suffixes, suffixed, suffixing, suffixer, suffixee, suffix

[todski28]

What are they?
What do the do?
How do they weaken words?
Why do they work in some places and not others?

Why would this piece get 1201's advice to cut them

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=54635746&postcount=121

And this one is acceptable

http://www.literotica.com/p/darkness-reigns

Any ones thoughts and opinions wold be greatly appreciated

Regards, tods

 

[pelegrino]

I think that suffixes work well if you feel they should be there, so in most cases they should work. I disagree with 12's opinion that they weaken the words. To me they demystify the "mystics" usually.

 

[todski28]

I think that suffixes work well if you feel they should be there, so in most cases they should work. I disagree with 12's opinion that they weaken the words. To me they demystify the "mystics" usually.

It's not just 1201's view so please don't say you disagree with just him. He is the biggest advocatoe of using less of them here in this particular forum. But I'm sure If I googled I would find wealth of into on the subject. I'm just lazy

Angeline makes a comment about meaninglessly in this poem
about not using adverbs if she can avoid it,

http://www.literotica.com/p/in-the-midst-of-blue

Also in this post here in the first draft of the posted piece.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=47507874&postcount=86

Angeline is far more subtle but I believe her point is not too dis-similar to 1201

Which is a tendency to not want to use a suffix. Obviously there are places where they can be used or even have to be used, I wanted to try and get to nit-grit...... Or nitty-gritty

 

[twelveoone]

What are they?
What do the do?
How do they weaken words?
Why do they work in some places and not others?

Why would this piece get 1201's advice to cut them

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=54635746&postcount=121

And this one is acceptable

http://www.literotica.com/p/darkness-reigns

Any ones thoughts and opinions wold be greatly appreciated

Regards, tods

one this in my opin belongs in the other section, fuck the mods, this has to do with poetry and discussion. More so than three postings of Bob Southey or bullshit from peegalhegel, all because someone can't find some thread, deadbeats away.

My comments:
has to do with sound versus wastage, your poem is what, describe the action...
thud, did you do thudded? wouldn't have objected.

Magneto puts a "ting' sound next to the guillotine..., it sounds like teeth gnashing, elsewhere in his poem.

Generally don't do anything unless you have a reason for it.

Level three - poem by Greenmountainer, possible Onomatopoeia

Tristess softening in her work, again possible Onomatopoeia, certainly liquidity


do you want leaves rustling down the street like pieces of sheet metal?

how much do I get paid around here?

if I was going for sarcasm directed at a person in a poem, the word "resentments" overstuffed, denatured, would use it as belittlement, if not I find a better way of expressing it.

 

[pelegrino]

It's not just 1201's view so please don't say you disagree with just him. He is the biggest advocatoe of using less of them here in this particular forum. But I'm sure If I googled I would find wealth of into on the subject. I'm just lazy

Angeline makes a comment about meaninglessly in this poem
about not using adverbs if she can avoid it,

http://www.literotica.com/p/in-the-midst-of-blue

Also in this post here in the first draft of the posted piece.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=47507874&postcount=86

Angeline is far more subtle but I believe her point is not too dis-similar to 1201

Which is a tendency to not want to use a suffix. Obviously there are places where they can be used or even have to be used, I wanted to try and get to nit-grit...... Or nitty-gritty

Fair enough! opinions are opinions. I cannot understand how a word can be weakened by its explanation or even by its emphasis.
By the way, I commented on "In The Midst Of Blue", see it if you please.

 

[todski28]

Fair enough! opinions are opinions. I cannot understand how a word can be weakened by its explanation or even by its emphasis.
By the way, I commented on "In The Midst Of Blue", see it if you please.

Thank you for your thoughts pelegeino I didn't mean it as offensive arguementation and do respect your comment. We all see things different my main point with the thread is to find out why it can be considered a weakening of a word and how suffixes can be used contexttually to enhance a poem, or Sonics etc,

May I comment on the use of suffixes that I have recently started noticing in music?

Remember I have been writing less than 2 years and have minimal education.

 

[twelveoone]

I think that suffixes work well if you feel they should be there, so in most cases they should work. I disagree with 12's opinion that they weaken the words. To me they demystify the "mystics" usually.

example as to how they strengthen the word? Out of context. There may be a few.
generally speaking when you suffix you assign a subordinate function also - ly becomes an adverb, verb has more power.

anyway a famous example:
April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding

where is he headed? to

A little life with dried tubers.

deliberate for at least two reasons

unless you have the reason, stir has more power than stirring

 

[todski28]

one this in my opin belongs in the other section, fuck the mods, this has to do with poetry and discussion. More so than three postings of Bob Southey or bullshit from peegalhegel, all because someone can't find some thread, deadbeats away.

