Study: Preists not pedophiles, it's the liberals fault.

[xssve]

Is anybody surprised by that?

 

[3113]

Well, on the plus side, they do debunk that homosexuality had anything to do with it Nice of them to confirm that.

But really, they seem to think that there was more such abuse in the 60's and 70's? All they really know is that 30 years after those times people finally decided to go public with these stories and make the church accountable for them. NOT that there was more of this than in times when no one talked about it or dared try to take the church to court over it.

I have a feeling that there wasn't "more" such abuse in the 60's and 70's then at other times in the Church's 2000 year old history. It's just that now it's finally seen as abuse, finally talked about as abuse, and the church is finally getting asked to take responsibility for it rather than being able to make people keep quiet about it and suffer in silence. Which makes it *seem* like there was less but really, there wasn't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Aside from the content, which was interesting on its own merits, I'm not impressed with your title.

People jump on studies, and trumpet their findings as if they are the final answer to a problem-- then they blame science when it turns out that the data was only data, and not the Word Of God after all.

Please, stop promoting this false notion of what science is and does, okay? It isn't good for anyone.

 

[xssve]

Did you forget who you're talking to?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Did you forget who you're talking to?

What makes you so speshul? You have a brain, use it.

 

[xssve]

You're sarcasm detector switched off today?

But really, they seem to think that there was more such abuse in the 60's and 70's? All they really know is that 30 years after those times people finally decided to go public with these stories and make the church accountable for them. NOT that there was more of this than in times when no one talked about it or dared try to take the church to court over it.

I have a feeling that there wasn't "more" such abuse in the 60's and 70's then at other times in the Church's 2000 year old history. It's just that now it's finally seen as abuse, finally talked about as abuse, and the church is finally getting asked to take responsibility for it rather than being able to make people keep quiet about it and suffer in silence. Which makes it *seem* like there was less but really, there wasn't.

All true, my criticism however, is that as an apologia, it falls way short of confession, its more like, "yeah", it happened, but they made us do it"!

In short, instead of an apology and confession, it's just another political jab at liberalism, nothing about why they felt the need to conceal it and protect the priests involved, like "really, they were doing all they could" - as if.

Neh, wrong answer, if you ask me.

Well, on the plus side, they do debunk that homosexuality had anything to do with it Nice of them to confirm that.

There is that, and it's worth making a note of.

 

[Verdad]

Did you forget who you're talking to?

A Manichean dualist?

 

[sr71plt]

A Manichean dualist?

I think xssve means we're supposed to believe and post in doctrinaire teams here.

 

[lovecraft68]

All this just proves is that the damn Catholics, who bend any word of the bible to fit their own agenda, somehow decided that the one thing they would take to heart would be the crap about being married to the church.

If the Catholics let their priests marry like most other religions let their clergy do this would not happen as much. Of course there would still be instances but I'm sure less. Then again maybe the collar attracts Ped's hiding in plain site so to speak.

Personally I won't even refer to a priest as "Father"

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

But that verse they pay no attention to of course.

Anyway if you are bored and up for some "light reading" here is some interesting stuff:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/catholic_vs_bible.htm

 

[ishtat]

A Manichean dualist?

Hmmf, another Zurvanist heretic!

 

[3113]

Anyway if you are bored and up for some "light reading" here is some interesting stuff:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/catholic_vs_bible.htm

Wow. I'm guessing the guy who wrote up that website had a bad time in Catholic school or with his Catholic family or a nun or a priest. What he has to say is interesting, but wasn't all this stuff argued back in the earliest days of the church? And later in the 1500's with the rise of Lutheranism and then the puritans? And as it turned out, getting rid of the statues, the Mary worship, the priests, etc. didn't make things any nicer, did they?

A corrupt cult leader, married or not, sworn to celibacy or not, called "father" or not, worshiping statues or not, will abuse his flock; power is something you don't want to give him because he's one of those types who is going to view his followers as his toys, not as people he must do right by. And it really doesn't matter if he's part of a very big cult, like the Catholic Church, or a very little cult like Heaven's Gate. That's the way it is, and it's stupid to imagine that if the Catholic Church or any other Church just did x, y or z (like weren't celibate) that would change.

All we can say for sure that the Catholic Church should have done was to have been vigilant and responsible in regards to this type. They weren't. They were willfully blind and irresponsible. And that's why there was so much of it.

 

[hottchic]

The truth is that the church heirarchy is becoming alienated from it's congregation.

Many professed catholics do not trust the priesthood anymore and because of some of their behavior, particularly in respect to the child abuse cases.

The current Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, is no help at all, and despite coming from Germany a relatively forward looking country in Europe. This Pope is more set in his ways than previous pontifs.

