"Sub frenzy" and similar stuff

[Bredon]

Hey,

as you might have noticed, I am a fledgling dom with only little experience. I always had friends who were into BDSM, I went to some public play parties in my 20s, I had a masochist lover once etc. recently I had an online relationship with a sub who was equally inexperienced.
During the relationship ze turned more and more needy and irrational. Ze felt overwhelmed by hir desire, a desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh (for technical reasons).

I used to think that ze was just a bit unstable, but then I have found several texts about "sub frenzy" and the neediness of subs, esp. "virgin" subs, that they fall in love with their first dom easily etc.--

(see f.e. here:
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/Lifestyle/sub_frenzies.htm )

As I havs never heard about these phenomena from my RL BDSM friends I have been wondering:

What is it about that? Is that common? Or does it happen only to poeple who would behave similarly in a vanilla relationship?
How about the "addiction" factor? Can it really overwhelm you?

Being a dom, I'm more on the controlled side, and hir "frenzy" made me even cooler, which made hir more frenzied, etc. which feels like an unhealthy spiral to me.

What do you think about it all?

And if it is common, how do your deal with it (both as a sub, or as a dom)?


Bredon, aka the Worrier

 

[incubus'_sub]

Well, sub space is real. I experienced that & described where I was to my Dom before I knew it had a name or that it happened to other people, but it's not something that happens all the time as fiction would have you believe.

But no, in real life I've never heard of sub frenzy either. Those who write about it rather than do it seem to have a need to express themselves in over the top terms in an effort to convince themselves, & everyone else, of their incredible passion.

In real life you would be part of the majority of Doms who would prefer their subs to be sane, sensible people.

 

[Bredon]

Thanks for your reply--

makes sense in some way-- about RL versus virtual

I was not referring to sub space though, which comes about *during* a scene, but rather about the withdrawal symptoms when you can't have a scene.
It is like a physical need for a sub? I mean, an overwhelming need? Like:
I *need* to get beaten soon or I will behave weirdish?
A strong need that impacts clear thinking, a bit like being in love very much-- where you make a fool out of yourself?

Bredon

 

[Netzach]

When you do SM you do release some brain chemsitry that makes people intense. Romantic feelings surface, irrational attachments emerge. Like you, I am especially pushed away by neediness in people and I have little tolerance for it.

You're entitled to boundaries. News flash. Just last night I was asked for romantic behavior and interaction and I told my slave no, that's not our relationship, and if it is it's because I feel motivated that way, not because you asked.

Being told "no" reinforced the boundaries and the entire nature of the relationship a lot more than a hug, kiss, or a chance to lick me would.

I'm really exhausted by the endless proscriptions that it's the Dom's job to bolster the sub, pet her endlessly on the head, and cave in to every demand for attention or you're a callous bastard.

It is like a physical need for a sub? I mean, an overwhelming need? Like:
I *need* to get beaten soon or I will behave weirdish?

Yeah, at times. And in no ways is your Dom *obligated* to take care of that, either cool it or find someone who plays as often and as hard as you need.

 

[FurryFury]

Yes, this has been mentioned on this board more than once with quite a few, including myself, chiming in to having felt it to one degree or another. I can't find any of the threads right now though.

*pouts and looks confused*

Fury

 

[CutieMouse]

Yeah, at times. And in no ways is your Dom *obligated* to take care of that, either cool it or find someone who plays as often and as hard as you need.

That would sum up my views on the subject of sub frenzy, and with far more politeness than I feel up to at the moment.

 

[celtcdawn]

subbie frenzy

Hey,


I used to think that ze was just a bit unstable, but then I have found several texts about "sub frenzy" and the neediness of subs, esp. "virgin" subs, that they fall in love with their first dom easily etc.--


What is it about that? Is that common? Or does it happen only to poeple who would behave similarly in a vanilla relationship?
How about the "addiction" factor? Can it really overwhelm you?


Bredon, aka the Worrier

You mentioned early on in your post that ze was a novice sub even as you are a novice Dom. Can you remember what you felt like when you discovered that the things you felt were okay...that other folks felt the same thing?

