Submission a Gift or What?

[SubKekiLee]

I Was having a discussion with friends... about thier opinions on Submission and Dominance. Is Submissionand or Dominance a gift and if so why and if not what are your views? Thanks..

 

[BiBunny]

Nope. No gift. At their simplest levels, they're just personality traits or a set of behaviors a person engages in, depending on which school of psychological thought you subscribe to.

I'm going to sit back and wait for questions or the posts of others before I say more because I'm not sure where I want to go with this.

 

[bholderman]

Its the gift that keeps on giving!

 

[DeservingBitch]

For those interested, here's an article that addresses this question: The Gift Theory.

 

[nh23]

Ok.. I'm going to try to make this as coherent as I can..lol. No I don't see submission as a gift. Nor do I see Dominance as a gift. A submissive is what I am. What I'm giving to him is nothing special..it's me. What he is giving me is all he is, I give the same in return. I try to make wise decisions about whom I choose to submit to, but not because someone may not deserve my "gift". I just think it should be someone I'm compatible with. I tend to think that the idea of "submission is a gift" romanticizes something that I just see as a part of everyday life. Yeah D/s is a beautiful thing, but there are good times and bad times, just like every part of life. I love the bad as much as I love the good. I never got a choice of whether I wanted to be submissive or not. It's a part of me, it's who I am. I can't undo it. Nor would I want to. I love this part of myself. I just think that is part of my rational as why I don't see it as a gift. I am giving him who I am..nothing more..nothing less.

 

[the captians wench]

I don't know that I would say it's a gift, but I don't know that I would totally say that it's not either.

i don't like this idea that submission is this great gift and only the one who is truely worthy of it shall have it of me. But then that may partly be because I have different levels of submission for different people I am, and have been involved with.

I think of submission a lot like I think of love. While I don't call love a gift, certian depths of love are reserved for those who are truely dear to me or I guess "worthy" of it for lack of better terms, and so are certian levels of my submission. Casual playmates get the love of friends, and the submission of a bottom, loyal and true for the scene with in the terms of the scene. Those I call love and sir have my deepest affection and my truest submission. And then there are some imbetween.

I love each person differently, I do not love my mom as I love Jounar, and so on. My submission is the same way.

 

[nh23]

Here is a really good article that I think explains my thoughts a lot better than I can.

The Imagined Gift

Copyright Screamer 1998 All rights reserved

(As article appeared in SandMutopian Guardian Magazine, 1998)




I’m not going to say I’ve always been into BDSM. I am, however, going to say that my earliest fantasies were such that would lead me to believe I knew along that this was the kind of lifestyle I wanted. I can remember being about seven or eight, and shutting myself into my closet. I would pretend I was the kidnapped princess, and that the thieves that had captured me wanted me to do all sorts of ‘things’ with them. Now, at seven or eight, I didn’t know what ‘things’ they meant, but I certainly knew what part of my body they were going to do them to. I would spend hours in that closet.

I think that’s when my parents started to worry.

Now, at the ripe old age of 33, here I am. I am a submissive with a wonderful Dominant. I am a Top, beginning explorations of dominating others. I am a stepmother, a computer geek, a great cook, and a housecleaner for four. In addition, I run a BDSM website, write fiction and non-fiction, and spend a great deal of time sending and answering email.

My submission is not a gift to anyone but myself.



When you bloom and blossom in the on-line community, (as opposed to those who discover BDSM before they got a computer) the way I did, you begin with very certain beliefs. You start out thinking that when you submit to a Dominant, you’re giving him some great gift, and for that you should be cherished, loved and held above any other life form on the planet. You want him or her to use you to satiate his or her desires, but you want them to do so in such a manner that elevates your status. You want to be owned by someone who appreciates this gift of submission you offer them.

Right?

HA !

I’ve been arguing this theory in the online community for years. It does me no good. People are going to see it as they wish to see it. The plan, simple fact of the matter is this: If a submissive is allowing the Dominant to do things to/for/with her, she obviously wants to do them as well, correct? Maybe not in such a literal way, but in an emotional way.

I know that when I take a hand spanking from Mark, I am most certainly NOT enjoying the pain from it. I hate hand spankings. They hurt. I can’t eroticize that one little iota. However, I continue to take them, and after the pain is over, I’m happy that I did. Why?

Did I give him a gift of submission? Did I take it out of pure selflessness?

No. I did it because he likes it, and because giving your partner something he likes, even when you don’t, is part of any healthy relationship. I do get something out of it, though. I get the pleasure of pleasing him. I get the happiness I feel when I look at him when it’s over, and I see the pride and love in his eyes for me. I get to make him happy.

