Subtle or Vague?

[jthserra]

I had mentioned in my review of Sack's wonderful poem: "Little Girl" that sometimes people confuse vague for subtle. The two words are distinctly different.

Borrowing from dictionary.com, I list the definitions of each:

Subtle:
1. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.
2. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
3. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

4. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.
5. Crafty or sly; devious.
6. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.


Vague:
1. Not clearly expressed; inexplicit.
2. Not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.
3. Lacking definite shape, form, or character; indistinct: saw a vague outline of a building through the fog.
4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.


Clearly, considering the items I highlighted in bold, the two terms are not synonymous, if anything they are almost opposites. Subtlety clearly requires skill or ingenuity, vagueness is being inexplicit, not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.

The point is here is very important and the differences here can make the difference in creating a well crafted poem, worthy of distinction, and a less sucessful poem, worthy of the rework stack.

Read Sack's poem and appreciate how he subtlety uses the images to draw you into the small girl's world, only to... well, you need to read the poem to see it.


jim : )

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I never understood the "vague" thread for that exact reason.

How can a complex and intricate poem be called vague? This is particularly serious in a vibrant Poetry board such as this. Words are our tools. How can we even call ourselves poets if we don't know our tools?

 

[Angeline]

here's a poem by ee cummings. some people would say it can't be understood, though I don't think it's one of his least accessible poems.

is it vague or subtle?

ecco a letter starting"dearest we"
e.e. cummings

ecco a letter starting"dearest we"
unsigned:remarkably brief but covering
one complete miracle of nearest far

"i cordially invite me to become
noone except yourselves r s v p"

she cannot read or write,la moon. Employs
a very crazily how clownlike that
this quickly ghost scribbling from there to where

-name unless i'm mistaken chauvesouris-
whose grammar is atrocious;but so what

princess selene doesn't know a thing
who's much too busy being her beautiful yes.
The place is now
let us accept
(the time

forever,and you'll wear your silver shoes

 

[Guest]

Vague.

Is it not a label attached to a poem that the unimaginitive mind can't fathom? The joy of a subtle poem is the freedom it gives the mind, the imagination, to complete the picture.

Thank you, jim. I hadn't seen sack's poem before.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

rainbows rebutle?

I had mentioned in my review of Sack's wonderful poem: "Little Girl" that sometimes people confuse vague for subtle. The two words are distinctly different.

Borrowing from dictionary.com, I list the definitions of each:

Subtle:
1. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.
2. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
3. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

4. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.
5. Crafty or sly; devious.
6. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.


Vague:
1. Not clearly expressed; inexplicit.
2. Not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.
3. Lacking definite shape, form, or character; indistinct: saw a vague outline of a building through the fog.
4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.


Clearly, considering the items I highlighted in bold, the two terms are not synonymous, if anything they are almost opposites. Subtlety clearly requires skill or ingenuity, vagueness is being inexplicit, not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.

The point is here is very important and the differences here can make the difference in creating a well crafted poem, worthy of distinction, and a less sucessful poem, worthy of the rework stack.

Read Sack's poem and appreciate how he subtlety uses the images to draw you into the small girl's world, only to... well, you need to read the poem to see it.


jim : )

the point~

okay tath... I don't dispute jim's review of
boosting a buddy, but he implies I'm incorrect and
that the poem is not vague but 'subtle' just a nice
word saying the same thing~

quote jim=
That I thought was worth a second look. I think often times subtlety is mistaken for being vague, but in this case the subtle presentation is anything but vague.

well....