With a submissive, it's like opening a valve. When they discover the freedom that comes with being a submissive...and that it's okay...they want it now. All at once. Like water to a thirsty man. The learning, or the understanding maybe seems to drive them to rush into finding a Dom right now. And usually they are too inexperienced to see red flags, or they blatantly ignore them because nothing bad could happen to them. Unfortunately, sometimes they end up victims.

And I agree a subbie usually falls madly in love with her first Dom. It's the first real connection he or she has to the lifestyle. They don't understand that the first is not always the last. Nor do they understand that as they grow, they change.

Anyway...my two cents on the subject. Does it happen in RL. Yes it does, and the problems inherent with that are they are more easily susceptible to becoming victims. However in balance, they are also more frequently in a postion to be guided in the right direction.

dawnie

 

[MasterPhoenix]

A friiend of rose's discovered she had an interest in BdSM a while back, and she went into a sub frenzy where she was missing red flags right and left.l.. fortunately she did not get harmed over it.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

A friiend of rose's discovered she had an interest in BdSM a while back, and she went into a sub frenzy where she was missing red flags right and left.l.. fortunately she did not get harmed over it.

no she didn't get harmed, but she will not try the D/s relationship again, and she doesn't like that i'm still in it. but 'shrugs' i tried to warn her....she wouldn't listen and it's sad that her experience turned her off from the lifestyle, but such is life i guess?

 

[Aeroil]

You mentioned early on in your post that ze was a novice sub even as you are a novice Dom. Can you remember what you felt like when you discovered that the things you felt were okay...that other folks felt the same thing?

With a submissive, it's like opening a valve. When they discover the freedom that comes with being a submissive...and that it's okay...they want it now. All at once. Like water to a thirsty man. The learning, or the understanding maybe seems to drive them to rush into finding a Dom right now. And usually they are too inexperienced to see red flags, or they blatantly ignore them because nothing bad could happen to them. Unfortunately, sometimes they end up victims.

And I agree a subbie usually falls madly in love with her first Dom. It's the first real connection he or she has to the lifestyle. They don't understand that the first is not always the last. Nor do they understand that as they grow, they change.

Anyway...my two cents on the subject. Does it happen in RL. Yes it does, and the problems inherent with that are they are more easily susceptible to becoming victims. However in balance, they are also more frequently in a postion to be guided in the right direction.

dawnie

Dawnie? Seri's Dawnie?

erm, that's the effect so named "Submissive frenzy", yes, nicely described. Doesn't just happen to girls of course... had a rather unpleasant dose of it myself....

 

[Bredon]

Thank you all for your interesting replies-- I'm trying t make up my mind about this-- as good as I can--
In a vanilla relationship, if anyone would behave that way I would think them a bit crazy. What I try to find out out is: Is that craziness soemwhat normal for a virginal sub?

It is close to impossible to convince my X that ze should calm down a bit-- I'm worried for hir, that ze will go out and get into unsafe situations--
I had no idea that online stuff could cause that in anyone, break that loose-- or I would never have engaged in it--

Any ideas? Or does ze have to work this out on hir own and the best thing that I can do is stay away?

Fury-- If you happen to see those older threads-- I'd be very interested--

*worried*
Bredon

 

[JMohegan]

During the relationship ze turned more and more needy and irrational. Ze felt overwhelmed by hir desire, a desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh (for technical reasons).

People whose needs are not being met in a personal relationship of any flavor act out in various ways. In acting out, a person may become clingy, obsessive, bitchy, withdrawn, unfaithful, etc., etc., etc.

No matter what form the acting out takes, it is always irrational. Why? Because these behaviors are destructive to the relationship, and more importantly they are not addressing the fundamental problem itself.

The problem being: a mismatch in needs, or in the ability to fulfill the needs, of those in the relationship.

how do your deal with it (both as a sub, or as a dom)?

Do not enter into any personal relationship, of any kind or flavor, unless you believe there is a reasonable chance that the needs of both parties will be satisfied in the same.

This is actually easier said than done. Because it requires a lot of patience, self-control, self-awareness, and honesty in the beginning of your interactions, as you get to know one another and discuss whether or not you might be compatible over the long haul.

