two of us), etc. She and I talked about sexual inhibitions and how they're pointless, she has a general "why not" approach about things. I find her very hard to approach sexually because her body language is unfamiliar to me, but she's beautiful, and has given nothing but positive signals.

I, meanwhile, got out of a toxic long term relationship not that long ago. I was monogamous (minus one or two slight indiscretions) for over four years, and now I'm kind of rediscovering myself as an independent sexual entity. Still haven't had sex with anyone since I left my ex, though... and, honestly, it's about damn time.

Here's where it gets steamy: the three of us are going out of town in a couple days to attend a lecture, after which we'll sleep at the house of a friend of his. Now, as a single and horny guy who's going to be spending a day (and night) with an open couple, both members of which I've established at least a theoretical lack of inhibitions with... there are a few places to which my mind immediately jumps. First there's "I totally need to be fucking this woman." Then there's "He'll be there too... yeah, I'd fuck him, why not?"

but... I'm the third. Normal threesome etiquette to my understanding is that the third needs to be invited, would be too forward (or something) to make the suggestion myself. I honestly have no idea, haven't ever tried before.

Got any advice? I'm thinking of just suggesting we all get naked, if there's ever a reasonable opportunity (we'll be staying in someone's house, so possibly not. Also it'll be cold). That I know I could suggest without breaking too many rules... he and I have already been naked around each other, and she and I were talking last night about how our society has fucked up ideas around clothing and we should be naked more often. Figure it'd be a good way to maybe steer things in a certain direction...

 

[Zoots_owner]

My only advice would be that, unless a threesome happens spontaneously, it's usually best (assuming a MFM or FMF threesome) for the two of the same gender to talk things over first. If that goes well - there's no trace of jealousy or other bad feelings, and he thinks they'd both like it - then it's time to run the idea by her, in one way or another. And do be tactful and work your way to the subject gradually, looking for warning signs along the way... you don't want to mess up your friendship by assuming things about his open-mindedness (or hers) which may not be 100% correct.

One warning sign I see is his statement (if you're quoting him accurately) about cheating not being wrong. That is not in the spirit of either most of the poly community or the swinger community, since most of both of those groups believe that everything should be open and honest. Neither group calls it "cheating" if everyone knows what's going on and is okay with it.

So I'd say to proceed with at least a modicum of caution, and see what his thoughts are. Just because he sounds willing to screw around on her, doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't care if she does the same. ;-)

 

[subwannabe]

Zoot had good advice

 

[Eilan]

Normal threesome etiquette to my understanding is that the third needs to be invited, would be too forward (or something) to make the suggestion myself. I honestly have no idea, haven't ever tried before.

I can only speak for my husband and me and our experience with looking for threesome (MFM/MMF) partners: if we didn't invite someone to join us, then we (I had final say/veto power) weren't interested. Other couples' mileage may vary, obviously.

One warning sign I see is his statement (if you're quoting him accurately) about cheating not being wrong. That is not in the spirit of either most of the poly community or the swinger community, since most of both of those groups believe that everything should be open and honest. Neither group calls it "cheating" if everyone knows what's going on and is okay with it.

Very good point.

 

[WCHSP]

Well, he's also made the statement that they're "in an open relationship." If he slept with someone else at this point, it wouldn't be cheating, and neither of them would consider it cheating. Same if she did. Actually, they're together due to cheating... she was in a relationship that wasn't open, slept with him, ended up leaving the guy she'd been "monogamous" with.

 

[SweetErika]

I agree with talking to him and, if he seems interested, he can pose the idea to her and they can discuss whatever they might need to discuss as a couple before coming back to you with an answer.

Also, do you know for a fact he's bisexual/interested in being sexual with other men? Or is the 'I could fuck him' idea just coming from your interest in being sexual with men?

I wouldn't plan on the threesome when you're away, staying in their friend's home. If all goes well, and that's when you three decided to do it, you should get a hotel room. If not, you could always do it when you get back home from your trip.

If this doesn't end up panning out, there are other couples who are looking for another male to join, and you might want to pursue that avenue if you're really into the threesome idea.

 

[WCHSP]

He's not bisexual, and neither am I. Again, we've talked about sex plenty of times before... we agreed that we'd both kind of *like* to be bisexual, but aren't in reality. That is, I know he isn't sexually attracted to me... and I'm not sexually attracted to him... but we've been naked around each other and didn't really have any problems with it.