My comments:
has to do with sound versus wastage, your poem is what, describe the action...
thud, did you do thudded? wouldn't have objected.

Magneto puts a "ting' sound next to the guillotine..., it sounds like teeth gnashing, elsewhere in his poem.

Generally don't do anything unless you have a reason for it.

Level three - poem by Greenmountainer, possible Onomatopoeia

Tristess softening in her work, again possible Onomatopoeia, certainly liquidity


do you want leaves rustling down the street like pieces of sheet metal?

how much do I get paid around here?

if I was going for sarcasm directed at a person in a poem, the word "resentments" overstuffed, denatured, would use it as belittlement, if not I find a better way of expressing it.

I'm hoping that satisfaction that people are thinking about the words they use and why they use them will give rise to better quality poems which will pay back what you are saying as oppose d to feeling like you are banging your head against the wall. So it ties in with the Sonics of a piece, when you point out rustling in that context it makes sense, so you would try to use sibilant words or scrape, scrapes over scraping in that context.

Which makes sense. I like it when a poem has sounds that intermingled and enhance a read.

 

[twelveoone]

Remember I have been writing less than 2 years and have minimal education.

education is much overratedness
the ability to ask questions, the ability to apply, much, much better.
you're doing fine.

 

[pelegrino]

example as to how they strengthen the word? Out of context. There may be a few.
generally speaking when you suffix you assign a subordinate function also - ly becomes an adverb, verb has more power.

anyway a famous example:
April is the cruellest month, to breed
Lilacs out of the dead land, mix
Memory and desire, stir
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeds
(sic)

Do you mean something like that?
Looks ok to me, but it misses rhyme (which had a nice form but was not very sophisticated in the first place), only my opinion.

 

[todski28]

Just gone 1am here and gotta be up at 5 to be at work, but will be back some time tomorrow. Hopefully have some more thoughts here. Thanks pelwgrino and 1201 for your time so far

 

[Angeline]

A suffix is an added word ending (for example, dreaded) like a prefix is an added word beginning (as in rewrite). Both clarify meaning in some way. We mostly use suffixes with verbs to connote the sense of time, that is, did the action happen in the past (ed) or the present (ing). There's more but I think that is the main thing to understand about them.

Why would 12 tell you to cut them back? In prose a suffix is informational; it can be useful to clarify when something happened. In poetry where you're working on a smaller canvas, so to speak, a lot of "ing" or "ed" or "ly" words will slow a reader down. It gets a bit awkward and then there is the repetition factor. You don't want to repeat something unless it's intentional and is being used as a rhetorical device. And there is another reason: since suffixes mostly connote the past the "voice" of your poem becomes less active. Even the present tense "ing" ending is more passive and informational, so it's more like telling about something than showing it. That kind of writing can weaken a poem. And while a passive voice may be chosen for effect in some poems or even just some lines, it's generally better to work in the active voice. Just my opinion and I don't always take my own advice lol, but that's my two cents worth.

 

[twelveoone]

What are they?
What do the do?
How do they weaken words?
Why do they work in some places and not others?

Why would this piece get 1201's advice to cut them

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=54635746&postcount=121

And this one is acceptable

http://www.literotica.com/p/darkness-reigns

Any ones thoughts and opinions wold be greatly appreciated

Regards, tods

What I want you to do is consider the case (the case being the intent of the poem) without getting dogmatic with the don'ts. i.e. Don't use adverbs, Don't use gerunds...etc. You are playing a game of psychological impressment. More than once I have used suffixes -less, if that is the direction I want, or- ous, for a different intent. But I know the words are weakened, and you have to establish a pattern
.
BTW the other thing was TS Eliot's Wasteland. He had at least two, possibly three reasons for that way - he wanted it weak. Change of context, it became the opening lines, now it rings, jangles, functions as an irritant. Too much of anything goes the other way - Chairman Tao.

 

[twelveoone]

btw, looks like Ang and I largely agree, tod. For the most part, all better writers do, different phrasing, slightly different take.
THINK - we all agree on that.

 

[Magnetron]

Level three - poem by Greenmountainer, possible Onomatopoeia

Tristess softening in her work, again possible Onomatopoeia, certainly liquidity

Viewing pornographies of a military kind
I had just steadfastedly fappity fap fapped
Onto my laptop cradled, lapped
Sturdily between my kneeses
When you began your sneezings from behind
Scaring the Bejesus out of me, myself and I
Covering all those bases in a single salute and shoot

 

[Tsotha]

It's interesting to me that the gerund in English slips in so easily. There is something tempting about using it. On the other hand, it simply does not carry the same strength of passage of time as in Portuguese. It's something that I miss, as a tool, when writing.

