Submission without L-O-V-E

[Krinaia]

Awhile back, almost a year ago, before I had given control to anyone, before I had received my first kiss, before I’d had my beliefs confirmed that I would crave to be under someone’s dominance… I began playing with ideas of love and dominance. I wrote a story which I never submitted about a submissive that though she cares for her dominant, is unable to love him – to give him her heart. So she leaves him.

For me – for my submission to be complete, I would have to give my heart to man. I would have to love him, not only as a friend and mentor but in the way that … in that describable way which you only read about and many suspect doesn’t exist. But it’s there, in the movies, in books, in poetry and your heart races when you read of it and you hope that it’s real, that it’s true and that it will happen to you.

Tonight I had a conversation with a friend, okay; mostly I just pelted him with these questions…


Is it possible to completely submit to a man that you do not fully love?

Is it possible to dominate a woman who does not love you? (Or switch the sexes if you’re a Domme.)

If you were a dominant that loved your submissive passionately but she was unable to give you her heart – how would it change you? How would it change your dominance of her?

If she could only love you as a friend and cares for you – would it be love? Or is it not complete love? Could you take only that for a lifetime? Could you dominate her mind and body but never be allowed her heart?

edited for spelling errors - sorry folks!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Submitting to a man (in my case) without affection from him, not to mention love, lasts about 2 weeks for me.

I'm sure the answer is different for everyone.

But for me, if I don't feel something close to love, even affection, it holds nothing for me. As much as I miss submitting to someone, I can't settle for just that.

 

[cutedemon]

I have to love the man I am submitting to, otherwise why am I allowing myself to be vunerable in front of him?

 

[Krinaia]

I think that varies from person to person. I could submit without loving. I would expect to fall in love through my submission, or at least hope to.

I am more interested, to tell the truth, in hearing a dominant's point of view. I know how a submissive might or could act based on my own experiences and feelings as a submissive - in the least I can hopefully relate to most other submissives and understand their own feelings on this. But I can't tell you how the mind of a dominant works. That to me, is a mystery worth exploring. But I thank you for your honest answer.

And ask you this - do you fall in love first and then submit? Or do you submit and fall in love?

And you can exposse your vulnerability for many reasons. One of which may be, to just do it - to get it done, to say to yourself, I can. I know that sounds odd. But I lost my virginity to a friend - my first kiss, my first bondage, my first sex -everything I have done was with him. I do not love him passionatley but through the things we did together, I have come to love him in a different way. And always will. He gave me myself. Sound odd?

 

[cutedemon]

Fell in love, then submitted to Him.

 

[Krinaia]

Fell in love, then submitted to Him.

lol... do i have to pry it out of you? tell me more!!!! lol.

was in vanilla love and then he brought in d/s slowly? and you did it because you wanted it and also becaus ehe did and you loved him?

these sort of things make all the diference in this sort of hypothetical situation...

my questions regard mostly someone or a couple that have entered into a relationship - and then one falls in love, the dominant, but not the submission - and what happens to them and their realtionship as a result therein.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I can't possibly see going into the whole complex thingio without a huge ammount of emotional chemistry which might very well lead to love or at least something loveish.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I think that varies from person to person. I could submit without loving. I would expect to fall in love through my submission, or at least hope to.

<snip>

And ask you this - do you fall in love first and then submit? Or do you submit and fall in love?

Again, I have to say, speaking only for myself ... if there is no affection between me and a Dom, submitting does not happen. And conversly, I have to feel that I am cared about and for.

It's a given for me, that I will not submit to a Dom who I feel no affection for, and when those feelings are not reciprocated, I can't stay in the relationship. No matter how strong the need to submit is for me... I can't stay in that kind of a situation.

There will be different responses because none of us are alike or have the same needs and desires to fulfill.

 

[Krinaia]

Right... but let's say you started the relationship liking each other, caring about one another and having affection for each other. It's not like you're two cold fish...