He scored an own goal, in trying to say that the number of Jews killed in concentration camps in the second world war under Hitler was greatly exagerated, this was not only an embarrasment for the catholic church, but also his fellow countrymen given that he is German.

Then he continued with his foot in mouth disease by telling people in the Phillipenes, a catholic country with a population explosion, that using contraception was a sin LOL.

 

[TE999]

Catholic priests not being allowed to marry was the Church's way of inheriting any loot a priest may have accumulated during his lifetime, as many did during the 1200's to the 1700's. Buggering altar boys was an extra perk of the job.

 

[lovecraft68]

The truth is that the church heirarchy is becoming alienated from it's congregation.

Many professed catholics do not trust the priesthood anymore and because of some of their behavior, particularly in respect to the child abuse cases.

The current Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, is no help at all, and despite coming from Germany a relatively forward looking country in Europe. This Pope is more set in his ways than previous pontifs.

He scored an own goal, in trying to say that the number of Jews killed in concentration camps in the second world war under Hitler was greatly exagerated, this was not only an embarrasment for the catholic church, but also his fellow countrymen given that he is German.

Then he continued with his foot in mouth disease by telling people in the Phillipenes, a catholic country with a population explosion, that using contraception was a sin LOL.

The pope is the false prophet. The figure head of the church that will become the one world religion.The church that will take league with the anti christ and begin persecuting those who don;t follow its teaching.

Doubt me? What were the crusades? The Catholics using their religion as an excuse to kill, torture, rape and of course take money from whoever they wanted to. God and Catholic in the same sentence is like an oxy moron.

 

[lovecraft68]

Catholic priests not being allowed to marry was the Church's way of inheriting any loot a priest may have accumulated during his lifetime, as many did during the 1200's to the 1700's. Buggering altar boys was an extra perk of the job.

What can I say? Sad but true. Up until recently they were beyond reproach now they are becoming reviled. Ruins it for the good ones.

 

[lovecraft68]

Wow. I'm guessing the guy who wrote up that website had a bad time in Catholic school or with his Catholic family or a nun or a priest. What he has to say is interesting, but wasn't all this stuff argued back in the earliest days of the church? And later in the 1500's with the rise of Lutheranism and then the puritans? And as it turned out, getting rid of the statues, the Mary worship, the priests, etc. didn't make things any nicer, did they?

A corrupt cult leader, married or not, sworn to celibacy or not, called "father" or not, worshiping statues or not, will abuse his flock; power is something you don't want to give him because he's one of those types who is going to view his followers as his toys, not as people he must do right by. And it really doesn't matter if he's part of a very big cult, like the Catholic Church, or a very little cult like Heaven's Gate. That's the way it is, and it's stupid to imagine that if the Catholic Church or any other Church just did x, y or z (like weren't celibate) that would change.

All we can say for sure that the Catholic Church should have done was to have been vigilant and responsible in regards to this type. They weren't. They were willfully blind and irresponsible. And that's why there was so much of it.

In the end to over simplify. Faith is faith but religion is big business. All the Christian denominations believe in the same god but they want you to "buy from their store"

I follow Levay who admittedly became as big of a sell out as any other religion but difference was his doctrine was about doing for yourself so it sort of fit. He went from original to trendy when it was cool in the sixties to belong to the church of Satan to an outright sell out when he showed up on the hotel California album.

Personally though I will still take his statements and rules and principles as a better basic way to live then the endless doctrine and interpretations of Christianity.

 

[Guest]

Mass media effect

deleted

 

[sr71plt]

I think we've only seen the tip of this iceberg in the Protestant churches as well. A Lutheran assistant pastor/youth director in a local church recent got caught in a kiddie porn sting (and his wife is a daughter of Billy Graham).

 

[3113]

Doubt me? What were the crusades? The Catholics using their religion as an excuse to kill, torture, rape and of course take money from whoever they wanted to. God and Catholic in the same sentence is like an oxy moron.

I don't know that it was an excuse to torture and rape. Kill, yes. Catholicism was scared of the power of the Moorish folk and Islam which were taking over. They had to raise armies to fight on their side and protect them, and so a big "crusade" to save them was in order. But the Old Testament Bible certainly allows that. The Canaaniites got wiped out down to the last man (literally), women and children slaughtered wholesale on god's command. So I don't see how god and Catholic can be an oxymoron if god is synonymous with wholesale slaughter as he is in the old testament.

That said, I really can't see Catholicism becoming the world religion that pairs up with the anti-christ. It's just not that popular any more and really seems to be on it's way out. Mormonism, on the other hand....