I'm worried for hir, that ze will go out and get into unsafe situations--
I had no idea that online stuff could cause that in anyone, break that loose-- or I would never have engaged in it--

Any ideas? Or does ze have to work this out on hir own and the best thing that I can do is stay away?

Bredon, I understand your concern and mixed feelings completely. I have been there, so many times.

Over the years I have seen, and still see, so many people who are desperately lonely, needy, floundering, confused, or just plain sad. Only the most hard-hearted could view this and fail to be moved.

And it's so tempting to say: I can help them, even just a little bit. Make them feel better for a while, protect them, etc.

This may seem like kindness, but it's really not. Because this "kindness" will make them fall in love with you even more. Depend on you more, need you more, etc. And that's just the opposite result from what you are trying to achieve.

My advice is: Point hir in the direction of a good support group or source of information. Carefully and honestly explain what you are doing, and why. Then walk away, and walk away completely.

As hard as it is, sometimes *this* is the kindest thing to do.

 

[celtcdawn]

I had no idea that online stuff could cause that in anyone, break that loose-- or I would never have engaged in it--

Any ideas? Or does ze have to work this out on hir own and the best thing that I can do is stay away?

Bredon

In my opinion, it's pretty much a fact of life with respect to this lifestyle. What better place to be exposed to something you always beleived was bad and dirty. And face it, a lot of us beleived exactly that about the things we felt and the fantasies we lived in our minds. To suddenly discover that you are not the only one, and that those thoughts and feelings are okay is a powerful...motivator, (for lack of a better word) for the frenzied feeling.

Best thing is for someone to make the sub understand what she's going through. She's not the first and certainly won't be the last. Now that she has a better understanding of who and what she is, she needs to learn to explore safely. She needs to learn that what makes her wet...may not be as exciting as the anticipation.

dawnie....

 

[JMohegan]

(see f.e. here:
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/Lifestyle/sub_frenzies.htm )

An excerpt from that link:

Fairly quickly the submissive may discover that 'getting their fix', becomes supremely important in their lives. It can leave them irrational, willing to make poor decisions, rash, impulsive and generally stupid. A submissive in a frenzied state is at their most vulnerable to succumbing to the ploys of those less than admirable. They may become easily enthralled, believe themselves 'in love', willing to give over anything (almost literally) in order to fill that enormous void in their life.

Contact with a Dominant, almost any kind will tend to rivet their attention. The very first gift that the submissive gives away here is their common sense.

I realize that Steel is trying to be help others, and that she uses plenty of "cans" and "mays" to avoid absolutes in her text. Even so, on behalf of dozens of submissives whom I have met over the years and known quite well in the physical world, including the subset whom I have been honored to have as partners, I write the following.

Many speeches or essays (including this one) somehow manage to give the impression that submissive females are child-like. Less rational, mature, or capable human beings. I object to this implication, and I object on the basis of fact.

For every adult female submissive who behaves like a 14 year old girl with her first boyfriend, there is an adult male Dominant who behaves like a 14 year old boy chasing his first pair of tits.

For every submissive who grasps for a Dom, any Dom, just because he's a Dom, there is a non-kinky person grasping for a rich guy, any rich guy, just because he is rich.

For every submissive who is clearly in love with a distorted, fantasy-filled, Harlequin-style vision of her role in her own relationship, there is a Dom who is absolutely convinced of his own magnificent superiority and super spectacular fabulousness simply because he has a woman kneeling at his feet.

I have noticed that when a female submissive behaves in irrational, immature, or fantasy-filled ways, many people rush to find excuses for her behavior. Yet when a male Dominant acts the same way, people just call him an ass.

I frankly don't see a difference. Irrational, immature, fantasy-filled behavior is just that, regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the person involved.

There may be valid explanations for such behavior at any given point in time. But my observation is that the behavior itself is reflective of an individual's personality much more so than anything else.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... I'm really exhausted by the endless proscriptions that it's the Dom's job to bolster the sub, pet her endlessly on the head, and cave in to every demand for attention or you're a callous bastard.
...