But one of you develops love for the other - you being the dominant. And the submisssive never does. The submissive can't and won't and will never love you, the dominant. But you love her, you wish to consume her, you want to be one with her. Whatever that feels like - and she is willing to submit to you, perhaps unsure for how long - is that enough? Would it change your dominance? Would you become an unsafe dom, wanting to spank it into her, fuck it into? Make her love you? Or would you release her? Would you take control, assess the situation, and decide you can't continue the relationship?

What what would that do to a dominant, what would happen to the dominant whose submissive did not fall in love with him as he fell in love with her? That's the question I'd like an answer to.

 

[shaymless]

By love, do you mean romantic love or affectionate, caring, etc love?

One of the longest standing relationships in my circle of acquaintances is a hetero fem slave who serves a hetero Fem Dom. That they love each other is without question but obviously, their sexual and romantic relationships occur outside of this one.

I think that for the depth of trust that's necessary, it would be difficult to submit without there being love...at least I can't think of anyone in my life that I trust with any kind of depth that I don't have some sort of feelings of love for....but I don't believe it has to be a romantic love.

Ideally, though, I would love to find a life partner who was also my Dominant. But I could belong to someone that I didn't have romantic feelings toward with no problem, as long as they also didn't have expectations of romantic love.


shay

 

[Krinaia]

I'm talking about the big LOVE... the romantic, LOVE, the love that makes movies and books and girls eat ice cream and cry in front of the tv and wish they were in L-O-V-E.

Does it exist? I'm not certain, I hope so.

But the question is what would a DOMINANT do if his sub found herself unable to love him in that way when he loved her in that way? If she only cared for him in an affectionate way. Could he settle? Would his dominance of her change.

 

[MastrJ]

I don't think I could maintain a relationship for very long if the sub didn't love me in return. I would also have to say that it might inspire me towards possibly unsafe activity. The reason I say this comes from the first girlfriend I spanked. We were having sex and I noticed she wasn't really into it. The relationship had been going downhill for a couple of weeks, and I knew things were coming to an end. So, irritated at her, I started to spank her to encourage to 'get into it' a little more. I did it out of anger. I didn't spank to hurt, but I still did it in anger. Fortunately, we found out she really liked to be spanked while having sex, so the relationship lasted for a bit longer. However, the relationship did end.

With my sub now, I don't think the relationship would work without the love. She has opened herself up to me in ways that make her and her emotions extremely vulnerable. I've opened myself up in similar ways to her. Without love I don't see how this could work. We could have our little scenes together, but there wouldn't be any reason for either of us to push our boundaries or be imaginative for one another. My love for her does make it hard for me to punish her, but it doesn't prevent me from it. I'm just reluctant to unless necessary. At this point, my love for my submissive also makes it difficult for me to inflict pain when we play. I know she is giving herself in trust to me and I don't want to damage or hurt that trust in any way.

 

[Netzach]

I think unrequited romantic love from Dom to sub is a no-go. It places the Dominant at a weakness, it will influence his/her behavior in weird ways, it's impossible to feel like you are really in control of someone when you want Romantic love from them and they aren't giving it, and you will probably find yourself trying to force or coerce this lovely delicate thing that doesn't respond to force or coercion.

In the other direction, I think it can work. If you are a submissive romantically infatuated with a Dominant who will never reciprocate, if you have an emotionally masochistic aspect, it can even enhance the control, enmeshment, and devotion.

So there. It's not fair, after all.

I personally believe that D/s is totally possible in fact a hell of a lot simpler and purer when you are NOT in a romantic entanglement.

My relationship with M is much messier, weirder, less linear and at times ...more frustrating than it's ever been with ANY other submissive. I'm not in total charge, I'm not in total rigorous control. I can't be, because love factors into any decision I make, softens me often, changes the stakes, forces a more egalitarian more flexible stance. This may not be true in some partnerships, but I know it is true for me. I'll take total obedience from people I don't live with...my partner is a partner, at the end of the day.