clip~
"impressions in sand
a shiny ring
petals of a dandelion

you were there...


~~~~~~~~~`
is that vague?????????
I meant 'subtle?"

and....

about "Little Girl".....
Thanks, Jim for your nice comments on Little Girl. I had experimented with different lengths, and really liked the final result. Ending it with "Weren't you little girl?" is too vague, and doesn't tell the full story. Just saying "to Hally" would not reveal her age, as well as the fact that she recently passed away. (she was one of my piano students that suddenly succumbed to pneumonia) I think the only thing I would change is putting the dedication in parenthesis, which is somewhat distracting. I'm glad this poem made you think a little.....it's my personal favorite!

Best, Sack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and the poet himself stateing an attempt to keep
it from being... too vague, I didn't hear subtle?

when you say lets take a second look your saying
lets reevaluate this, jim should have just posted
a review of the poem not use my review words at all
or at least expect a reviewer to explain why it seemed
vague, while his review trumps with a 'subtle'

The thread of vague discussed that a poem that points
in no direct direction is called vague, I learned the
appropriate word from the poet of this poem, so
some how I find it funny that the poet calls the poem
vague, so the defense rest, ....I demand a miss trial!

hehehe <grinin'>

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: rainbows rebutle?

that the poem is not vague but 'subtle' just a nice
word saying the same thing~

No, it's a wrong way of saying the opposite thing.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

okay before this gets thrown off into a
a tail spin (dog chasin' it's tail)


A) why compelled to create this thread
over that post? <oo>

B) I called it vague , sack called it vague
jim calls it subtle and tath wants a beer
lauren don't like vague, tris had a great
definition <grin> so we see things differently
who thunk it~

c)you commented that it is 'clearly not vague',
perhaps ..."In my opinion"
would have been more correct?
instead of the pin prick on my review
that ya'll (jim) needed a second 'look' (~_~)
why not say... 'hey here's my review on
said poem'...

I know why ...thanks hoss
for the definition of vague
and subtle...very enlightening~

Two Samurai of sword and pen
one from the forested jungle
the other from the concrete
jungle, The tiger roars as the
crane taunts from the sky...
<eye to eye>

bows ...........

 

[WickedEve]

Subtle poetry hints at images so the reader can create their own picture.
Vague is no paint, no canvas.

 

[sack]

I vaguely thought we were way beyond this...

Just for the record, what I said exactly was that if I had ended the poem where Jim wanted me to, then it would have been too vague and "incomplete." As the final product stands, I don't think it is vague at all, or particularly subtle. "Vivid" and "poignant" are two words that I would use to describe the poem, however. I'm glad that different people are seeing various things in it, as all good poetry should communicate this way.

Sack

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Re: I vaguely thought we were way beyond this...

Just for the record, what I said exactly was that if I had ended the poem where Jim wanted me to, then it would have been too vague and "incomplete." As the final product stands, I don't think it is vague at all, or particularly subtle. "Vivid" and "poignant" are two words that I would use to describe the poem, however. I'm glad that different people are seeing various things in it, as all good poetry should communicate this way.

Sack

Yes the poem is very good ... moving
vague subtle or other wise ...

and yes I thought we were through
all of this " too" sack talk to 'your' bud
jim the thread starter >grin>

I 'll add I get one maybe two
comments of dislike but ten +
OF THOSE WHO DO LIKE IT,
Point is some saw it differently,

when you say too vague...
"Weren't you little girl?" is too vague, "

this is an attempt to disgribe and used this word?
or it's vague but didn't want to be too much more?
see I took door number 2 <smile>

I don't think you'll find to many
who didn't like this poem ...

 

[twelveoone]

Subtle:
1. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.
2. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
3. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

4. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.
5. Crafty or sly; devious.
6. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.


Vague:
1. Not clearly expressed; inexplicit.
2. Not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.
3. Lacking definite shape, form, or character; indistinct: saw a vague outline of a building through the fog.
4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.

true, jim, but if one looks at some of the other definitions, they sort of blend don't they
2. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
or a description of the Medici at their worst:
6. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.
5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.
Think of these last two in the context of Sun Tzu.

Always good to play a game of word substitution.

However, your point is well taken, and you defined your terms clearly.

 

[Tathagata]

please

put on a copy of the " Anvil Chorus" before clicking the link

 

[twelveoone]

What do you mean by that?

Main Entry: mean·ing
Pronunciation: 'mE-ni[ng]
Function: noun
1 a : the thing one intends to convey especially by language : PURPORT b : the thing that is conveyed especially by language : IMPORT
2 : something meant or intended : AIM <a mischievous meaning was apparent>
3 : significant quality; especially : implication of a hidden or special significance <a glance full of meaning>
4 a : the logical connotation of a word or phrase b : the logical denotation or extension of a word or phrase
- meaning adjective

 

[twelveoone]

my point grasshopper, is that between 1a and 1b, lie two different lives, paths. The shade is always different.
I am sorry I cannot see the .gif.

 

[jthserra]

Ah... but once again, the subtleties

true, jim, but if one looks at some of the other definitions, they sort of blend don't they
2. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
or a description of the Medici at their worst:
6. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.
5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.
Think of these last two in the context of Sun Tzu.

Yes, some of the definitions seem to merge, but look at the subtleties here. "Difficult to understand; abtruse" seems clear, but the example they give... "an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent" seemed to imply that the lack was on the part of the opponent, someone not smart enough to grasp the subtlety, whereas "Not clear in meaning or application" is again due to the failing of the person making the vague statement.

Similarly the subtle poison, while injurious, still implies craft or a crafty application, while "Indistinctly felt... hazy" implies it is due to an ineptitude.

The differences become subtle, but that is often where poetry is found, in the very subtleties of the language.

I've not read "The Art of War" so I miss the contextual reference there.


I probably should apologize to Sack, his poem deserves more than to become a sidebar to some definitions, as it deserved more than a simple mention in a long list of poems.


jim : )

 

[The Mutt]

here's a poem by ee cummings. some people would say it can't be understood, though I don't think it's one of his least accessible poems.

is it vague or subtle?

ecco a letter starting"dearest we"
e.e. cummings

ecco a letter starting"dearest we"
unsigned:remarkably brief but covering
one complete miracle of nearest far

"i cordially invite me to become
noone except yourselves r s v p"

she cannot read or write,la moon. Employs
a very crazily how clownlike that
this quickly ghost scribbling from there to where

-name unless i'm mistaken chauvesouris-
whose grammar is atrocious;but so what

princess selene doesn't know a thing
who's much too busy being her beautiful yes.
The place is now
let us accept
(the time

forever,and you'll wear your silver shoes

Man, I want some of what he was smoking!

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Grammar Police (case #1242005)

You guys are just way to much fun ... <grinin'>

When we police each others words ...