If it’s a gift for either of us, it’s for both of us.

Mark doesn’t always like romantic movies. But he’ll watch them sometimes, with and for me. Is that a gift? No. Because usually when it’s over, he turns on something with Steven Segall in it, and we watch that together.

That’s an exchange.

Not a gift.

Okay, maybe a gift exchange.

I think all this talk about ‘the gift of submission’ irks me the way that it does, is that it goes against what I feel submission is. It makes it appear as if the Dominant owes you something. As if you’re doing something without any thought to your own needs, wishes, and desires.

That’s not true. You wouldn’t be a submissive if you didn’t want to be one. You’re doing what feels good and natural to you. You’re not making any sacrifices that you didn’t sign on to make. And you’re not doing anything different than our mothers and fathers before us did. You’re giving something to get something in return.

Relationships that last are giving relationships. This is true in vanilla as well as the kink community. Your mother liked tearjerker movies, your father liked westerns. I’m imagining that if they survived the curve and have stayed married all these years, it’s because they did a lot of compromising and giving to each other.

BDSM is no different.

The Dominant gives his dominance. The submissive gives her submission. The two feed off of each other, making the other and their own stronger and more meaningful over time. Two pieces of the same puzzle, drawn together by some invisible force that allows each half to be in their natural state, and allows the other half the opportunity to be in theirs.

That’s all there is to it.

I worry about submissives that hold their ‘gift’ in their lap, saving it for a perfect Dominant. I worry about them because as long as they keep thinking of their chosen lifestyle as a gift, they’re going to continue to sit there with it – alone. I don’t know about anyone else, but the last thing I want kneeling in front of me is a submissive who thinks that he or she is doing me some great favor by being there for me to dominate. I don’t need favors. I need a strong, proud submissive. Someone who looks to me as I look to them for making an intimate connection into this lifestyle we have chosen to call our own.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that submission should not be cherished. What I’m trying to get across is that it should be just as cherished as Dominance. I mean, come on. What good does your submission do you if you keep it all to yourself, and don’t share it with a Dominant? And the reverse is true as well. It’s reciprocation – nothing more, nothing less.

I’m not about to put myself up on a pedestal and proclaim that I am a submissive, and should be treated with the utmost respect and love because I submit. I’m not going to elevate myself to a level that makes me seem better or more holy. Why? Because I’m not. I’m doing exactly what I want to be doing, and with whom I want to be doing it with.

And I can give as well as I get. And if you’re not doing something that ‘does’ it for you in the long run, you’re doing the wrong damn thing.

I give that gift to myself.

 

[serijules]

Gifts are neat, new, wrapped packages that are usually given with no strings attached.

If only submission were that simple!

 

[intothewoods]

For those interested, here's an article that addresses this question: The Gift Theory.

Thanks! I was just about to post - who came up with it anyway?

You know - it seems to me there is this blurry line with us kinksters. In some ways, we're like everyone else, and in some ways, we're differently oriented. But sometimes I feel like there is this self-imposed isolation. I mean, does a gay guy turn to another gay guy and say, my desire to suck cock is a gift! Wait, bad example...

 

[ecstaticsub]

I do think of submission as a gift. Though I see why some people would not. I have only submitted to one man, and that man is the only one who will ever get that gift. I will never take it back. If he ever feels like he doesn't want it anymore that is it up to him. But it will always be his, and never anyone elses.

When I was first collared Daddy referred to my submission as a gift before I heard of the concept. He didn't take my submission by force, I gave it to him because I loved him and wanted to make him happy--a gift. Just like any other gift the giver gets as much pleasure as the person receiving the gift. I am his most cherished, valued and prized posession.

Gifts don't have to be perfect right out of the box. Gifts can be added to, changed a bit, used different ways than originally intended--just like my submission.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is and why people get uptight about it being called a gift. Maybe I do romantisize it a bit. But I could never be a bottom, I could never submit to someone I didn't love.

 

[intothewoods]

Hmm, that article didn't say where it came from. Must go consult google...

 

[nh23]

I do think of submission as a gift. Though I see why some people would not. I have only submitted to one man, and that man is the only one who will ever get that gift. I will never take it back. If he ever feels like he doesn't want it anymore that is it up to him. But it will always be his, and never anyone elses.

When I was first collared Daddy referred to my submission as a gift before I heard of the concept. He didn't take my submission by force, I gave it to him because I loved him and wanted to make him happy--a gift. Just like any other gift the giver gets as much pleasure as the person receiving the gift. I am his most cherished, valued and prized posession.