Whereas with someone who loves me as a friend, or a casual, dear but not exclusive lover, the lines are clearer. "Fuck off" or "well then we don't do SM" or "well then don't serve me" doesn't hold the same weight.

That's the thing. I've loved some of them in that head over heels stupid way, even....but not one has mattered to me quite the same.

 

[NCShin]

I don't think there has to be LOVE between a dominant and a submissive. I think that if there is one way love in either direction it is bad in any type of relationship, be that BDSM or not.

That isn't to say i would want to dominate any woman who wanted to submit though. There does have to be a mutual attraction to each other.

I know that some say that D/s is not sexual for them, or at least not totally sexual. For me however, it is highly sexual so a mutual desire for each other has to be there.

 

[Krinaia]

I think unrequited romantic love from Dom to sub is a no-go. It places the Dominant at a weakness, it will influence his/her behavior in weird ways, it's impossible to feel like you are really in control of someone when you want Romantic love from them and they aren't giving it, and you will probably find yourself trying to force or coerce this lovely delicate thing that doesn't respond to force or coercion.

In the other direction, I think it can work. If you are a submissive romantically infatuated with a Dominant who will never reciprocate, if you have an emotionally masochistic aspect, it can even enhance the control, enmeshment, and devotion.

So there. It's not fair, after all.

I personally believe that D/s is totally possible in fact a hell of a lot simpler and purer when you are NOT in a romantic entanglement.

My relationship with M is much messier, weirder, less linear and at times ...more frustrating than it's ever been with ANY other submissive. I'm not in total charge, I'm not in total rigorous control. I can't be, because love factors into any decision I make, softens me often, changes the stakes, forces a more egalitarian more flexible stance. This may not be true in some partnerships, but I know it is true for me. I'll take total obedience from people I don't live with...my partner is a partner, at the end of the day.

Whereas with someone who loves me as a friend, or a casual, dear but not exclusive lover, the lines are clearer. "Fuck off" or "well then we don't do SM" or "well then don't serve me" doesn't hold the same weight.

That's the thing. I've loved some of them in that head over heels stupid way, even....but not one has mattered to me quite the same.

Some of these things are the things that I thought... a dominant struggling to control and force love coul dbe a dangerous thing. And too I often wonder if my masochistic streak leaks into my emotions - if I want unrequited love. I don't like that thought. Lol... it woul dbe miserable. But perhaps, for some - there is happiness in misery.

But - is the relationship no longer falling under the sane part of SSC? Under either of the above options? And which, do you think would be the one to end it? Which should end it? Or are there different kinds of love that can make a relationship last forever that aren't romantic - especially in a bdsm relationship?

NZ, your thread on leaving romantic love out of the bdsm equation, makes think that those women with vanilla husbands and masters on the side - are enviable. Then again, I've seen romantic relationship that do work. And then again, I've seen some that I think don't work but it isn't my place to say so.

NZ, does your submissive mind that your love for him sometimes keeps you from punishing him or perhaps keep you from pushing him deeper into his submission? Is it that you cannot objectify him? Or is he glad of it?

I think perhaps, the unrequited love of a dominant would be a horrendous yet beautiful thing to explore.

 

[Netzach]

But - is the relationship no longer falling under the sane part of SSC?

Maybe, maybe not. Sane is relative and individual in the extreme. Most vanilla relationships fall outside the sane in SSC, and they don't give a rat's ass about consent if you look at the games people play with each others' heads.

And which, do you think would be the one to end it?

Whoever can't take it anymore. Read "Venus in Furs" if you never have, or at least a synopsis.

Which should end it? Or are there different kinds of love that can make a relationship last forever that aren't romantic - especially in a bdsm relationship?

Yes. I sometimes think true platonic love is the elusive thing that most people lack, not romance. I mean platonic love so inspring that it inspires you to go above and beyond. Some people have a mentor or a friend that makes this make sense, a lot scratch their heads in complete mystification when the idea of "mentor" has been made so corporate and so casual...but I think there's a depth to non-romantic love that doesn't get explored often in this society.