I do know, for instance, that he's been to some play parties. Not sure if he's ever had a conventional threesome, or really if he's interested, which I guess is an important point. Still, what I'm going with is the knowledge that, at least, the idea probably wouldn't *bother* him. Maybe it'd turn him on, maybe not, I don't know, but from what I know he'd be at least neutral towards it.

So everyone seems to think I should approach him first, not her. I guess that's reasonable, I wasn't really sure how it's supposed to work; one thought of mine was to pursue at least a minor sexual encounter with her first, just to confirm that she is, in fact, interested in me (and anyway, since they're open, I could just, like, sleep with her. Him being there would be kinky and fun, but it's her I'm after)... it'd be rather embarrassing if he agreed to it but then she wasn't interested, so I'm worried about approaching him when I don't know her side. You're probably right that talking to him first is best, though. One thing I was thinking was to approach him and double check about the openness thing, like, "would it be okay if I made a move on her? Okay good, just making sure."

 

[SweetErika]

He's not bisexual, and neither am I. Again, we've talked about sex plenty of times before... we agreed that we'd both kind of *like* to be bisexual, but aren't in reality. That is, I know he isn't sexually attracted to me... and I'm not sexually attracted to him... but we've been naked around each other and didn't really have any problems with it.

But you're attracted enough to be game for having sex with him? And you know he's open to being sexual with another man?

So everyone seems to think I should approach him first, not her. I guess that's reasonable, I wasn't really sure how it's supposed to work; one thought of mine was to pursue at least a minor sexual encounter with her first, just to confirm that she is, in fact, interested in me (and anyway, since they're open, I could just, like, sleep with her. Him being there would be kinky and fun, but it's her I'm after)... it'd be rather embarrassing if he agreed to it but then she wasn't interested, so I'm worried about approaching him when I don't know her side. You're probably right that talking to him first is best, though. One thing I was thinking was to approach him and double check about the openness thing, like, "would it be okay if I made a move on her? Okay good, just making sure."

If you approach him, to avoid the potential embarrassment of him agreeing and her not agreeing, the way it should go is:
1) You ask him if they've ever considered a threesome with another guy. (Obviously, there are lots of ways to talk about this/ask.)
2) He indicates interest.
3) You indicate it'd be an appealing concept to you, that you're comfortable and would be open to it with them, and then ask him to talk to her about it and get back to you if she's interested.
4) He talks to her. If she says yea, they talk about whatever it is they need to talk about (protection, rules, signals if someone's uncomfortable during, etc.).
5) If they're interested as a couple, he or they approach you and indicate said interest.

If he agrees without talking to her, I think you should cross them off your list of potential playmates because that indicates a serious lack of communication and/or respect, and you don't want to get involved with a couple that doesn't have a good foundation. Trust me, rocky foundations lead to a lot of drama and pain!

That said, if you're only interested in screwing her, you should probably ASK if she has any interest in you and talk to him separately about it to make sure he's truly alright with the two of you going forward with a sexual relationship. Just because they're open doesn't mean they don't have boundaries or bad feelings about certain people. For instance, they might not want to get involved with mutual friends, or he may realize he has some feelings about her having sex with you, specifically.

But, really, if you're just looking for sex with a woman, you could avoid a whole lot of potential trouble and ruined friendships by finding your own woman to get involved with. Have you considered this as an option?

 

[WCHSP]

As I think I said, I've been single for a few months only. In that time I've become interested in two girls I met in class (anthropology at the University of Toronto) only to discover that they both have boyfriends (one I actually asked out and didn't find out she had a boyfriend until half way through the date... managed to avoid being awkward and had fun anyway). I've also casually propositioned three of my single female friends, all of whom aren't interested in sleeping with anyone at the moment and been declined without any drama by all three (one just recently downgraded from Fundamentalist Christian to Liberal Christian and is still kind of sorting herself out sexually/isn't ready, another was abused as a child and has too many issues around sex to be comfortable with it and the third is only interested in sex within a serious relationship and neither of us want that with the other). So... I've been trying, but in all the wrong places.

I know that I could just go to a bar or something and try to pick up women there. I also know that my performance on stage in the Rocky Horror Picture Show gives me a unique opportunity to hit on audience members -- and I've been hit on by a few, actually, just never really followed through, as I wasn't that interested. Fact is I want more than just sex, I want someone I can respect and with whom I can have an intelligent conversation. An equal with whom to explore my and her sexualities, not just some drunk chick who thinks my legs look good in lingerie and that's enough for her (they do ).