Also, in Portuguese the gerund's suffix depends on the verb:

As águas do rio vão passando / correndo / fluindo

(Which, in a wonky translation, means:
The waters of the river go passing / running / flowing by)

This allows for some playfulness:

Transfigurado de emoção, sorrindo...
Sorrindo a céus que se vão desvendando
a mundos que se vão multiplicando
a portas d'ouro que se vão abrindo.

- Cruz e Souza​

That is, ABBA with gerund.

(Another wonky translation:
Transfigured with emotion, smiling...
Smiling to skies that "go unveiling themselves" (it unveils itself + gerund)
to worlds that "go multiplying themselves" (it multiplies itself + gerund)
to golden door that "go opening themselves" (it opens itself + gerund) )

So, this is something that I can't do in English. Too wonky.

However, there are uses for suffixes and gerund that are valid. As said above, it depends. On what, though? Style of the poem you're writing, whether you want the word to bring attention upon itself (consider the example poem 1201 pasted, how it reinforces the line break), and whether you want to "weaken" the word.

Weaken... Make it weak... Weakify... Even that depends. Words don't auto-magically lose "strength" when you add characters to the end. It has to do with the passive / active voice, though, and to being stretched in time, or an adverb (as Angeline says above).

I forget where I was going with this. Nowhere, methinks.

 

[twelveoone]

However, there are uses for suffixes and gerund that are valid. As said above, it depends. On what, though? Style of the poem you're writing, whether you want the word to bring attention upon itself (consider the example poem 1201 pasted, how it reinforces the line break), and whether you want to "weaken" the word.

Weaken... Make it weak... Weakify... Even that depends. Words don't auto-magically lose "strength" when you add characters to the end. It has to do with the passive / active voice, though, and to being stretched in time, or an adverb (as Angeline says above).

I forget where I was going with this. Nowhere, methinks.

perhaps a rather drawn out explanation, and again it is a very fine line
the root is a concept of a thing
the suffix tends to be an aspect of the concept

1. It was heaven.
2. It was heavenly.
3. It was like heaven.
1 is a metaphor, 3 is a simile, the meaning of 2 is closer to 3

my view 1 is the strongest, and it is more compact. It is also more subject to play. Variable meaning, noun-verb transposition (well, not that example)
Well has a more playable meanings than
Wellness, Welled, etc.


let's try it again

soft
softly not that much different

hard
hardly couldn't resist

 

[Angeline]

It's interesting to me that the gerund in English slips in so easily. There is something tempting about using it. On the other hand, it simply does not carry the same strength of passage of time as in Portuguese. It's something that I miss, as a tool, when writing.

Also, in Portuguese the gerund's suffix depends on the verb:

As águas do rio vão passando / correndo / fluindo

(Which, in a wonky translation, means:
The waters of the river go passing / running / flowing by)

This allows for some playfulness:

Transfigurado de emoção, sorrindo...
Sorrindo a céus que se vão desvendando
a mundos que se vão multiplicando
a portas d'ouro que se vão abrindo.

- Cruz e Souza​

That is, ABBA with gerund.

(Another wonky translation:
Transfigured with emotion, smiling...
Smiling to skies that "go unveiling themselves" (it unveils itself + gerund)
to worlds that "go multiplying themselves" (it multiplies itself + gerund)
to golden door that "go opening themselves" (it opens itself + gerund) )

So, this is something that I can't do in English. Too wonky.

However, there are uses for suffixes and gerund that are valid. As said above, it depends. On what, though? Style of the poem you're writing, whether you want the word to bring attention upon itself (consider the example poem 1201 pasted, how it reinforces the line break), and whether you want to "weaken" the word.

Weaken... Make it weak... Weakify... Even that depends. Words don't auto-magically lose "strength" when you add characters to the end. It has to do with the passive / active voice, though, and to being stretched in time, or an adverb (as Angeline says above).

I forget where I was going with this. Nowhere, methinks.

Hi.

Of course there are uses that are valid for various types of communication. For me the question is how I want to say something in a poem because every word choice, every piece of punctuation, every line or space break should be intentional. And that means I have to make decisions about verb tense and passive or active voice and what works best for what I'm trying to do. Maybe I want to switch things around. Context is key, but I should be able to say everything in this poem is the way it is because I chose it. That's what editing is all about for me.

 

[Tsotha]

Hi.

Of course there are uses that are valid for various types of communication. For me the question is how I want to say something in a poem because every word choice, every piece of punctuation, every line or space break should be intentional. And that means I have to make decisions about verb tense and passive or active voice and what works best for what I'm trying to do. Maybe I want to switch things around. Context is key, but I should be able to say everything in this poem is the way it is because I chose it. That's what editing is all about for me.

Hi, hi-5.

I agree 100% with what you've said above.