Gifts don't have to be perfect right out of the box. Gifts can be added to, changed a bit, used different ways than originally intended--just like my submission.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is and why people get uptight about it being called a gift. Maybe I do romantisize it a bit. But I could never be a bottom, I could never submit to someone I didn't love.

I see your point as well. Although I don't see bottoming and submitting as the same thing. Two different ballgames in my eyes. You don't have to submit to bottom.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I see your point as well. Although I don't see bottoming and submitting as the same thing. Two different ballgames in my eyes. You don't have to submit to bottom.

I agree---though in a way a bottom submits on a physical level, just not mental.

 

[BiBunny]

I've never submitted to someone I didn't love, either. I draw a huge line between bottoming and submitting. I've only been owned once, and it'll never happen again. I loved him, I was his, it didn't work out, and that was that. That still doesn't mean I think everything about submission should be warm and fuzzy and over-romanticized, either.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I've never submitted to someone I didn't love, either. I draw a huge line between bottoming and submitting. I've only been owned once, and it'll never happen again. I loved him, I was his, it didn't work out, and that was that. That still doesn't mean I think everything about submission should be warm and fuzzy and over-romanticized, either.

No relationship of any kind can be warm, fuzzy and romantic all the time. I wouldn't want it to be. Gifts can have edges, too

 

[nh23]

I agree---though in a way a bottom submits on a physical level, just not mental.

Yes I agree. It's not the same to me to submit my mind, body, etc to someone, as it is to just bottom. To bottom I have to trust someone with my body, trust that they won't hurt me. To completely and totally submit. I have to trust them with my heart, my mind. Which to me..is giving so much more of myself..It's harder for me to give someone my heart than it is for me to let them top me.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Thanks! I was just about to post - who came up with it anyway?

You mean the article, or the 'gift theory'? If you meant the former, the article is copyrighted by Simon S. Ays, 1999.

 

[intothewoods]

You mean the article, or the 'gift theory'? If you meant the former, the article is copyrighted by Simon S. Ays, 1999.

The latter. The gift theory.

I think it's kind of sexist. Does anyone say "submission is a gift" about or to male subs? Seriously wondering.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I agree with most of the points made in the article linked in my post above.

But the following point he makes is the main reason why I don't see submission as a gift:

In fact, to go a bit deeper, the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) speaks of a gift as: "something, the possession of which is transferred to another without the expectation or receipt of an equivalent."

Now, would any submissive really say that they'd enter into a power exchange relationship where there was no exchange at all? If you didn't receive whatever it is that you consider valuable in return, would you really enter into the relationship? Or would you really stay in it if there was absolutely nothing of any value at all in it for you?

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Gift ? No.

Irrevocable responsibility, socially isolating at times, a burden . Yes.

Life could be so much simpler.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I see it in part as a gift, just as his Dominance is a gift to me...it is given without hope of return and just as with most gifts I give, it was done with a lot of thought and finding just the right gift for the right person in that I was determined to not give it over and over, nor was I going to give it to just anyone, nor was it given with strings attached though given to someone who I knew would appreciate and welcome it, play with it, and find an endless amount of joy in its various uses. It is also a need, but not one I am willing to have fulfilled by whoever comes along and is bearable enough to fill that need temporarily simply because that is not possible, nor is it a need which can be filled easily.

Some might find these previous discussions interesting also.
Is Submission a Gift?

'THE' Gift Exchange/Return


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2233/2052066401_be7d982856_t.jpg Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

The latter. The gift theory.

I think it's kind of sexist. Does anyone say "submission is a gift" about or to male subs? Seriously wondering.

Yeah - I hear some patronizing undertone in 'submission as a gift' as well. It sounds a lot like all the talk about women's virginity as a 'treasure' and a 'wonderful gift' to me. When do we hear about men's virginity as a 'treasure' or a 'gift'?

That being said, I really don't care if someone I'm not involved with wants to see or talk of their submission as a gift.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think it's kind of sexist. Does anyone say "submission is a gift" about or to male subs? Seriously wondering.

LOL, oh yes. We have been very touched by the willingness of a couple of male subs to offer their submission as a gift without thought or expectation of a long list of demands and wants being subscribed to and filled by us.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/2038285476_4d5ef327d4_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Netzach]

It is or it's not. I mainly have a bone to pick with people who are "submissive through and through it's just like my eye color" and then turn around and gift at me.

If you're a prickly, ornery SOB who doesn't cave into anyone other than me, then maybe you can consider it a gift to me.

 

[HottieMama]

Does anyone else but me think we spend WAY too much time analyzing all this shit and not nearly enough time enjoying it?

SKL...this is in no way a "slam" against you. It is just a trend i notice in the community as a whole.