Subs and the right to say no

[Cirrus]

First let it be said that I'm not asking this question for any reason in particular, and I'm not in the situation myself, but it's kind of been kicking around in my mind for a while.

As subs, most of us set limits. Hard limits are something I would never, ever do, soft limits can be pushed. But occasionally something comes up that hasn't been discussed.

WD's thread brought this to mind again...for example, I would not participate in water sports of any type, either giving or receiving. No way, no how. But what if it were to come up?

My Dom says that in relationships, you know you really love the other person when you think first of their feelings, wants and needs, sexual or otherwise. I agree with him, for the most part. For example, during these damned infections I keep getting I make sure he's satisfied because there's no sense in both of us suffering even though we can't have sex. I like giving him pleasure, and I like doing things he enjoys, even if I can't get as much pleasure back.

But...if he were to suggest water sports...or me (or Him) having sex with another woman...or scat play. I wouldn't do any of those. Ever. Not even for him. I would respect it as his desire, but I just couldn't do it.

I know anyone, sub or Dom, has the right to set a limit or say no, but if it's happened to you, how did you do it if it wasn't something talked about previously? What was your sub or Dom's reaction? Did s/he keep pushing it or bringing it up? Did you fight about it? Did you eventually give in and if so why?

 

[Lancecastor]

Just Say No?

I think "no" is a wonderful word....

It's empowering.

It's concise.

It's easy to spell.

It's rarely misunderstood.

But most everyone has a hard time saying it.

In a TrulyLovingRelationship, the word No is rarely used.

So....to say "I'd never do this or that..." when you're talking about what your lover might hypothetically ask you to do for him or her someday...might just be a complete waste of time.

Because....in a TLR, it's neither very likely your TL will ask you to do something you won't do for him/her....nor is it very likely you won't want to do what makes your TL happy.

So, when it comes to TL, I say never say never, cuz you never know.

I've never had the desire to piss on anyone I've loved....but if I did, I'd imagine we'd both be okay with it...otherwise I wouldn't want to do it.

Scat I can't imagine...but then again, until my daughter was born I hadn't even touched much poop, so who knows?

On the other hand....when it comes to people I don't love....No becomes an easy, wonderful word.

Conclusion: Everyone can and should say No whenever they want...but TL reduces the number of things one says No to.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

I personally have several hard limits, as well as some soft ones. Master has the same himself. Some of our limits are the same some not. We have found that communication has been key in not interupting play. So far there hasn't been anything come up during play that we haven't talked about already.

However, I know should something ever come up during play that I just can't deal with....I can and will say no, and I know that Master will honor that.

dixi

 

[Ebonyfire]

To me

the right to say no is a given. That is why I like what Mistress Steele (and others) say about consent.

Paraphrasing, consent has to re-established each time you engage in D/s. Just because I said yes today, does not mean I will say yes tomorrow. You always have the right to withdraw consent. You always what the right to say no instead of yes.

As for saying what I will or will not do, over the years my list has gotten very small indeed. I guess I have gotten more perverse over the years.

Ebony

 

[artful]

Re: Just Say No?

I think "no" is a wonderful word....

It's empowering.

It's concise.

It's easy to spell.

It's rarely misunderstood.

But most everyone has a hard time saying it.

In a TrulyLovingRelationship, the word No is rarely used.

So....to say "I'd never do this or that..." when you're talking about what your lover might hypothetically ask you to do for him or her someday...might just be a complete waste of time.

Because....in a TLR, it's neither very likely your TL will ask you to do something you won't do for him/her....nor is it very likely you won't want to do what makes your TL happy.

So, when it comes to TL, I say never say never, cuz you never know.

I've never had the desire to piss on anyone I've loved....but if I did, I'd imagine we'd both be okay with it...otherwise I wouldn't want to do it.

Scat I can't imagine...but then again, until my daughter was born I hadn't even touched much poop, so who knows?

On the other hand....when it comes to people I don't love....No becomes an easy, wonderful word.

Conclusion: Everyone can and should say No whenever they want...but TL reduces the number of things one says No to.

I pretty much agree with Lance's philosophy,...I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here to remind
all,...Dom's have hard limits too. Discussion and communication is paramount in setting our hard limits. Mine haven't changed much over the years,...but I feel the relationship I am in with Dream is gonna do some major changes to my hard limits in a few more areas.

 

[cellis]

Cirrus

This is just my take on this, but I have limits hard and soft and then I have those things I want to explore but am either too ashamed or too shy to do on my own.

The poly thing is one example. Before I ever met Himself, I knew I wanted to explore some part of D/s with another woman or women.