Romantic love, to me, is essentially a selfish and vain one, as deep and intense as it may be. Love without romance is where self sacrifice can come in, where your immediate gratification isn't the whole piece.

I'm Dominant, Sadistic, totally vain, and ruthless....yet I don't think that my immediate gratification is the important thing when it comes to really guiding and loving a submissive individual.

NZ, your thread on leaving romantic love out of the bdsm equation, makes think that those women with vanilla husbands and masters on the side - are enviable. Then again, I've seen romantic relationship that do work. And then again, I've seen some that I think don't work but it isn't my place to say so.

Takes all kinds doesn't it?

NZ, does your submissive mind that your love for him sometimes keeps you from punishing him or perhaps keep you from pushing him deeper into his submission? Is it that you cannot objectify him? Or is he glad of it?

Glad of it. He usually thinks of my happiness and comfort in any situation right off the bat, he serves me and is attentive to me without my ever having pressed the issue, he may annoy me at times, but I don't do "punishment." You're making me happy or you're not, as a submissive, and if you keep making me unhappy, well screw this project.

I don't mean for things like leaving the toilet up or not doing the dishes, I mean like "God this person is pissing me off more often than not..." Who needs that in any relationship?

I can't objectify him because I know exactly how miserable objectifying him would make him. I have no problem objectifying past partners who reveled in the prospect. It's an SSC type of thing, you know?


I think perhaps, the unrequited love of a dominant would be a horrendous yet beautiful thing to explore. [/B]

In fiction or something? Way more interesting than shiny happy Master loves me functional but sappy romance as SM fiction that you see so much of.

 

[ownedsubgal]

for me this question is like asking, "can you be black without love?"...i was born black, it's who i am, who i always will be, and is utterly beyond my control. i am a submissive always and will naturally submit regardless of the situation. i was submissive in all of my vanilla relationships because that is just who i am. i didn't know anything about D/s then, had never heard the term "a submissive", and did not have a Dominant in my life. none of that has ever had anything to do with my submission.

now for me to feel happy and whole inside, i need love. for me to give my complete self to a person, i must be madly in love, and they must feel the same towards me. but my submission is not tied to my emotions or my needs. i can submit, and could submit even as a slave, without any emotional attachment whatsoever.

 

[Quint]

I've found Netzach's argument to be true. It's no secret that T is more "in love" with me than I am with him. I could delve into the whys of that--mostly because he's happier with who he is than I am with who I am, I think--but the point is that he knows that our emotions are imbalanced. He'd marry me tomorrow if I'd say yes; I wouldn't. Has that shifted the power paradigm? Not obviously, no. I keep conversation open outside the bedroom and I don't fake anything. And I do love him, in the affectionate, friendly, highly respectful, "we have a wonderful thing going here and I think I would really be missing out on something great if I ended the relationship" kind of way. So it isn't empty. He deals phenomenally well; he lets me feel what I feel and trusts that someday I will change my mind. Doesn't force the issue.

But it is frustrating. I can't look at the love he has for me and believe that True Love doesn't exist, but neither can I understand it because I don't feel it. And often I do feel like I have more power than he over the relationship; he would not choose to end it, whereas I might. Thoughts like that are kind of distracting and depressing when I'd like nothing more than to sink into our time together wholeheartedly. So on a more insidious level, yes, it hurts a lot. I don't know if I'll ever love him on the level he does me. I don't know if I won't. It's really hard to make a plan for the future that involves uncertain emotions.

I remember when the situation was reversed--I was completely infatuated with him and he was not as deeply into me. I think I preferred that, for exactly the reason Netzach described. It was exquisitely painful; it gave me something to strive for, to achieve, and in the meantime it was such a tease. This is infinitely more painful, and not in a good way.

 

[Krinaia]

I think perhaps I fear love above all other things. And sometimes submission is a way to hide from it. To hate the one I should love. Just a thought that came to me as I read your post Quint.