What I meant with my message is that there is no hard rule saying that a suffix necessarily results in a weaker poem. Hopefully, you're deliberately choosing every word in your poem. However, choice depends on awareness. Not everyone here is capable of noticing "oh, here I'm using passive voice, I could have done X, or Y, or Z instead".

 

[todski28]

Hi, hi-5.

I agree 100% with what you've said above.

What I meant with my message is that there is no hard rule saying that a suffix necessarily results in a weaker poem. Hopefully, you're deliberately choosing every word in your poem. However, choice depends on awareness. Not everyone here is capable of noticing "oh, here I'm using passive voice, I could have done X, or Y, or Z instead".

Funny I am still just winging most of my work on the fly. Line breaks, Sonics, word choices are still mostly instinctual just porn is one of my first tries at making something that has definitive place ment and interlocking sounds in each section, my line breaks read different on my phone than they do on my lap top so some of it was unintentional but I don't mind the way it has turned out.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Hi.

Of course there are uses that are valid for various types of communication. For me the question is how I want to say something in a poem because every word choice, every piece of punctuation, every line or space break should be intentional. And that means I have to make decisions about verb tense and passive or active voice and what works best for what I'm trying to do. Maybe I want to switch things around. Context is key, but I should be able to say everything in this poem is the way it is because I chose it. That's what editing is all about for me.

This is, I believe, what differentiates someone who wants to be a poet from another who, although initially inspired, loses interest in time.

 

[Tsotha]

Funny I am still just winging most of my work on the fly. Line breaks, Sonics, word choices are still mostly instinctual just porn is one of my first tries at making something that has definitive place ment and interlocking sounds in each section, my line breaks read different on my phone than they do on my lap top so some of it was unintentional but I don't mind the way it has turned out.

I go with instinct too, Tod, because I can't remember much from Portuguese grammar, and I never really learned it for English. I have a list of ways words go together, in my mind, but I have little or no prejudice for which is "right", other than "feeling" that a certain pattern sounds "better". That's just the way I learned to speak this.

Given what you're saying, though, it might be an interesting exercise for you to write a sentence and then attempt to rewrite it in other ways. See how many ways there are for saying the same thing. (It won't be the same thing, anymore, but close enough.)

 

[todski28]

Thank you all for the responses so far it is a lot to think on, greatly appreciated

 

[Tzara]

I don't think the issue is so much a suffix as such, but rather parts of speech. What you are striving for in poetry is vivid imagery and interesting sound. As Angie said, suffixes on verbs often change the tense of the verb ("walk" vs. "walked," for example), but they can also change the part of speech. For example:

• John walks across the room. (verb, present tense)
• John walked across the room. (verb, past tense)
• John is walking across the room (participle, part of a verb phrase)
• John is the one walking across the room. (participle, part of an adjectival phrase, I think)
• The walking man is John. (adjective)
• Walking is John's favorite activity. (noun/gerund)

If I'd chosen my example better (say, using "swim" as the root word), I could also have made an adverb (like "swimmingly").

Now there aren't any "rules" about what kind of words are acceptable in a poem and what kinds of words are not, but generally speaking the strongest words are the more basic ones--nouns and verbs are generally more vivid that adjectives which are generally more vivid than adverbs. Novice writers try to make writing vivid by piling on adjectives and adverbs: "The pale-skinned, white-haired, excessively thin man spoke wheedlingly and shrilly to the police officer." It usually is better to try and choose stronger and more specific/visual nouns and verbs than to ornament descriptions with adjectives and adverbs: "The thin albino whined to the officer."

But--and this is what makes it so hard to learn--sometimes you want the ornament. You may want it for reasons of sound, of characterization, or whatever.

Why there are no final answers.

 

[twelveoone]

Now, Tzara are we all saying pretty much the same thing? Except now, adjectives are now thrown in, suffixing a word does not make an adjective and that is would be another topic, wouldn't it?
The operative is know what you are doing, and the really sad part is you can't know everything.
Suffixing tends to weaken a word is what I said, it was questioned. Good. It is easy to remember, now both Angeline and you come in the grammatical reasons, for some of it, it all backs up what I gave the newbs doesn't it? So far so good. What is the easiest thing to remember.
Suffixing tends to weaken a word (This also includes some overblown nouns.)
Think, is that what you want?
Neither one of these statements is dogmatic. And I gave contrary indications.

btw, looks like Ang and I largely agree, tod. For the most part, all better writers do, different phrasing, slightly different take.
THINK - we all agree on that.

How nice for you to show up, summarize and conveniently forget the fact that it was something I said that was questioned, defended.
Yes, I remember vividly that nomination, where all I was good for was comments. Fuck, now you have Tazz for that, don't you?
Thank you.
Suffixing tends to weaken a word
Think, is that what you want?
is largely what they need to know, for now.