Oh yes, good point. I can't agree more.

I love your posts, Netz.

 

[FurryFury]

IMO, what one feels is one thing.

What one chooses todo about it is another.

The doing part is where maturity and immaturity show themselves irrespective of actual chronological age, D/s role and so on.

Fury

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Thank you all for your interesting replies-- I'm trying t make up my mind about this-- as good as I can--
In a vanilla relationship, if anyone would behave that way I would think them a bit crazy. What I try to find out out is: Is that craziness soemwhat normal for a virginal sub?

It is close to impossible to convince my X that ze should calm down a bit-- I'm worried for hir, that ze will go out and get into unsafe situations--
I had no idea that online stuff could cause that in anyone, break that loose-- or I would never have engaged in it--

Any ideas? Or does ze have to work this out on hir own and the best thing that I can do is stay away?

Fury-- If you happen to see those older threads-- I'd be very interested--

*worried*
Bredon

i am pretty positive this is not only an online thing. sub frenzy i simply when a 'new' submissive learns who he/she is for the first time and is eager to find the Dom to make it happen so eager that he/she falls for the first one and ignores any and all red flags. as far as being 'normal' for a new sub? i guess it's 'common' here is a link about sub frenzy, maybe it will help? http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/Lifestyle/sub_frenzies.htm

 

[neonflux]

Hi Bredon,

Coming off of my experience with going so deeply into surrender (sub space), not just once now, but twice (2nd time with my primary, but not within a strictly BDSM context), and knowing myself for a very balanced person who is very independent and usually confident and secure, I have to echo what others have said about sub-frenzy being a phenomenon that occurs in real life.

I was surprised at the neediness I felt the first time I surrendered so deeply - kept apologizing to my play partner because it is a state that is so alien to me. I can understand coming out of deep subspace and feeling frenzied - not only because of the endorphin rush and then crash, but also because of something that happens on a very deep, spiritual level.

To me, the state of absolute surrender was so restful and secure and completely intimate and utterly vulnerable and open, that when I came out of it, I felt bereft, empty, utterly alone... I desperately wanted either to return to that deep state (to fall into "frenzy) or to close myself off, to zip myself up from the world to which I still felt so open and vulnerable. I suspect that because I am primarily Domme in nature, that is why I chose not to sink into the sort of "frenzy" which so drew me. It may have been that draw that scared me the most, because ultimately I am not one who enjoys being out of control.

The whole sub-drop experience, which helps me to understand the frenzy spoken of here and in the wonderful threads that Rebecca bumped, was very similar to the mystical state first named "Dark Night of the Soul" by St. John of the Cross, a Carmelite priest in the 16th century. It was also something described by other midieval mystics, such as St Theresa, whose spiritual writings centered on an erotic surrender to God. Here is a more modern take on it:

http://www.themystic.org/dark-night/

I hope that I'm not rambling and that this is of some help.

Regarding what one should do / how far one's responsibility goes towards taking care of one's sub in this instance, I don't think I can answer that yet as my kink partner is also switch but primarily Dom and my primary is also very switch (not into S/m but definitely, we're learning, into erotic D/s). Since non of us is wired for that deep submission/surrender in an ongoing way, I have no experience with dealing with someone who would fall into it.

That said, after having gone through the "darkness" that I think could have dragged me into a frenzy had I been wired differently, I think that there has to be some joint responsibility, although I can definitely agree with some of the more experienced Dominant folks that I would get tired of feeling solely responsible for taking care of a continually sub-frenzied lover's needs. Especially if my own needs weren't getting met, also. I am just finishing up the 2nd half of The New Topping Book and have to agree that in a responsible adult relationship, both parties have the right to expect to have their needs met... It would seem that both compassion and clear communication would help?

Regarding someone who refuses to take some responsibility for hir own actions, especially after your relationship is over, that is a more difficult question. I doubt, btw, that it is only common for virginal subs, although I would guess that anyone who is a stable individual and a more experienced sub would eventually desire and so learn to control and redirect those impulses hirself...

Hope this made some sense???