I came here met lots of women I really admire and began to accept that part of myself.

I would not, however, have pushed the issue if Himself had not done so for me. I was willing just to let things be as they were. He, however, saw and accepted the needs I had and has ever since encouraged me to seek out these experiences,

We do this together, although, I have his permission to indulge without him, I prefer him to be a part of the other relationship.

Could I say "no" if I didn't want to do it? Of course. And when he found someone I had absolutely no interest in, I refused to even consider the possibility with this person.

I can always so and mean no and it will be accepted.

That is my right!

 

[Shadowsdream]

Lancecastor has covered the question with amazing clarity.

No today can be maybe tomorrow and yes next week.

Limits change, sometimes with the gaining of more trust or the realization of less trust.

But NO is NO.

It should be respected and appreciated for it's honesty.

 

[Desdemona]

I agree that limits change and that anything can be re-negotiated. My Dom and I discussed this concept very very early. One major building block of love and trust for us is the ability for me to say no. I trust him to respect it if I do say no. He trusts me to say no when it is important to me.

 

[Kuurspet]

if it's happened to you, how did you do it if it wasn't something talked about previously? What was your sub or Dom's reaction? Did s/he keep pushing it or bringing it up? Did you fight about it? Did you eventually give in and if so why?

When I first started out, I had a whole list of limits. Those have pretty much faded away to where I have only one really: no play with children, or people who look like children, or people pretending to be children. There are things I would prefer not to do (scat, enemas, catheters - hmmm....I see a trend here), but if M wanted to do them, I would. And what I would love about it, is that he was pushing the issue and "forcing" me to do them - that's a thrill for me.

He, however, has quite a few more limits than I do, or rather, things he is not interested in, or not comfortable with. And in retrospect, I have to say that I keep pushing it and bringing it up. We don't fight about it, but usually, he comes around to trying it sometime. Ours is a love relationship, and we both want the other one to be happy. It has, on occasion, taken him years to become interested enough to do something I've wanted to do. And sometimes he's tried it, and said nope - not doing it again. At that point, I stop pushing. But most of the time, he's enjoyed the new activity and wanted to continue.

It's hard being the kinkier one in the relationship - I want what I want, but I don't want to be pushy, and I did agree that he could call the shots, but basically I'm selfish....and on and on.

K

 

[Quint]

It's hard being the kinkier one in the relationship - I want what I want, but I don't want to be pushy, and I did agree that he could call the shots, but basically I'm selfish....and on and on.

Oh yes. Total sympathy. How have you dealt with having fewer "NO"s than your partner? How willing is he to negotiate, and how quickly do his limits change from mostly-hard to soft? I think that it's more frustrating for the sub to desire things the Dom/me has no interest in than the other way around, because ideally the sub would be getting some degree of pleasure just from doing something the Dom/me REALLY wants to do (hence the 0, 1, and 2 on the checklists). As it is, the Dom/me has no obligation to change their desires to meet their sub's, and so the limits are likely to remain. Is this simply a personal observation or does it seem to be true for others?

 

[WillowPuss]

I have not had to say no to Robuck yet, but am certain he would honour that.

Depending on what I said no to, we might then discuss it to find out why I said no.


Quint - to address your last question - perhaps I am fortunate in my Dom, but I have found that he is willing to push his limits along with mine.

 

[Kuurspet]

Oh yes. Total sympathy. How have you dealt with having fewer "NO"s than your partner? How willing is he to negotiate, and how quickly do his limits change from mostly-hard to soft?

I bring the topic up and we discuss it. A couple of weeks later I'll search out some erotica about the topic and send it to him. We discuss it again. At that point he'll tell me it's either something he'd consider, or to stop bringing it up. On occasion he will surprise me months or years later by introducing it into a session (dog training was one of those things). He doesn't have a lot of limits - no age play, my same limits about kids, scat. To my surprise, he is not interested in blood play (he collects knives so I figured it would be a natural fit).

Many of our favorites were things I wanted to try, and he came to love - sometimes more than me! These include the violet wand, the neuro-wheel, and breath play.

K

 

[morninggirl5]

The No's are one of the reasons i like the checklist at bondage.com so well. It's so precise that it gives lots and lots of room for discussion and negotiation about what your limits are separately and together.

One of my absolute hard limits is involving others in a relationship. It's something i can easily say no to and readily explain why for me it would be emotionally unhealthy. It's something i've discussed at length with someone and i feel certain he understands and respects my feelings. Would he later push me on it? At this point, i'm not sure, but i know that if it was brought up again, it would be as a topic of discussion.