 

[TE999]

I think we've only seen the tip of this iceberg in the Protestant churches as well. A Lutheran assistant pastor/youth director in a local church recent got caught in a kiddie porn sting (and his wife is a daughter of Billy Graham).

In other news...Responding to multiple charges of Pedophilia with underage members of his congregation, Reverend Sawyer Browneye, pastor of The Church of God and Snake Handling in Dry Rot, Alabama, plead insanity saying "He was crazy about that young stuff."

 

[xssve]

A Manichean dualist?

I'm a Tantric dualist baby, you can get all Shakti on me - show me your Kundalini!

 

[stephen55]

The 300-page report, formally called “The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States, 1950-2010,”

So far, we are just getting snippets and general statements from what is a 300 page report.

Also, note that the study only looked at the years 1950-2010.

The huge spike in abuse cases in the 1960s and 1970s, the authors found, was essentially due to emotionally ill-equipped priests who were trained in earlier years and lost their way in the social cataclysm of the sexual revolution.

Indeed, the John Jay researchers write, “Individual characteristics do not predict that a priest will commit sexual abuse of a minor. Rather, vulnerabilities, in combination with situational stresses and opportunities, raise the risk of abuse.”

The “situational” nature of the abuse by clergy is comparable to that of police
officers who brutalize people, the authors write. The stress of the work, the perils of isolation and a lack of oversight are factors that contribute to “deviant behavior.”

http://www.religionnews.com/index.php?/rnstext/exclusive_no_easy_answers_to_catholic_abuse_scandal/

Not having access to the entire report, I can make only general comments on the methodology, the data or the conclusion. That said, already people are lining up with criticism.

Terence McKiernan calls that the Woodstock defense.

"A lot of us went through the '60s, and very few of us reacted to the pressures of that interesting decade by sexually abusing children," McKiernan says.

McKiernan heads the watchdog group BishopAccountability.org. He believes the report, which was partly paid for and overseen by the church, is flawed top to bottom. But what gets McKiernan really mad is what principal investigator Terry calls the report's central finding: that this is not a problem of pedophilia.

The researchers define pedophilia as abuse of anyone 10 or under, and by that definition, only 22 percent of the cases fall in that category. But McKiernan notes that the American Psychiatric Association puts the line at anyone under 14.

"And in fact," McKiernan says, "when you draw the line in the correct place, it turns out that 60 percent of the victims were aged 13 or younger. In other words, 60 percent of the victims were victims of pedophile abuse."

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/18/136436728/catholic-bishops-release-sex-abuse-report

Conclusions of a study can only be as good as the underlying data and methodology of the study.

Coming up with a reason for the recent spike in child abuse by priests without having any firm data on the past rate of child abuse by priests makes we wonder if there was a recent spike in the first place. And if there was a spike, just how much of a spike?

As for the study's conclusion that this abuse was not paedophilia...

“Priest-abusers were not `pedophile priests’,” the researchers state flatly.

http://www.religionnews.com/index.php?/rnstext/exclusive_no_easy_answers_to_catholic_abuse_scandal/

...this is simply a misuse of definitions.

The report used a cutoff of pre-pubescence as the definition of paedophilia, while others, such as the American Psychiatric Association uses the age of 14 as a cutoff. Given that the majority of victims (60%) were aged 13 or younger, I call it 60% paedophilia.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I accede to your opinion.. Please say that add that religion and love is pointed is life's en suite arrays.. Still there is so many interesting thing stand bying come to meet us....

hello, spambot.

 

[TE999]

hello, spambot.

*BEEP!...whirrr...click...* "Hello meatware...I am pleased you liked my message...I do sound quite human don't I...*click-whirr* "Resistance is futile...futile...futile...futile..." *whirr...click...BEEP!*

 

[bronzeage]

I have read some excerpts from the report. One part of of it claims there were no markers on young priests which would identify those who would later become abusers. This seems to lift some of the burden off the Bishops, who have been accused of recruiting pedophiles to the priesthood.

All professions have a percentage of pedophiles and other forms of sexual abusers. It's simple math. The difference in the Catholic Church and other organizations is stark. The Church has a culture which accepts weakness and believes in redemption. Man is weak and with God's grace, he can be redeemed.

What this means in the real world is what led to this disaster. When an abusing priest was discovered, the culture forbid casting him out, if he submitted to the culture. All he had to do was be penitent and follow the instruction of his superiors. It was possible to be washed clean of the sin and return to his vocation. This led to priests being sent to a parish where he was unknown and soon the pattern was repeated.

One thing the report does make clear and cannot be mitigated: throughout the 70's, 80's and into the 90's, the Church's great concern was for the welfare of the abusing priests and not for the victims.