Neon

Hey,

as you might have noticed, I am a fledgling dom with only little experience. I always had friends who were into BDSM, I went to some public play parties in my 20s, I had a masochist lover once etc. recently I had an online relationship with a sub who was equally inexperienced.
During the relationship ze turned more and more needy and irrational. Ze felt overwhelmed by hir desire, a desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh (for technical reasons).

I used to think that ze was just a bit unstable, but then I have found several texts about "sub frenzy" and the neediness of subs, esp. "virgin" subs, that they fall in love with their first dom easily etc.--

(see f.e. here:
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/Lifestyle/sub_frenzies.htm )

As I havs never heard about these phenomena from my RL BDSM friends I have been wondering:

What is it about that? Is that common? Or does it happen only to poeple who would behave similarly in a vanilla relationship?
How about the "addiction" factor? Can it really overwhelm you?

Being a dom, I'm more on the controlled side, and hir "frenzy" made me even cooler, which made hir more frenzied, etc. which feels like an unhealthy spiral to me.

What do you think about it all?

And if it is common, how do your deal with it (both as a sub, or as a dom)?


Bredon, aka the Worrier

 

[incubus'_sub]

Oh phht !! JM is right, any flavour of irrational behaviour is irrational & it's more about the emotional immaturity of the people involved than whether they are subs or Doms.

Not once, in real life, have I met a new sub, or Dom for that matter, who became so overwhelmed with their feelings that they turned into stupid, gushy, irresponsible children. Excited, yes but frenzied - no way.

In real life no new Dom is going to command any respect from the community if he carries on like an idiot. One of the things that makes a Dom is control. If they can't control themselves they have no chance of controlling a sub.

In real life most Doms would steer clear of any giggly, gushy, needy "new" subs. Why, because for this type of person it's all about them & their newly discovered needs & has very little, if anything, to do with submission. Oh yes, they've read all the stories & it makes them horny. They can write long, infinitely spew inducing tributes to their lurve, they long to sleep chained to the wall etc etc etc, but put them in a real life situation & if they don't get exactly the right amount of spanking to suit THEM, then they can get really nasty, really fast & become quite dangerous due to their immaturity.

As JM said, it's not the flavour of the relationship that matters, but the maturity, or lack of it, which will determine whether or not it's a success.

 

[Aeroil]

In real life most Doms would steer clear of any giggly, gushy, needy "new" subs. Why, because for this type of person it's all about them & their newly discovered needs & has very little, if anything, to do with submission. Oh yes, they've read all the stories & it makes them horny. They can write long, infinitely spew inducing tributes to their lurve, they long to sleep chained to the wall etc etc etc, but put them in a real life situation & if they don't get exactly the right amount of spanking to suit THEM, then they can get really nasty, really fast & become quite dangerous due to their immaturity.

'tis not an admirable Dom/me that a new sub need worry about.

 

[neonflux]

Oh phht !! JM is right, any flavour of irrational behaviour is irrational & it's more about the emotional immaturity of the people involved than whether they are subs or Doms.

Not once, in real life, have I met a new sub, or Dom for that matter, who became so overwhelmed with their feelings that they turned into stupid, gushy, irresponsible children. Excited, yes but frenzied - no way.

In real life no new Dom is going to command any respect from the community if he carries on like an idiot. One of the things that makes a Dom is control. If they can't control themselves they have no chance of controlling a sub.

In real life most Doms would steer clear of any giggly, gushy, needy "new" subs. Why, because for this type of person it's all about them & their newly discovered needs & has very little, if anything, to do with submission. Oh yes, they've read all the stories & it makes them horny. They can write long, infinitely spew inducing tributes to their lurve, they long to sleep chained to the wall etc etc etc, but put them in a real life situation & if they don't get exactly the right amount of spanking to suit THEM, then they can get really nasty, really fast & become quite dangerous due to their immaturity.

As JM said, it's not the flavour of the relationship that matters, but the maturity, or lack of it, which will determine whether or not it's a success.

incubus'_sub, I understand JMs comment about endless neediness being immature. However, I think that there is a huge difference between taking care of someone who has surrendered on a very deep level, and giving into the selfishness of someone who just hasn't been spanked hard enough to suit them... The two are entirely different animals.