 

[cymbidia]

Re: To me

As for saying what I will or will not do, over the years my list has gotten very small indeed. I guess I have gotten more perverse over the years.

Ditto. However, each new partner is a new chance to try things one could not do, for some reason, with a previous partner. If one is in a long-term relationship, Lance's TLR, then one simply talks through the places that don't mesh, one waits out the jagged moments of non-matching needs, and one focuses on the wild variety of sensations that do work between you.

It's amazing to think that any two people ever even mostly mesh in terms of sexual/emotinal needs. Sexality is so incredibly individualistic, after all, and we're all so very different with respect to our facing new challenges. Dominants, responsible for our safety every step of the way, might be less inclined to hard charge into something new and potentially dangerous than are we submissives, safe and secure in thier care of us.

Ongoing, open-minded, accepting discussion is one good way to come together on issues of disparate sexual needs. Even then, both people have to be prepared to wait until thier partner is ready, however long that takes. To do the kinds of things we do with an unwilling partner, or one that's been coerced into the play in some manner, is not only unfair to them and to the reality of the emotion between you both, but could very likely be the source of tensions for a long time to come.

Talk it out, wait it out, be prepared to put it aside - over and over: that's my way.

 

[artful]

It is simply AMAZING what communication-patience-
knowledge-care-and honesty can do.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Good bump perhaps?

 

[MastrJ]

My sub and I did the checklist at Bondage.com. Most of our hard limits meshed up very well and the soft limits were pretty similar on the whole. Not exact, but I didn't feel as though there were any glaring differences. However, I feel my sub always has the right to say NO. If she does, whatever it is doesn't, and shouldn't happen.

 

[JooJoo]

i know this sounds stupid, but i dun rly say no... i just... dun do it, in my opinion being yelled at and punished is better then doing something that would make u hate yourself, or lose some respect for yourself, or scare u. totally gross ya out, etc,

but i also agree with that total love relationship thing (it's like the second or third post in the forum i think) that if you're in a "total love relationship" you won't hafta say "no" many times

 

[ownedsubgal]

of course as a slave, i do not have the right to say no. but even when i was an unowned submissive, free and single, i could never bring myself to refuse someone, to say no. it's just not in my nature. the best i was ever able to do, when i was in a situation i really really did not want to be in, when i wanted things not to happen or to stop, would be to come up with various excuses, hoping the person would have a heart and leave me be. but, that was never once effective. when i discovered i was a submissive, i would tell people (and myself) that i had all these various limits, and while it was true that those were things that i either did not wish to do/have done to me, or things i was simply ethically opposed to, if i were ever placed in the situation, i would never stop someone from doing what they wanted. so, even when one has the "right" to say no, sometimes their submissiveness simply does not give them the ability to do so.

 

[mellian]

since i have no experience, there is various limits i am not sure yet where to set it, but for some things, i know where my limits lies.

-mellian

...hmmmm, no....

 

[Etoile]

since i have no experience, there is various limits i am not sure yet where to set it, but for some things, i know where my limits lies.

Have you ever seen the Submissive BDSM Play Partner Checklist that was created by the late Tammad Rimilia? It might be helpful to you in determining where your limits might lie.

 

[FungiUg]

In my experience, limits change, and often a submissive doesn't really know her limits until they are challenged by a dominant.

So I always reserve the right for a submissive to say "no" or "stop" at ANY time. Plus that also ensures that I know she is, at all times, KEEN on what is happening.

Of course, if she says no to everything, then we have a negotiation on our hands as to whether there's actually a submissive relationship there or not.

 

[mellian]

Have you ever seen the Submissive BDSM Play Partner Checklist that was created by the late Tammad Rimilia? It might be helpful to you in determining where your limits might lie.

thanks, that does help

took me like an hour or more to answer all of them, with more than just yes or no answers, lol.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mellian/34983.html#cutid1

-mellian

 

[angela146]

Have you ever seen the Submissive BDSM Play Partner Checklist that was created by the late Tammad Rimilia? It might be helpful to you in determining where your limits might lie.

I love it, Etoile! Thank you!

In addition to it's intended purpose, it also can serve as a menu of things to try in the future. I could imagine one or the other of us printing it out, circling some of the things on the list and putting it where the other could find it. In fact...

 

[Etoile]

I love it, Etoile! Thank you!

In addition to it's intended purpose, it also can serve as a menu of things to try in the future. I could imagine one or the other of us printing it out, circling some of the things on the list and putting it where the other could find it. In fact...

Glad you enjoyed it! I'm sure it's been used for that purpose many, many times - not unlike the purity tests!