A lot of times, I remind myself that universe is more complex than I will ever be able to grasp as is humanity and that I will never have all the answers but that I should still strive to understand. But sometimes, understanding is painful.

I've been thinking about writing that story I mentioned in the first post - to make it deeper. To make it honest and full of the things I'm trying to understand about love. But I don't think it's a story I could finish... I think I would feel as cheated by its ending as I felt by the final chapter of the Story of O.

Do you think equisite pain is possible? Pain so complete it is a thing of beauty and of pleasure?

 

[cutedemon]

lol... do i have to pry it out of you? tell me more!!!! lol.

was in vanilla love and then he brought in d/s slowly? and you did it because you wanted it and also becaus ehe did and you loved him?

these sort of things make all the diference in this sort of hypothetical situation...

We were friends, started hanging out more and more, started kissing, fell in love, it was very vanilla until we started having sex. We had had discussions about d/s and it just clicked that I wanted to be his sub and he wanted me to be his sub.

 

[Krinaia]

Thank you... sounds very sweet.

 

[Krinaia]

I think perhaps I fear love above all other things. And sometimes submission is a way to hide from it. To hate the one I should love. Just a thought that came to me as I read your post Quint.

Okay, I know... quoting myself is weird but I've been thinking about what I said when I said this.

I do fear love. To let go, and lay down your vulnerability so completely. And submission being a way to hide from that - because first I would submit all the other parts of myself and try to save that to last. But I would be honest and open and share myself - because that's the way I am, even when afraid to do so. I almost always work on trying to overcome that. But.... I think the fear and the pain of doing so is tied in with that mashocistic part of myself. I'm not usually a thrill seeker, I don't like doing dangerous or reckless things. I like my feet on the ground. But when it comes to love, and giving my heart - maybe I am a little reckless, and also a little too controlling at the same time. Because if I fall in love, I give up the most vaulable bit of control over myself - but by not falling in love, I put myself in pain.

I dunno, just ramblings... but does it make sense to anyone?

 

[Quint]

God, yes. I'd like to write more on this, but for now, I think I understand exactly where you're coming from.

 

[ethereal~minx]

Okay, I know... quoting myself is weird but I've been thinking about what I said when I said this.

I do fear love. To let go, and lay down your vulnerability so completely. And submission being a way to hide from that - because first I would submit all the other parts of myself and try to save that to last. But I would be honest and open and share myself - because that's the way I am, even when afraid to do so. I almost always work on trying to overcome that. But.... I think the fear and the pain of doing so is tied in with that mashocistic part of myself. I'm not usually a thrill seeker, I don't like doing dangerous or reckless things. I like my feet on the ground. But when it comes to love, and giving my heart - maybe I am a little reckless, and also a little too controlling at the same time. Because if I fall in love, I give up the most vaulable bit of control over myself - but by not falling in love, I put myself in pain.

I dunno, just ramblings... but does it make sense to anyone?

ohhh you make my heart feel so deeply what you say, reminds me of this song...

"...and I would be the one
to hold you down
kiss you so hard
I'll take your breath away
and after, I'd wipe away the tears
just close your eyes..."

 

[ethereal~minx]

Right... but let's say you started the relationship liking each other, caring about one another and having affection for each other. It's not like you're two cold fish...

But one of you develops love for the other - you being the dominant. And the submisssive never does. The submissive can't and won't and will never love you, the dominant. But you love her, you wish to consume her, you want to be one with her. Whatever that feels like - and she is willing to submit to you, perhaps unsure for how long - is that enough? Would it change your dominance? Would you become an unsafe dom, wanting to spank it into her, fuck it into? Make her love you? Or would you release her? Would you take control, assess the situation, and decide you can't continue the relationship?

What what would that do to a dominant, what would happen to the dominant whose submissive did not fall in love with him as he fell in love with her? That's the question I'd like an answer to.

well, imho *laughing* I think this is a wonderful position to be in~~~ perfect in almost every way
unfortunately I cannot answer right now but I will be back later when I have more time *smiles*