Maybe I'm just too picky. Maybe I'm also still looking in all the wrong places. But this woman is beautiful, intelligent, sexually open and weird enough that my eccentricities aren't that much of an issue (we're all freaks, and proud of it). It's not that that's a hard combination to come by... it's more that most of the women who have those characteristics are, for whatever reason, unavailable to me. If another option presented itself, I'd go for it, but right now, she's the best I've got.

 

[phelon]

well, if all else fails.. you could try the simple method..

honestly talk about it.. it not romatic.. but you seem to be stating your wanting a good fuck not a relationship, or any long term on going.. just a few rounds while your in a dry spell otherwise..

if they are an open couple..
then sitting down with them both and bluntly telling her your attracted to her, and would be happy to to be involved if they are cool with it.. then give them some time to talk with you and between themselves and either you will get laid or you will get an answer that should at the least keep you from losing the friendship you have.

 

[WCHSP]

So he and I had a good talk, confirmed that he's cool with me sleeping with her -- he also mentioned that she wants more physical affection than he is naturally inclined to provide and that this has been causing weirdness. I didn't mention threesomes, want to confirm with her that she's interested in me first. Going swimming with her on Tuesday... if things go well, once we're out of the pool I'll just bluntly ask if she has any sexual interest in me. I mean, exactly like that: "do you have any sexual interest in me?"

Normally I wouldn't ask that way. Usually when I want casual with someone I just say something like "wanna fuck?," and when it's someone I'm not already friends with I'll just act sexually and keep raising the heat until I get signs of discomfort. With her, though... fuck, I can't read her at all. She's one of the most surprising people I've ever met, like I never anticipate anything she says or does. Just kind of... does/says things, and you're like "whoa, I completely did not see that coming!" This makes it impossible to guess how she'll react to something, and that intimidates the fuck out of me. So I'll just ask and see what she says.

Sound like a good plan?

 

[kimmy69er]

well tell us how u go...
m wishing u were here lol

 

[ReadyOne]

So he and I had a good talk, confirmed that he's cool with me sleeping with her -- he also mentioned that she wants more physical affection than he is naturally inclined to provide and that this has been causing weirdness. I didn't mention threesomes, want to confirm with her that she's interested in me first. Going swimming with her on Tuesday... if things go well, once we're out of the pool I'll just bluntly ask if she has any sexual interest in me. I mean, exactly like that: "do you have any sexual interest in me?"

Normally I wouldn't ask that way. Usually when I want casual with someone I just say something like "wanna fuck?," and when it's someone I'm not already friends with I'll just act sexually and keep raising the heat until I get signs of discomfort. With her, though... fuck, I can't read her at all. She's one of the most surprising people I've ever met, like I never anticipate anything she says or does. Just kind of... does/says things, and you're like "whoa, I completely did not see that coming!" This makes it impossible to guess how she'll react to something, and that intimidates the fuck out of me. So I'll just ask and see what she says.

Sound like a good plan?

Make it into an offer she could be interested in.

You've been told that she likes lots of physical affection, which to most women doesn't mean fucking.

Take her in your arms... Tell her your interested in cuddling, massage, dancing, forms of touch, and that after a wonderful day you'd like to end up making love with her... Ask how something could be worked out with her SO.

(Note the implicit close transition over "yes/no" into "how to deliver".)

 

[WCHSP]

The thing is... we haven't been physically affectionate, at all. Like, we scarcely touch each other. There's been occasional physical contact, but like joking stuff... last night she put her hand down on the table with fingers spread, and, on a lark, I did the knife-between-each-finger thing except with my finger. Or, like, I've given her high-five, props, or other stuff like that. Completely nonsexual things. I'd like to cuddle with her... and I *think* she'd like it... but as I said, she intimidates me, and I'm afraid to touch her until I've gotten some kind of unambiguous "go for it" signal.

 

[ReadyOne]

The thing is... we haven't been physically affectionate, at all. Like, we scarcely touch each other. There's been occasional physical contact, but like joking stuff... last night she put her hand down on the table with fingers spread, and, on a lark, I did the knife-between-each-finger thing except with my finger. Or, like, I've given her high-five, props, or other stuff like that. Completely nonsexual things. I'd like to cuddle with her... and I *think* she'd like it... but as I said, she intimidates me, and I'm afraid to touch her until I've gotten some kind of unambiguous "go for it" signal.

You got it her signal -- touching is encouraged. Nothing ambiguous there.