~~~~Grammar Police (case # 1242005 )~~~~~

(song sounds)
BAD BOYS ... BAD BOYS ... WHATCHA'
GONNA DO ... WHATCHA GONNA DO
WHEN THEY COME FOR YOU ...? <chuckle>

On guilty walls a slick shine shone
around the most distinguished hung
in dark dark robes, smileless ...

Balif:
"All rise ...Judge Will Wop'ya presiding."
Judge enters and sit's and all sit, by siding.

Judge Will Wopya:
"This here presceding is a preliminary,
no actual charges have been filed
please begin your examining..."

Prosecution:
"Thank you your honor, I submit exhibit 'A'"
walks up and on the desk a folder is lay...

"...and prosecution calls the first witness ...
the defendant ... officer Artrocious!"

<low mumble murmurs>

Balif: "Do you swear to tell the truth the
whole truth and nothing but the truth so
help you god?"

Officer Artrocious:
"So help me Budda ...yes I do!"
Sitting with his uniform, royal blue!

Prosecution:
"Officer Artrocious would you examine
exhibit 'A' and give us your statement ...
on this matter?"

Exhibit 'A' reads:
1/24/2005
( review comment)
(I believe (Anon) is excercising being vague )

Officer Artrocious:
"I was still dealing with the original call out
that I was responding to... when....
a sound swished by my ear,
then another ...then
at this time I radio'd for help ...
"Officer under fire, I repeat, officer under fire!
Civilian down ...I repeat civilian down, eyes close
officer needs assistance at w. gray and montrose!"

Prosecution:
"STOP! now it's my understanding that in order to
get into the law enforcement academy you have to
have at least two years college credits is this correct?"

Officer Atrocious:
"Yes,"

Prosecution:
"...and that literary skills are a must in filing
daily reports of your actions and events in
the comunity? And that these records are
made public therefore should be filled out
with the ut-most correctness?"

Officer Artrocious:
"Did I take the bullet for you? or was it
steaming pride and lured innocence that
lead a daily trail to this day? I vowed to
protect you ... or was it me testing myself
gladiator style ...

prosecution:
"Please stick to the questions at hand!"
shuffled the feet of the prosecution


Officer Artrocious:
"I thought my statement was correct,
defendant looks to the left


Prosecution:
"GP officer say's and I quote ...
<< this is clearly subtle not vauge>>>
...also..."

"I submit Exhibit 'B'
(statement from grammar police)
Yes, some of the definitions seem to merge, but look at the subtleties here. "Difficult to understand; abtruse" seems clear, but the example they give... "an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent" seemed to imply that the lack was on the part of the opponent, someone not smart enough to grasp the subtlety, whereas "Not clear in meaning or application" is again due to the failing of the person making the vague statement.

Similarly the subtle poison, while injurious, still implies craft or a crafty application, while "Indistinctly felt... hazy" implies it is due to an ineptitude.

The differences become subtle, but that is often where poetry is found, in the very subtleties of the language.

I've not read "The Art of War" so I miss the contextual reference there.


I probably should apologize to Sack, his poem deserves more than to become a sidebar to some definitions, as it deserved more than a simple mention in a long list of poems.


jim : )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

finger points and mumbles
hammer falls and cracks out loud

Judge:
"Order in the court ... order in the court"

Officer Artrocious:
"Subtle ...is a nice way of saying
...something without a lot of information!
similar to vague!"