My own take is that the reason that aftercare is viewed as being so important within a BDSM context - for both PLY and ply - is that the intimacy that results from BDSM exchange is potentially much more intense than that experienced during a typical vanilla encounter, particularly during deep/shadow play where we explore profound and often difficult aspects of ourselves.

My experience with real subdrop was something I've only felt once - and it resulted from the very deep surrender I gave to my kink partner as a gift. This surrender was totally different from submission - one can obey orders to the letter and never "Top from the bottom" without submitting so deeply emotionally.

If I weren't more wired for Dominance and control, I don't know that I mightn't have fallen into sub-frenzy after my experience with sub drop. I am not suggesting that an individual who falls into such frenzy (either Tob or sub) isn't partially responsible for bringing themselves out of it, nor am I suggesting that this is a healthy state - I don't believe that it is. I am suggesting that it is something which requires compassion and communication and, depending upon what brings the frenzy on, incurs a mutual responsibility. Certainly the ability to take care of one another, and the willingness to do so, is also the sign of a mature relationship.

I decided after my subdrop experience that when Topping, I would never leave a bottom so vulnerable without having the time and space to take care of them. I am fortunate that my kink partner was so open to letting me spend the night for the next few nights after. I didn't seek to prolongue my "dark night" by demanding more submission, btw, I just wanted closeness, and the emotional support he provided me helped me to find myself again.

I think that he benefitted by the aftercare he provided me as well - he was deeply sadistic that night and my request for aftercare, and my expressed appreciation for him responding so kindly, gave him an opportunity to get back in tough with that part of himself that is also deeply loving.

I can easily see how people who go through a similarly deep experience without getting the necessary aftercare (Top and bottom) might become frenzied, and I can also understand how it might be a more common experience with individuals who are engaged in online D/s, since any aftercare wouldn't include physical touch.

Respectfully,
Neon

 

[Bredon]

Thank you everybody again, this is much food for thought and I will have to read it again and think--

I would just like to add that this relationship came out of a genuine personal rapport/friendship that built up over months and where we discovered that we both had an old longing to be sub/dom, that slowly sneaked its way into the relationship. The reason why there can't be physical fullfillment was in some ways unforeseen, and it was deeply depressing for both of us-- up until that became evident, everything was still in the "mature" range, but after that, things deteriorated-- and ze was taken over by the emotions I have described.

Bredon

 

[Bredon]

Neon--

I think that he benefitted by the aftercare he provided me as well - he was deeply sadistic that night and my request for aftercare, and my expressed appreciation for him responding so kindly, gave him an opportunity to get back in tough with that part of himself that is also deeply loving.

I can easily see how people who go through a similarly deep experience without getting the necessary aftercare (Top and bottom) might become frenzied, and I can also understand how it might be a more common experience with individuals who are engaged in online D/s, since any aftercare wouldn't include physical touch.

Thank you so much for that reply. I think I can relate and understand.
What you write makes sense--

Bredon

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm really exhausted by the endless proscriptions that it's the Dom's job to bolster the sub, pet her endlessly on the head, and cave in to every demand for attention or you're a callous bastard.

I can dig it.

 

[JMohegan]

i am pretty positive this is not only an online thing. sub frenzy i simply when a 'new' submissive learns who he/she is for the first time and is eager to find the Dom to make it happen so eager that he/she falls for the first one and ignores any and all red flags. as far as being 'normal' for a new sub? i guess it's 'common' here is a link about sub frenzy, maybe it will help? http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/Lifestyle/sub_frenzies.htm

I have no idea about what goes on in the world of online D/s, other than what I read on this board.

However, I do have experience in the physical world. And what I will say about the physical world is this.

It is no more common for a submissive to be "so eager that he/she falls for the first one and ignores any and all red flags" than it is for any other person of any other sexual proclivity, orientation, preference, or role to do so.

Non-kinky people do this just as often as kinky people do.

Dominants and switches do this just as often as submissives do.

Why some feel the need to label this phenomenon as if it is peculiar to submissives is something that I really do not understand.