If nothing else, deliberately touch her more. Rub her shoulders, pat her bottom, stroke her hair. She should light up and relax, lean in toward you.

 

[WCHSP]

So, tonight she and I met up, as we had plans to go swimming. She'd actually forgotten about the swimming but I'd sent a text saying to meet in a different place than usual, which reminded me, so she came. We ended up doing parkour because she didn't have her swim stuff, climbed on the roof of a residence at our university, and called her boyfriend (my close friend) to join us with food we could eat up there. While up there, 15 minutes before he was due to join us, we had this little exchange:


Her: "This would be a great place to have sex."
Me: "Yes, it would. Would you like to?"
Her: "I'll have to think about it."
Me: "That's okay. For my part, I find you very attractive, and I'll leave the rest with you. Ooh, look, the cable box..."

and we ran off to examine the newly found cable box, and had a lot of fun for the rest of the evening, before and after he joined us. I figure there are two possibilities:
1) She's not interested.
2) She was hesitant because he and I are close, and because he was soon to arrive -- we wouldn't have been able to finish before he got there, and it would've been strange to keep going after he arrived.

Hard to say which, but I'll find out pretty soon, because if 2 is the case, she'll probably talk to him and one of them will get back to me about it, or she'll wait until the next time she and I are going to be alone... which will be in one week.

 

[mark_j]

some cheap advice.. if it has been covered my apologies.. but if they do not invite you into their bed then I would not press the issue.. you've mentioned it to friend and that is about it.. from there it is up to them... don't push it..

 

[WCHSP]

Yep, I don't plan to press it. I expressed to both of them my interest in her, and at the very least they're both fine with me being interested in her. And we're going to be seeing each other tomorrow.

 

[subwannabe]

you have some unusual past times

 

[WCHSP]

So the three of us hung out a lot yesterday. Rather than going in the possible intimate direction, she and I just kind of started rough-housing. Wrestled a few times, gave piggy-back rides, playfully shoved each other, that sort of thing. And toward the end of the night the three of us huddled for warmth. That's as far as it got, though.

I don't know if this is leading anywhere. But it's certainly interesting that a day after I asked if she wanted to fuck and she said she'd "think about it," she started horsing-around with me... at the very least shows her comfort with me being into her.

 

[lushlucid]

is it worth the possibility of fucking up the friendship with either of them would be my number one question

and

what is a minor indescretion?

 

[WCHSP]

I don't think it's likely to fuck up my friendship with either of them. They're both cool with me wanting her, and we're all pretty sexually open, etc etc.

 

[WCHSP]

Okay, so definite progress has been made. Tonight the three of us hung out again, she and I wrestled (her knee was mildly injured but she wasn't angry or anything), he went home, she and I sat around and talked for a while longer, mainly about sex. She said how she's not sure about sleeping with me, not because she's not attracted to me, but because of my relationship to him... which I expected, really. I guess she has a "rule" not to sleep with close friends of other people she's sleeping with, due to the potential for drama... but then agreed with me that he and I are about the least dramatic people around, and, so, while that's an entirely sensible policy, if she were to ever break it, this'd be a reasonable time to do so.

We also established that it's not just physical affection... she also wants a lot more sex. She wants it a couple times a day, he wants it once a week. Well, guess what, I want it a couple times a day. Go figure. I explained my sexual position (in which she commented a couple times how I need to get laid), basically saying how what I need is a fuck buddy (or three), and she said "it's tempting."

Here's where it gets really saucy: I asked her if she'd like to have a threesome with me and him. She's never had a threesome before, and said she would, "if just for the novelty of it." We then discussed threesome dynamics a little, like different ways it can work, me stressing the two mouths on one person at any one time angle.

So, after all of this, I'm still not fucking her. But that's some goddamn good progress. 1) She's tempted by the fuck buddies thing because she isn't getting enough sex right now and 2) She said flat out that she would have a threesome with me if he was interested in it.

Now I've just gotta pitch it to him.

 

[infinity706]

Ok, so this has come around full circle to exactly what you were talking about in the first post. I'm guessing you're probably going to get fucked afterall.

 

[WCHSP]

Yeah... I guess what it shows is that my understanding of the situation in the OP was pretty accurate. All the stuff between then and now has really been to confirm the things I already thought, and now we've gotten to the point that he's said he's okay with me sleeping with her, and she's said she's okay with sleeping with both of us together. So now I just need to sell him on it.

God this process has been slow... but at least there's progress!