Prosecution:
"I protest and submit exhibit 'C'"

Exhibit 'C' reads:
Definitions~
vague=indefinate, not distinct, mentally unprecise
subtle=crafty, clever, acute

"So in your opinion Officer Artrocious
this was a vague situation or a subtle one
given that both terms have been made
available to you?"

Officer Artrocious:
'Well I thought it was vague but
the dedication at the end made it ...
well ..not crafty and clever but
endearing."

but I vaguely recall now...
was that subtle?

"Can we get a copy of that (document)?"

Prosecution:
"Prosecution rests at the moment your honor
till this new evidence can be obtained."

Judge Will Wopya:
"We will take a break" <grin>
hammer falls "SLAM"

(song plays >>>
30 days in the hole ...ha ha ha
30 days in the hole ... <mumble > if your
ever in houston, boy you better watch out
you better not gamble and you better not
fight! >>>>30 days in the hole ... ha ha ha

Comentator:
"Well there ya have it the grammar police
have sited Officer Artrocious with poor
grammar habits and here is a spectator ...
......what do you make of this ...?
~~~~~~~~~
bad boys bad boys watcha gonna do?

 

[seranade]

bye

hey Arturo

I am heading to Victoria just jumped on to check my story and poem, Whats this a new story? I'll read it later.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Trouble with the triad?

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Ah... but once again, the subtleties

Yes, some of the definitions seem to merge, but look at the subtleties here. "Difficult to understand; abtruse" seems clear, but the example they give... "an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent" seemed to imply that the lack was on the part of the opponent, someone not smart enough to grasp the subtlety, whereas "Not clear in meaning or application" is again due to the failing of the person making the vague statement.

Similarly the subtle poison, while injurious, still implies craft or a crafty application, while "Indistinctly felt... hazy" implies it is due to an ineptitude.

The differences become subtle, but that is often where poetry is found, in the very subtleties of the language.

I've not read "The Art of War" so I miss the contextual reference there.


I probably should apologize to Sack, his poem deserves more than to become a sidebar to some definitions, as it deserved more than a simple mention in a long list of poems.


jim : )

ab·struse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-strs, b-)
adj.

Difficult to understand; recondite. See Synonyms at ambiguous.

I believe it was a commentary
make(ing) vague your intentions
(to the enemy)

see also def. of meaning 1a; 1b., and my comment

I put forth to you, Sack started the "vague" thread as a provocation, to start a thinking process, an examination of what is done, does anybody think about impact on the audience, or is it "I know it when I see it" and "you either get it or you don't".
Often, I don't get it or see it, sometimes I want to be shown. You could have illustrated what you saw at the beginning of the thread.
I am here to learn, I think I have the ability to grasp subltety. (no?)
I also write, with the hope in some of them, you should feel vaguely uneasy.

 

[jthserra]

Re: Re: Ah... but once again, the subtleties

I also write, with the hope in some of them, you should feel vaguely uneasy.

Ah, but only if you are subtle enough in your writing, otherwise I am simply uneasy. : )


jim : )

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Re: Re: Re: Ah... but once again, the subtleties

Ah, but only if you are subtle enough in your writing, otherwise I am simply uneasy. : )


jim : )

seems to be a trait with you!
whimpers, moans, and 5 dollar words,
go back to your shrink....AGAIN!
Maybe he can prescribe something
to help you! <grin>

 

[annaswirls]

am I in the circle?

whooo hooo! I got my first "vague" comment! I was worried about beinng left out.

I'll see you one vague and raise you an esoteric!

I am just being playful, not bitter or anything like that, seriously. I appreciate anyone who takes time to read and comment on anything I write.

 

[annaswirls]

it seems to me overall, that something that is vague or subtle may have the same effect on the reader, the difference comes in the writers intention (or lack thereof)

where did this whole vague plague start anyway? I have never heard the words used so much before in my entire life put together!

I do not like to question reviewers or critiques or commentors, that is not really the job of the writer, in my opinion. Is it okay to ask for clarification?

I do not want to seem argumentative towards taste, it is beyond dispute, but I also feel intrusive even asking for an explanation of what a reviewers interpretation of a description. They do enough work just getting the reviews out there let alone answer questions.

Do you think it is okay to ask, in a non-argumentative manner, for clarification over comments in order to see the point of view someone has of my poem?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Do you think it is okay to ask, in a non-argumentative manner, for clarification over comments in order to see the point of view someone has of my poem?

It's always OK to ask.